Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Questions about Victorian gun and ammunition laws. Victorian Firearms Act 1996.

Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Nigel » 10 Jul 2018, 2:32 pm

NTSOG wrote:I assume part ''(f) a person who holds a licence under this Act, and who is possessing, carrying or using a firearm which the person is authorised to possess, carry or use in accordance with the licence and who is acting under a game licence under the Wildlife Act 1975'' covers deer hunters in state forests, etc.

Correct. That exemption was included because game animals do not fall within the definition of "pest animals" that the 130(2A)(g) exemption relies on.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by doc » 10 Jul 2018, 5:16 pm

If that exemption is legit then it opens up a larger can of worms and we've come full circle:

In that if we're still permitted to hunt in public places in accordance with our license - but the removal of towns and populous place has been removed.

With that 'escape' clause as you put it in play - if public place includes state forests, and licensed shooters (for the purpose of hunting) are permitted to hunt in public places (aka our state forest) then does this mean they would then permitted to hunt outside of the state forest in public places as well provided we meet the rest of the requirements?

Does this mean I can dust off the ol' air rifle and see if I can get some mice in the back shed like the good ol' days? ;-)
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Nigel » 11 Jul 2018, 2:05 am

The exemption doesn't provide any general authorisation to hunt in "public places". All it says is, if you are hunting pest animals on crown land where hunting is permitted, you are not breaching s130 even if the crown land is a public place.

Using the air rifle in the shed may be OK. The old version of section 130 would have prevented this if your shed was in a town or populace place. Your shed is not a "public place" so the new s130 only prevents this to the extent that it involves "reckless disregard for the safety of any person". If firing an air rifle in your shed is safe, it is not prevented by section 130.

I am not advising you to do this. If you have neighbours near by and they see or hear you doing this, the chances of a visit from the police are high. Also, my comments are restricted to section 130. It is possible that there are other provisions that make this an offence. I would check the law very thoroughly before doing this.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Gwion » 11 Jul 2018, 5:57 am

In Tas there is wording to the effect of 'firearms must not be used closer than 250m of sny dwelling without the permision of the occupant". This is separate to as any reference to populace places.

Is there any such wording in the Vic Act?
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Mr.Seacucumber » 11 Jul 2018, 8:14 am

Gwion wrote:In Tas there is wording to the effect of 'firearms must not be used closer than 250m of sny dwelling without the permision of the occupant". This is separate to as any reference to populace places.

Is there any such wording in the Vic Act?


There is in the 2008 amendements for target shooting. That’s probabaly what they would use to cover that.

Also

This authorisation does not apply to the holder of a licence who has obtained that licence for the purposes of sport or target shooting if that person is using a black powder ball firing cannon.


I am very disappointed by this, guess I’ll have to take the pirate ship cannon off the hilux.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by doc » 11 Jul 2018, 9:28 am

Thanks for this information Nigel. It's a very interesting read.

I wonder whether or not we'll get any information from officials (DFO's or higher) to confirm that exemption.

I find it interesting that in this case, the re-write appears to restrict more -but infact they've tangled up their own web so much that it appears to have loosened slightly. Personally I'm struggling to find the need for a rewrite in the first place. The old one seemed to make more sense (at least to a non-lawyer like me).

As for the shed - I agree - I wouldn't recommend discharging a air rifle in the back shed to anyone with the way that the anti-gun hysteria appears to be increasing these days - the local media if they found out would have a circus. I could imagine pinging a few mice in the back shed with an air gun could be reported as "High powered silenced assault gun used to murder family dwelling in back shed of gun owners property", let alone what the "Gun Control "Experts"" they interview would come up with. ;-)
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 11 Jul 2018, 4:43 pm

G'Day all,

I am still trying to contact the local firearms officer about Nigel's queries re:

''2A) A person does not commit an offence under subsection (1), (1A) or (1B) if the person is—

(f) a person who holds a licence under this Act, and who is possessing, carrying or using a firearm which the person is authorised to possess, carry or use in accordance with the licence and who is acting under a game licence under the Wildlife Act 1975 ; or

(g) a person who holds a licence under this Act, and who is possessing, carrying or using a firearm in accordance with the licence and with any other requirements of any other law, licence, permit or other authority that applies to the possession, carriage or use.".'


He's been out of his office every time I have called.

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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Gun-nut » 11 Jul 2018, 8:17 pm

Sooooo...has this all been cleared up then? This whole situation is indeed very confusing.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Wombat » 11 Jul 2018, 8:30 pm

Gun-nut wrote:Sooooo...has this all been cleared up then? This whole situation is indeed very confusing.

It would appear so, however it is so confusing that some Police may misinterpret the current situation.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Oldbloke » 11 Jul 2018, 9:35 pm

Gun-nut wrote:Sooooo...has this all been cleared up then? This whole situation is indeed very confusing.


Looks about a clear as a muddy dam if you ask me.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 11 Jul 2018, 10:30 pm

Hey I got 6 acres.... sp in vic I can hunt rats in my shed with an air rifle.... actually considering their size and numbers, I rather a 22lr semi auto.

As long as it's not near the road... public....
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 12 Jul 2018, 6:52 am

Gun-nut: ''it is so confusing that some Police may misinterpret the current situation."

As I wrote in my opening post on this issue - having worked for nearly 25 years in a large state government department - it is not uncommon in large bureaucracies for confusion about application of laws and regulations to occur between the bureaucrats at the top in head offices and those who operate in the field. Then there is the confusion that often exists between different government Departments and their agencies. [When I worked in the Public Service I had two signs above my desk. One, ''ADVENTURELAND'', had an arrow pointed down at my desk. The other ''FANTASYLAND'' pointed toward Head Office in Melbourne. As this suggests I was not interested in climbing the bureaucratic career ladder!]

Here's another example I encountered when studying the regulations governing hunting:

''Game Management Authority

Land Classification: Forest Parks (Cobboboonee and Otway) and other unoccupied Crown land

Hunting Permitted?: Game species may be hunted during the open season only. Pest animals may be hunted at any time, noting, it is an offence to be in possession of a spotlight and firearm in recognised deer habitat.'' [My Italics]

I asked the local Firearms Officer if infrared night sights [and thermal] were prohibited with spotlights. He confirmed they were included and told me such aides could not be used at night. However the State Forest we were discussing is not "recognised deer habitat". [There are some red deer roaming around to be fair.] In fact the whole Shire in which I live is not considered ''recognised deer habitat" - I rang the Game Management Authority and asked. I certainly would not test this by going out after dark with a night sight lest I be charged and have to talk my way out of it in Court, but it is just another example of confusion about regulations and interpretation.


Hi Ziad, I shoot pest birds in my sheds with an air rifle, but my property is rated as a farm, is on the edge of bush and thousands of acres of pine plantations and there are numerous shooters including a couple of coppers living in the district. It seems certain though that I cannot shoot in my smaller front paddocks near the road as I believe there is a 250m ''distance'' requirement. This a shame as there is a fox which regularly hunts around a large dam at the front of the property - he was flushed from the long grass by me this morning as I fed the cattle - but I [legally] cannot shoot the blighter.

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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Nigel » 12 Jul 2018, 1:12 pm

It seems certain though that I cannot shoot in my smaller front paddocks near the road as I believe there is a 250m ''distance'' requirement.

I think the distance restrictions you are referring to come from regulation 22 of the Firearms Regulations 2008 (Vic). These only apply to "sport or target shooting", not hunting. The regulation prevents people engaged in sport or target shooting from discharging a firearm within 250m of certain dwellings or within 100m of public roads.

I don't think that regulation would stop you from shooting that fox. If it was unsafe to do so, you would be breaching other provisions of the Firearms Act.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by No1Mk3 » 12 Jul 2018, 3:12 pm

Nigel is correct, you can shoot right on (inside!!) your fenceline, 3m from the road edge, providing your are not target shooting. Other factors notwithstanding r: zoning, where the projie ends up etc, Cheers
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 12 Jul 2018, 6:38 pm

Thanks for clarifying that Nigel and No1Mk3. I had only been able to find the target shooting regulations specifying 250m.

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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 13 Jul 2018, 10:17 am

G'day All,

I have just spoken to the local Firearms Officer about the exemption clauses and he was adamant that '2(g) a person who holds a licence under this Act, and who is possessing, carrying or using a firearm in accordance with the licence and with any other requirements of any other law, licence, permit or other authority that applies to the possession, carriage or use.' is not sufficient and, in context with the new wording, too vague to cover those who might wish to shoot in a 'public place' like a state forest in Victoria under s130 Offences as to possession, carriage and use of firearms in certain places.

The officer stated, that, together with several others, he asked the Registry for a clear and definitive operational definition some time ago and is still waiting for a response.

He has taken a record of my details and will contact me when he knows more.

He is equally concerned about the lack of specific prohibition in the new wording about people shooting in private suburban back yards if safely managed by shooters so that the, clause '(b) in any other place with reckless disregard for the safety of any person' is not breached.

So State Forests are out for now for me until there a clear statement or operational definition.

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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by doc » 13 Jul 2018, 11:12 am

Thanks NTSOG for the update.

Normally I'd say don't hold your breath or expect a timely response from the Registry - however if the police will be equally concerned about the lack of specific prohibition in the new wording regarding private suburban back yards - this may work in our favour as we may just see a fire lit under this and it resolved a little quicker!
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Gwion » 13 Jul 2018, 11:44 am

Maybe on of the people with legal training here can draft a petition to provide a clear definition of 'public place' in the Vic Firearms Act that does not infringe on hunting access to state forest. Included could be suggested wording to eliminate the concerns of shooting in suburban environs.
This would show proactive concern from the Vic firearms community.
It's at least worth a try and to go on record on this issue.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 13 Jul 2018, 4:26 pm

doc: ''however if the police will be equally concerned about the lack of specific prohibition in the new wording regarding private suburban back yards - this may work in our favour as we may just see a fire lit under this and it resolved a little quicker!''

I suspect that if I was to go into a forest with my rifle and be charged under the current confusing regulations there would not be much fuss, i.e. bad press or political fallout. After all some people do poach animals illegally. We know that some drongo shot a red deer doe about 800 yards behind our property a couple of years ago and left it there to rot. Some poachers are caught, some are not. It happens.

However if someone on the fringe of suburbia, perhaps on his private [and therefore not public space or place] 5-10 acres, was to set up a safe range, i.e. was not behaving ''recklessly'' as per s130, to zero a rifle there would be hell to pay. As soon as a shot was fired, there would be multiple calls to 000 and every copper, Polair and even the SOG boys would be there with sirens wailing. Then there would be every TV station and their choppers. The current confusion about s130 would quickly become obvious and big news.

As for the following:

''Am I eligible to apply for a public place permit (PPP) for the purpose of vermin control, performing acts and re-enactment?

Section 130 of the Firearms Act 1996 regulates the carriage or use of firearms in certain places in Victoria. To be eligible for a populous place permit you must provide evidence to support your application.
Applicants who require a PPP for use or carriage of a firearm in an enclosed area will be considered provided they hold their licence for any of the following genuine reasons:

Professional Hunter
(Professional Business) Vermin (Pest) Controller
Performing Arts and Re-enactment Groups
Municipal Council employees
Govt Dept e.g. DELWP employer
Feral Bird Control
Veterinary Purposes
Zoo employees''


I am none of the above, especially ''professional hunter'', but:

''Applicants who require a PPP for use or carriage of a firearm in an open area (e.g. farmland or football ground) will be considered provided they hold their licence for any of the following genuine reasons:

Primary Production
Hunting
Sport/Target''


I am still not a professional hunter. As I remarked in a previous post, why add an extra licensing requirement [burden] to already licensed people? Unless the purpose is to discourage people from hunting with firearms in state forests????


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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Nigel » 14 Jul 2018, 7:45 am

NTSOG wrote:I have just spoken to the local Firearms Officer about the exemption clauses and he was adamant that '2(g) a person who holds a licence under this Act, and who is possessing, carrying or using a firearm in accordance with the licence and with any other requirements of any other law, licence, permit or other authority that applies to the possession, carriage or use.' is not sufficient and, in context with the new wording, too vague to cover those who might wish to shoot in a 'public place' like a state forest in Victoria under s130 Offences as to possession, carriage and use of firearms in certain places.

Did you point out the wording in paragraph 1(2) of Schedule 2 of the Act? His position is exactly the same as mine was when I first read 130(2A)(g). Later, when I read the exemption together with Schedule 2, it made perfect sense. It is very clear that the drafters had Schedule 2 in mind when they wrote 130(2A)(g). Otherwise, what is the purpose of the exemption?

Police misunderstanding of the law is not uncommon.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 14 Jul 2018, 5:34 pm

G'Day Nigel,

In hindsight I did not present paragraph 1(2) of Schedule 2 of the Act at all well. It was a rambling discussion and I suspect I did not make my point. I will let things settle for a couple of weeks, then summarise the points made in this discussion, especially your contribution, and write to the firearms officer. I generally do better in writing when presenting detailed technical arguments, especially in areas where I have limited expertise. This officer is clearly sympathetic and concerned so I do not want to become a nuisance and 'nag' him.

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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 19 Sep 2018, 12:43 pm

G'day all,

I have just heard from the local Firearms Officer about the issue of hunting in state forests given the changes in wording of Section 130 earlier this year. He received clarification a week or so ago and sent me an extract from the E-mail he received from the Registry and told me to feel free to hunt in state forests. I've printed it below. He explained that there had also been some concern about the situation from staff, e.g. rangers, from Department of Environment, Land, Water and Planning as might be expected as they were uncertain how to apply regulations and laws that were suddenly open to interpretation.

''I’ve cut and pasted this from an email from the Firearms Registry:

''Licensing & Regulation Division is aware that there has been some public discussion around amendments to Section 130 – particularly in regards to shooting on Crown Land. LRD’s position is outlined below.

Section 130 of the Firearms Act – public places

The recent amendments to Section 130 of the Firearms Act 1996 has seen some changes to the terminology and expansion of definitions outlined in this section. This was done to align the language with the Summary Offences Act 1966 and clarifies the application of Section 130.

In practical terms, these changes should not have a significant impact on licensed people who wish to lawfully shoot on crown land. While the definition of public place has been expanded, it does not fundamentally change our understanding of what constitutes a public place; Victoria Police and other government departments should continue to apply the same rationale as previously applied to their approach to safe shooting practices in these places."''

Hopefully that's the end of it - until the next time some one decides to change wordings - or am I being too cynical?

Good luck all,

Jim
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