Alternatives to lead ammo

[MG5150]

Hello Everyone

Victoria has just proposed an immediate ban on lead ammo for game birds and intends to extend this ban to deer by 2028.

I've only recently taken up hunting again after a long absence and wanted to ask some of the more informed people here about alternative ammunition.

My understanding is that alternatives to lead are not readily available in higher calibres. I hunt with a 30-06. What current alternatives do I have to lead ammunition (here in Victoria the minimum calibre is 270 with 130g bullets for Sambar).

Many would speculate that the government is trying to ban the ammo so you can't hunt with higher calibres and then use that precedent to say hunting is no longer a means for valid firearms ownership in Victoria. I'd like to raise awareness of the issue with hunters and gun owners and compel them to fight the ban on lead ammunition but it has to be done with the truth rather than fear-mongering.

Any advice on non-lead ammunition for higher calibre guns is much appreciated.

PS, you can have your say on the issue here:

https://engage.vic.gov.au/proposed-wild ... OaSwZJw2Sg

[mchughcb]

It's you isn't it Peter.

[Oldbloke]

It's a scam. There is zero scientific proof it's required. They just try to brain wash people by using the word "toxic". They rely in people's lack of knowledge in the area. It's just scare mongering IMO.

e.g. salt is non-toxic but will kill you, same applies to water. Just all based on misinformation and lies.

BUT, you still need to get a submission in before the dead line.

[bladeracer]

I thought lead has been banned for some years now for game birds?

The common alternative bullet materials are monolithic zinc, copper, or brass. As long as you can protect the rifling from damage (paper-patching for example) you can use just about anything for bullets, wood, plastic, steel, aluminium, batteries, nails, concrete, hot-glue, etc.

I would think these alternatives are more readily available in 30-cal and bigger, the smaller calibers are a bit more limited.

One issue is the minimum bullet weight called for in the regs. All of the alternatives (except tungsten and bismuth) are less dense than lead. In 7mm for example a 130gn bullet in brass is very long and may not stabilise in standard twist rate barrels. I machined copies of the 162gn ELDM in brass and they only weigh 149gn from memory.

I doubt you'd have any issue getting copper or brass bullets in .30-cal, try Outer Edge for locally-made bullets.
https://outeredgeprojectiles.com.au/product-category/bullets/hunting-bullets/

That would be ridiculous, if they want to ban hunting it would be far easier to simply ban it, there'd be no point in trying to sneak it through this way.

Hello Everyone

Victoria has just proposed an immediate ban on lead ammo for game birds and intends to extend this ban to deer by 2028.

I've only recently taken up hunting again after a long absence and wanted to ask some of the more informed people here about alternative ammunition.

My understanding is that alternatives to lead are not readily available in higher calibres. I hunt with a 30-06. What current alternatives do I have to lead ammunition (here in Victoria the minimum calibre is 270 with 130g bullets for Sambar).

Many would speculate that the government is trying to ban the ammo so you can't hunt with higher calibres and then use that precedent to say hunting is no longer a means for valid firearms ownership in Victoria. I'd like to raise awareness of the issue with hunters and gun owners and compel them to fight the ban on lead ammunition but it has to be done with the truth rather than fear-mongering.

Any advice on non-lead ammunition for higher calibre guns is much appreciated.

PS, you can have your say on the issue here:

https://engage.vic.gov.au/proposed-wild ... OaSwZJw2Sg

[17Dave]

Just about all manufacturers produce a non lead option. In rifles it's typically copper or an alloy of. Are they as effective as lead, I'm not convinced but they are a viable alternative and are listed as non toxic.
If Vic is heading down the path then other states will follow the leader at some point. We should all make a submission on this, although I'm not sure there is a valid argument against the ban.

[Oldbloke]

Just about all manufacturers produce a non lead option. In rifles it's typically copper or an alloy of. Are they as effective as lead, I'm not convinced but they are a viable alternative and are listed as non toxic.
If Vic is heading down the path then other states will follow the leader at some point. We should all make a submission on this, although I'm not sure there is a valid argument against the ban.

Well, actually there is no valid reason for the ban.

Wind farms = 43
Lead from bullets= 0

Screenshot_20240724-210410_Samsung Notes.jpg (97.67 KiB) Viewed 4393 times

[bladeracer]

Just about all manufacturers produce a non lead option. In rifles it's typically copper or an alloy of. Are they as effective as lead, I'm not convinced but they are a viable alternative and are listed as non toxic.
If Vic is heading down the path then other states will follow the leader at some point. We should all make a submission on this, although I'm not sure there is a valid argument against the ban.

I'm with Oldbloke, if they want to change the law they should have some evidence for doing so, and I've seen nothing at all.

[Oldbloke]

All they have is:
Eagles killed by wind farms with some lead contamination.
No evidence of what level is dangerous to Eagles.
No proof it's from lead contaminated meat?
No proof any have died from lead poisoning.
No proof it's effecting life span
No proof it effects reproduction.

IMHO they have proven SFA.

SSAA and the other hunting bodies need to hire a toxicology expert of other expert to counter their bogus claims.

[Oldbloke]

There is actually a very sensible alternative.

Require all hunters to dispose of lead contaminated meat responsibility.
e.g bury it or off to the local rubbish tip.

P.S. I wonder much 1080 is contamination our soil?
And killing natives?

[Jorlcrin]

There is actually a very sensible alternative.

Require all hunters to dispose of lead contaminated meat responsibility.
e.g bury it or off to the local rubbish tip.

P.S. I wonder much 1080 is contamination our soil?
And killing natives?

You...Do know that 1080 (Sodium Fluroacetate) was first discovered in Australia, in a large number of native plants?
It's a poison that occurs here in the wild, and I suspect you'll find it breaks down just fine.
One reason it's been so heavily used on dogs/cats/pigs etc, is that many of the native animals have a high tolerance to it, so a much lower dose will nobble the introduced animals.
I'm not saying using 1080 doesnt present some problems(quolls penguins), but to suggest it stays in the soil,is a bit over the top.

[bigpete]

There is actually a very sensible alternative.

Require all hunters to dispose of lead contaminated meat responsibility.
e.g bury it or off to the local rubbish tip.

P.S. I wonder much 1080 is contamination our soil?
And killing natives?

You...Do know that 1080 (Sodium Fluroacetate) was first discovered in Australia, in a large number of native plants?
It's a poison that occurs here in the wild, and I suspect you'll find it breaks down just fine.
One reason it's been so heavily used on dogs/cats/pigs etc, is that many of the native animals have a high tolerance to it, so a much lower dose will nobble the introduced animals.
I'm not saying using 1080 doesnt present some problems(quolls penguins), but to suggest it stays in the soil,is a bit over the top.

This ^^^^

[Oldbloke]

There is actually a very sensible alternative.

Require all hunters to dispose of lead contaminated meat responsibility.
e.g bury it or off to the local rubbish tip.

P.S. I wonder much 1080 is contamination our soil?
And killing natives?

You...Do know that 1080 (Sodium Fluroacetate) was first discovered in Australia, in a large number of native plants?
It's a poison that occurs here in the wild, and I suspect you'll find it breaks down just fine.
One reason it's been so heavily used on dogs/cats/pigs etc, is that many of the native animals have a high tolerance to it, so a much lower dose will nobble the introduced animals.
I'm not saying using 1080 doesnt present some problems(quolls penguins), but to suggest it stays in the soil,is a bit over the top.

Actually I don't know. It was just a thought

[MG5150]

Thanks for such a detailed response! I am going to check out the ammo now.

\
That would be ridiculous, if they want to ban hunting it would be far easier to simply ban it, there'd be no point in trying to sneak it through this way.

They recently tried to ban duck hunting in Vic but faced too much of a pushback from hunters and backed off.

If you look at all the new proposals at the website I linked you'll find one of them is funding to turn more duck hunting habitat into 'shared recreation areas in line with Vic's Great Outdoors plan' by adding campsites which I interpreted as "we can't outright ban duckhunting so we're going to rezone a few areas so you can't hunt there.

Similarly, they are trying to push through the new Great Forest National Park and are going to include a dozen existing state forests where you are free to hunt all year round into the new giant park where there will be no hunting.

Bowhunting has also just been banned in SA and new gun laws have just been passed over in Perth.

call me crazy but hunting and gun ownership appears to be under attack.

[MG5150]

I wrote a short essay 'An Argument For The Continue Use Of Lead Ammunition In Victoria;

You can read it here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BxG ... sp=sharing

[Larry]

They may force themselves down a much worse rabbit hole. shooter being the DYI and give it try type of guys will make up all sorts of alternatives. Australia has plenty of Uranium I hear it works pretty well as a Tip coat it with a bit of brass and were off to the races all types of stuff that process could be applied to

[bladeracer]

Duck hunting is back for now, they'll keep trying and eventually they'll get it through.

I'm hopeful that the message is getting out to the general public that will stop this national park rubbish, but even if we stop it it's only a matter of time until it gets pushed through. They usually change state forests into national parks very quietly, before anybody can put up a protest.

Bowhunting is now technically banned in SA but when I looked at the proposal I couldn't see that it actually stopped about 99% of bowhunters from continuing hunting. I haven't looked at what they finally pushed through though.

Yes, hunting, in all forms, and firearm ownership particularly, has been under attack for at least forty years I think.

Thanks for such a detailed response! I am going to check out the ammo now.

\
That would be ridiculous, if they want to ban hunting it would be far easier to simply ban it, there'd be no point in trying to sneak it through this way.

They recently tried to ban duck hunting in Vic but faced too much of a pushback from hunters and backed off.

If you look at all the new proposals at the website I linked you'll find one of them is funding to turn more duck hunting habitat into 'shared recreation areas in line with Vic's Great Outdoors plan' by adding campsites which I interpreted as "we can't outright ban duckhunting so we're going to rezone a few areas so you can't hunt there.

Similarly, they are trying to push through the new Great Forest National Park and are going to include a dozen existing state forests where you are free to hunt all year round into the new giant park where there will be no hunting.

Bowhunting has also just been banned in SA and new gun laws have just been passed over in Perth.

call me crazy but hunting and gun ownership appears to be under attack.

[Oldbloke]

Yes, hunting, in all forms, and firearm ownership particularly, has been under attack for at least forty years I think.

100%

I assume SSAA is still working away in the background?

[animalpest]

There is actually a very sensible alternative.

Require all hunters to dispose of lead contaminated meat responsibility.
e.g bury it or off to the local rubbish tip.

P.S. I wonder much 1080 is contamination our soil?
And killing natives?

You...Do know that 1080 (Sodium Fluroacetate) was first discovered in Australia, in a large number of native plants?
It's a poison that occurs here in the wild, and I suspect you'll find it breaks down just fine.
One reason it's been so heavily used on dogs/cats/pigs etc, is that many of the native animals have a high tolerance to it, so a much lower dose will nobble the introduced animals.
I'm not saying using 1080 doesnt present some problems(quolls penguins), but to suggest it stays in the soil,is a bit over the top.

1080 was not first discovered in Australia. It was first synthesised in a Belgium laboratory in 1896.

[bigpete]

Duck hunting is back for now, they'll keep trying and eventually they'll get it through.

I'm hopeful that the message is getting out to the general public that will stop this national park rubbish, but even if we stop it it's only a matter of time until it gets pushed through. They usually change state forests into national parks very quietly, before anybody can put up a protest.

Bowhunting is now technically banned in SA but when I looked at the proposal I couldn't see that it actually stopped about 99% of bowhunters from continuing hunting. I haven't looked at what they finally pushed through though.

Yes, hunting, in all forms, and firearm ownership particularly, has been under attack for at least forty years I think.

Thanks for such a detailed response! I am going to check out the ammo now.

\
That would be ridiculous, if they want to ban hunting it would be far easier to simply ban it, there'd be no point in trying to sneak it through this way.

They recently tried to ban duck hunting in Vic but faced too much of a pushback from hunters and backed off.

If you look at all the new proposals at the website I linked you'll find one of them is funding to turn more duck hunting habitat into 'shared recreation areas in line with Vic's Great Outdoors plan' by adding campsites which I interpreted as "we can't outright ban duckhunting so we're going to rezone a few areas so you can't hunt there.

Similarly, they are trying to push through the new Great Forest National Park and are going to include a dozen existing state forests where you are free to hunt all year round into the new giant park where there will be no hunting.

Bowhunting has also just been banned in SA and new gun laws have just been passed over in Perth.

call me crazy but hunting and gun ownership appears to be under attack.

NO ITS NOT ! FFS !
Its still legal to bowhunt till the 1st of December this year. Wish people would stop perpetuating the myth,its bad enough whats happening as it is

[bigpete]

I for one am going to start shooting depleted uranium projectiles

[bladeracer]

I for one am going to start shooting depleted uranium projectiles

I bought some 5mm and 6mm tungsten rod to paper-patch for .224" and .264" bullets, very heavy and very expensive. Never could bring myself to cut it up though I don't recall the numbers now but it would give me a bullet well over 100gn that would still stabilise in an 8"-twist .223. It's 70% denser than lead, about the same as gold and DU.

[Bugman]

I don't hunt anymore so this type of proposed ban of lead projectiles does not affect me BUT imo, it should not interfer with legit hunters etc. As a pistol shooter, this type of ban could overflow into our sport. Now I know that manufacturers can apparently supply non lead alternatives, but it begs the question of refined accuracy that you get when reloading your own ammo or store bought ammo.......will it perform as well as the loads you have developed using lead. I just don't know.
All I can think of is 10CC playing " load up, load up with rubber bullets" before a match commences.

[Jorlcrin]

There is actually a very sensible alternative.

Require all hunters to dispose of lead contaminated meat responsibility.
e.g bury it or off to the local rubbish tip.

P.S. I wonder much 1080 is contamination our soil?
And killing natives?

You...Do know that 1080 (Sodium Fluroacetate) was first discovered in Australia, in a large number of native plants?
It's a poison that occurs here in the wild, and I suspect you'll find it breaks down just fine.
One reason it's been so heavily used on dogs/cats/pigs etc, is that many of the native animals have a high tolerance to it, so a much lower dose will nobble the introduced animals.
I'm not saying using 1080 doesnt present some problems(quolls penguins), but to suggest it stays in the soil,is a bit over the top.

1080 was not first discovered in Australia. It was first synthesised in a Belgium laboratory in 1896.

There was research underway in the mid-late 1860's, due to unexplained large-scale travelling livestock deaths, after they ingested Heartleaf/Poison Bush.
Australia's chief botanist at the time (Baron Ferdinand Von Meuller[Died Apr 1888], and amongst his duties, was tasked with unravelling the livestock deaths surrounding the Heartleaf bush. In effect, I suspect Baron Von Meuller might have been the gent whom identified the 1080 poison we still use today.)
I'm not suggesting it was first synthesized in Australia, but I do know that they were on the hunt for indentifying it here in Australia, over 20 years before the date you mention.
Baron Ferdinand Von Meuller was also involved in trying to establish the fate of Ludwig Leichardt; an explorer who went walkabout in Outback QLD and never came back.

[MG5150]

I emailed Winchester Australia about the ban. They let me know that they have copper alternatives in 270 @ 130g...

A recent poll in a Victorian deer hunter group with over 1500 responses showed that most popular calibres for hunting sambar are 30-06 (32%) 300 WM (23%) and 308 (15%) with 270 only accounting for 4% of the total

[animalpest]

There is actually a very sensible alternative.

Require all hunters to dispose of lead contaminated meat responsibility.
e.g bury it or off to the local rubbish tip.

P.S. I wonder much 1080 is contamination our soil?
And killing natives?

You...Do know that 1080 (Sodium Fluroacetate) was first discovered in Australia, in a large number of native plants?
It's a poison that occurs here in the wild, and I suspect you'll find it breaks down just fine.
One reason it's been so heavily used on dogs/cats/pigs etc, is that many of the native animals have a high tolerance to it, so a much lower dose will nobble the introduced animals.
I'm not saying using 1080 doesnt present some problems(quolls penguins), but to suggest it stays in the soil,is a bit over the top.

1080 was not first discovered in Australia. It was first synthesised in a Belgium laboratory in 1896.

There was research underway in the mid-late 1860's, due to unexplained large-scale travelling livestock deaths, after they ingested Heartleaf/Poison Bush.
Australia's chief botanist at the time (Baron Ferdinand Von Meuller[Died Apr 1888], and amongst his duties, was tasked with unravelling the livestock deaths surrounding the Heartleaf bush. In effect, I suspect Baron Von Meuller might have been the gent whom identified the 1080 poison we still use today.)
I'm not suggesting it was first synthesized in Australia, but I do know that they were on the hunt for indentifying it here in Australia, over 20 years before the date you mention.
Baron Ferdinand Von Meuller was also involved in trying to establish the fate of Ludwig Leichardt; an explorer who went walkabout in Outback QLD and never came back.

It was known that there were poisonous bushes in WA and the government held this information from those taking stock inland from Perth to start new farming areas. Hence York Road poison. It wasn't identified that 1080 was the poison until the 1940's.

It was not until 1944 that 1080 was first tested as a rodenticide at the Patuxent Wildlife Research Centre and 1950 experiments undertaken in Tasmania on rabbits.

1080 is rapidly broken down by bacteria and fungi.

[deye243]

Thanks for such a detailed response! I am going to check out the ammo now.

\
That would be ridiculous, if they want to ban hunting it would be far easier to simply ban it, there'd be no point in trying to sneak it through this way.

They recently tried to ban duck hunting in Vic but faced too much of a pushback from hunters and backed off.

.

It had nothing to do with hunters ......... it had everything to do with the threat from the unions particularly the CFMEU

[17Dave]

1080 is effective, especially in WA where it occurs naturally and natives have an tolerance to it. A dose that kills a fox won't kill a crow. It's still nasty, but it's effective and I use it.
Lead projectiles I find equally effective on foxes and crows.
The only non lead projectiles I've used on game have been woodleigh hydros. I've found them emphatic on large bovines but that was after they had been incapacited by woodleighs lead based versions.
Regardless of my thoughts and the fact im not from Vic, I've put in a submission on why banning lead is sh!t. Let's see hoe we go.

[stihl88]

I for one am going to start shooting depleted uranium projectiles

I bought some 5mm and 6mm tungsten rod to paper-patch for .224" and .264" bullets, very heavy and very expensive. Never could bring myself to cut it up though I don't recall the numbers now but it would give me a bullet well over 100gn that would still stabilise in an 8"-twist .223. It's 70% denser than lead, about the same as gold and DU.

One could be tempted to spin up some "Rods From God" with Tungsten. ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_0NI3Hc3Zo&t=714s

3.jpg (115.84 KiB) Viewed 3512 times

Then there's this, the "Durahell". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciDkT9orO-Q

4.jpg (90.51 KiB) Viewed 3512 times