Time for laws for self defense?

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Re: Time for laws for self defense?

Post by Rikta » 09 Nov 2017, 10:02 am

ive been saying it for years now, anyone who can get a gun who hasnt yet is a fool

long overdue from having the right to self defense by all means
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Re: Time for laws for self defense?

Post by doc » 09 Nov 2017, 10:04 am

grandadbushy wrote:Before we end this thread I would like to clear something up nowhere in my debate did I suggest that a gun be used to
protect oneself or family my point was that the victim was not treated correctly and only had the same rights as the illegal invader


Indeed. Use of firearms for defense shouldn't even be a suggestion yet. We need to change the governments mindset that the intruder has all the rights to that where the victim has the rights. Firearms aren't even an issue. The self defense problems exists regardless of the tool or weapon used.

But Aussies are two apathetic to even worry about it in general - until it's too late.

The example that was brought up with the person who choked someone else. 2 years for him to be exonerated. That's a disgusting reflection on our current laws and regulations. We should be ashamed.

As for the example of whether or not you can get out of your house without the intruder knowing - that shouldn't play an issue either. (It does with our current laws but it shouldn't). Why should someone have to take that risk of whether they can or not - if there are other options available to them that carry less risk. (And of course, risk could only be determined by the unique circumstances of each situation).

Our government prefers that criminals be armed, and it's constitutants be defenseless and at the mercy of the intruder until / if the police arrive rather than risk any of it's law abiding citizens having the opportunity to have some sort of defense of their own.... even non lethal defense such as spray or tasers.

Why?

On a different matter - I thankfully live in a relatively safe place, but I know of many who don't. And a number of these people have admitted to me on different occasions that they are sourcing or making weapons deemed illegal (not firearms, but other options - some non lethal, others lethal) - to have in their houses because they're concerned about what's going on. These are every day mum and dads with families. Not rednecks.

If the government changed the laws to allow better self defense, and opened up opportunities for people to be registered to own certain tools (tasers and spray being some suggestions) - they'd have more of an idea of what was really going on as well by licenses issued. But instead they're clueless until an incident occurs. Their own regulations are blinding themselves.
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Re: Time for laws for self defense?

Post by trekin » 09 Nov 2017, 11:05 am

Supaduke wrote:There is already laws for this.
Check out section 462a of the crimes act.

Too many people confuse finding someone committing a crime as an excuse to do whatever they like.

You are allowed to defend yourself up to and including lethal force.

Crims do not have 'all the rights'. It's simply due process.

Simply saying "I was defending myself" is not enough. Otherwise people with vendettas would murder people , dump them in the driveway, then tell the cops "yeah I was defending myself".

There is a strange propogation of the myth that you can't defend yourself.

It is bulls**t , plain and simple.

Agree with 99% of what you are saying. However the source of the myth is not strange at all. It is propogated though social media, in forums such as this one, and in FB groups, anywhere where people from across this wide brown land gather to air their two cents. Someone post up a link to the laws relevent to their own State, and some clueless member from some other State takes it as a given that the law stands across all borders, and therefore must be the law in their State as well. Self defence laws are like firearm laws, in that they are different State to State, some are more restrictive, some less so, and some are just too f!#$ked up for words. People need to research the laws relevent to their own State. For example, castle doctrine is alive and well here in my State, a fact that has been upheld by our State's Supreme Court in three of the four cases referred to them over the last 4 -5 years.
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Re: Time for laws for self defense?

Post by Rikta » 09 Nov 2017, 12:50 pm

my suggestion is this is a gun forum, therefore this would be eluding to the right to defend you and yours with a firearm, regardless of the weapon that the intruder is using. if someone is in your house uninvited you have no idea what their motive, to be apathetic and say they probably just want the TV and gaming console is both naive and willfully ignorant at the same time. Anyone without a criminal record or severe mental health issue should be able to acquire a firearm for self/property/family defense as a genuine reason.
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Re: Time for laws for self defense?

Post by iP0kerman » 13 Nov 2017, 5:21 pm

So, the law is quite clear that as a citizen, you have a lawful right to detain someone (AND USE REASONABLE FORCE) that is committing or even that you suspect will be comitting a "arrestable" crime, one that a normal police officer would not have to go to court first to get an arrest warrant for. Breaking and entering is one such offence, and affray/ threat of affray/ assault on you personally or on another you deem the need to protect?
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The power of a person to perform a citizen’s arrest is limited to the circumstances prescribed by ch 58 of the Criminal Code Act 1899 (Qld) (Criminal Code) including where a person:

is called upon by a police officer to assist in the arrest of another person, unless the person called upon knows that there is no reasonable ground for the suspicion (s 546(b))
finds someone committing an offence for which an arrest may be made by police without a warrant (s 546(c))
believes on reasonable grounds that the person has committed an offence for which an arrest may be made by police without a warrant, whether that person has committed the offence or not (s 546(d))
finds another person by night and believes on reasonable grounds that that other person is committing an offence (s 546(e))
believes on reasonable grounds that the property another person offers to sell, pawn or deliver to them has been acquired by means of an offence for which a person may be arrested without a warrant (s 551)
is in command of an aircraft, is on board the aircraft, and persons acting with that person’s authority, find someone committing an offence on the aircraft or believe on reasonable grounds that the person has committed, has attempted to commit or intends to commit an offence in relation to, or affecting the use of, the aircraft (s 547A)
finds someone committing an indictable offence at night (s 549)
finds someone who they believe on reasonable grounds to have committed an offence escaping from another person who they believe on reasonable grounds has the authority to arrest that other person for that offence (s 550).

Any person who witnesses a breach of the peace may intervene to prevent its continuance or renewal. That person may detain any offender and use such force as is reasonably necessary to take them into police custody (s 260 Criminal Code).

A person exercising a power of arrest must be careful not to exceed their limited authority, or the person arrested may sue for wrongful arrest, false imprisonment and assault. Once a citizen’s arrest has been made, the person arrested should, without delay, be handed over to police or a justice of the peace (s 552 Criminal Code) with a full explanation of the reasons for the arrest. A person who makes a citizen’s arrest should be willing to speak to police.
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Re: Time for laws for self defense?

Post by Daddybang » 13 Nov 2017, 6:19 pm

iP0kerman wrote:So, the law is quite clear that as a citizen, you have a lawful right to detain someone (AND USE REASONABLE FORCE) that is committing or even that you suspect will be comitting a "arrestable" crime, one that a normal police officer would not have to go to court first to get an arrest warrant for. Breaking and entering is one such offence, and affray/ threat of affray/ assault on you personally or on another you deem the need to protect?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The power of a person to perform a citizen’s arrest is limited to the circumstances prescribed by ch 58 of the Criminal Code Act 1899 (Qld) (Criminal Code) including where a person:

is called upon by a police officer to assist in the arrest of another person, unless the person called upon knows that there is no reasonable ground for the suspicion (s 546(b))
finds someone committing an offence for which an arrest may be made by police without a warrant (s 546(c))
believes on reasonable grounds that the person has committed an offence for which an arrest may be made by police without a warrant, whether that person has committed the offence or not (s 546(d))
finds another person by night and believes on reasonable grounds that that other person is committing an offence (s 546(e))
believes on reasonable grounds that the property another person offers to sell, pawn or deliver to them has been acquired by means of an offence for which a person may be arrested without a warrant (s 551)
is in command of an aircraft, is on board the aircraft, and persons acting with that person’s authority, find someone committing an offence on the aircraft or believe on reasonable grounds that the person has committed, has attempted to commit or intends to commit an offence in relation to, or affecting the use of, the aircraft (s 547A)
finds someone committing an indictable offence at night (s 549)
finds someone who they believe on reasonable grounds to have committed an offence escaping from another person who they believe on reasonable grounds has the authority to arrest that other person for that offence (s 550).

Any person who witnesses a breach of the peace may intervene to prevent its continuance or renewal. That person may detain any offender and use such force as is reasonably necessary to take them into police custody (s 260 Criminal Code).

A person exercising a power of arrest must be careful not to exceed their limited authority, or the person arrested may sue for wrongful arrest, false imprisonment and assault. Once a citizen’s arrest has been made, the person arrested should, without delay, be handed over to police or a justice of the peace (s 552 Criminal Code) with a full explanation of the reasons for the arrest. A person who makes a citizen’s arrest should be willing to speak to police.


Is this federal or state law? :drinks:
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Re: Time for laws for self defense?

Post by juststarting » 13 Nov 2017, 6:39 pm

Uh, I see we're still beating our chests here... Cool, cool, carry on.
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Re: Time for laws for self defense?

Post by trekin » 14 Nov 2017, 6:50 am

Daddybang wrote:
iP0kerman wrote:So, the law is quite clear that as a citizen, you have a lawful right to detain someone (AND USE REASONABLE FORCE) that is committing or even that you suspect will be comitting a "arrestable" crime, one that a normal police officer would not have to go to court first to get an arrest warrant for. Breaking and entering is one such offence, and affray/ threat of affray/ assault on you personally or on another you deem the need to protect?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The power of a person to perform a citizen’s arrest is limited to the circumstances prescribed by ch 58 of the Criminal Code Act 1899 (Qld) (Criminal Code) including where a person:

is called upon by a police officer to assist in the arrest of another person, unless the person called upon knows that there is no reasonable ground for the suspicion (s 546(b))
finds someone committing an offence for which an arrest may be made by police without a warrant (s 546(c))
believes on reasonable grounds that the person has committed an offence for which an arrest may be made by police without a warrant, whether that person has committed the offence or not (s 546(d))
finds another person by night and believes on reasonable grounds that that other person is committing an offence (s 546(e))
believes on reasonable grounds that the property another person offers to sell, pawn or deliver to them has been acquired by means of an offence for which a person may be arrested without a warrant (s 551)
is in command of an aircraft, is on board the aircraft, and persons acting with that person’s authority, find someone committing an offence on the aircraft or believe on reasonable grounds that the person has committed, has attempted to commit or intends to commit an offence in relation to, or affecting the use of, the aircraft (s 547A)
finds someone committing an indictable offence at night (s 549)
finds someone who they believe on reasonable grounds to have committed an offence escaping from another person who they believe on reasonable grounds has the authority to arrest that other person for that offence (s 550).

Any person who witnesses a breach of the peace may intervene to prevent its continuance or renewal. That person may detain any offender and use such force as is reasonably necessary to take them into police custody (s 260 Criminal Code).

A person exercising a power of arrest must be careful not to exceed their limited authority, or the person arrested may sue for wrongful arrest, false imprisonment and assault. Once a citizen’s arrest has been made, the person arrested should, without delay, be handed over to police or a justice of the peace (s 552 Criminal Code) with a full explanation of the reasons for the arrest. A person who makes a citizen’s arrest should be willing to speak to police.


Is this federal or state law? :drinks:

Criminal Code Act 1899 (Qld) (Criminal Code) And is neither State nor Federal, but Common Law. The QLD Criminal Code Act, in it's simplest form, is not statute law, but a guideline as to how and when you can legally exercise your Common Law Rights. In this case, your Common Law Right to make a "citizens arrest".
Think of The Code as a list of 'checks and balances' to protect everyones Common Law Rights (unlike statute law, which could be likened more to cause and effect), if you follow the guidelines then your actions are deemed "lawful" and you are aforded the protections of your Common Law Rights, don't follow them, then the other persons Common Law Rights are protected.
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Re: Time for laws for self defense?

Post by Daddybang » 14 Nov 2017, 6:56 am

Thanks for explaining that trekin :thumbsup:
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Re: Time for laws for self defense?

Post by Gwion » 18 Nov 2017, 11:24 am

Chronos wrote:Your argument isn't helped buy the use of the word "wireless" and the incorrect use of the word "borders" :lol:

If an intruder gains access to your house while you're asleep your preparedness has already failed and no bedside defencive weapon is of any use, in fact all you've done is arm a crim inside your property.

Chronos


No.1 personal protection (note: not self defence) FACT stated in this thread!
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Re: Time for laws for self defense?

Post by Gwion » 18 Nov 2017, 11:47 am

A little historical and cultural perspective is in order here. We are in Australia, not the US.

1/ The excuse for carrying any item for the purposes of self defence in Australia began being phased out back when the "razor gangs" ruled the streets. You know, Squizzie Taylor and his ilk. Outlawing the excuse of self defence for carrying any item allowed police to apprehend known thugs found in possession of razors and such where previously the thug would claim "it's for self defence" when, in fact, it was for intimidation and the commission of crime.

2/ As has been mentioned previously, crims do in fact make up all manner of wild stories to justify their criminal activities and attempt to pass them off as lawful defence or what not. In as much, expecting police to accept your reason that you are standing over the lifeless, bloodied body of an "intruder" as "self defence", just because you say so is kind'a childish. It is the police' job to investigate and ensure that the right people are either punished or exonerated. Yes, the pace of 'justice' can be glacial and miscarriages occur but you will find this is not a uniquely Australian phenomenon.

3/ In relation to the above, the Aust Bureau of Stats & the Aust Institute of Criminology both reflect that if you are the victim of violent crime, it is statistically MOST likely to be at the hands of someone you know, after you have been drinking, at either your home or the offenders home. Having this as a statistical fact reinforces the need for anyone's story to be investigated before it accepted as fact.

4/ Any violent attack is a crime. The excuse of "self defence" is a legal excuse and a legal defence. It is NOT an automatic "get out of gaol free card". You WILL answer a charge of assault (or worse) and you WILL have to prove that your excuse of 'self defence' is true and correct; or, more correctly, the prosecution will have to prove that it is not, which in effect amounts to the same thing because you will have to answer their allegations and prove them false.

So, if you are the type to answer violence with violence: instead of bleating about how you should be able to defend yourself by any means necessary, you need to understand the law and that you can, in fact, defend yourself by any means necessary (with reasonable and proportionate force) but you WILL have to prove that it was reasonable and proportionate in DEFENCE and not bloody minded assault (or worse). No point screaming that the law needs to change if you don't actually understand what the law is in the first place.

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Re: Time for laws for self defense?

Post by marksman » 18 Nov 2017, 5:23 pm

I don't think you need the asbestos suit, its good to have someone just come out with it

I did an armed hold up course when I lived in QLD years ago and if I had a home invasion robbery that's exactly how I would deal with it,
a farmer mate who has had a few in his area in the last couple of years where one couple were tortured and the male died of a heart attack thinks differently though
he doesn't sleep well, he hears a lot of noises and has a shottie under the bed, he is to old to get into an altercation
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Re: Time for laws for self defense?

Post by duncan61 » 18 Nov 2017, 5:26 pm

Good work Gwion
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