Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Questions about Victorian gun and ammunition laws. Victorian Firearms Act 1996.

Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 05 Jul 2018, 5:23 pm

G'day,

This morning I visited the local Department of Environment, Land, Water and Planning to check that I could shoot in a state forest [not park] very near where I live. I was assured by DELWP staff I could shoot there and that the permit I held from DELWP was still valid to shoot/hunt there. Being new to hunting with firearms and knowing there are many different "çhiefs'' in the various bureaucracies I wanted to stay ''legal''. I rang the local firearms officer to discuss a couple of issues. He explained that the recent change to Section 130 in the Act potentially makes it illegal to use or carry a loaded firearm in the state forest as the new wording of the Act specifies carrying a loaded firearm and shooting in any ''public place'' is not legal and the section no longer refers to exclusions specific to using firearms in built-up areas such as towns/cities/more populated areas, e.g. urban/suburban versus farming or [previously] public state forests. As state forests are ''public areas'' this firearms officer advised me to stay clear of any ''public'' lands with my rifles until there is a clear operational statement of the actual meaning of the new Section and clear definition about the nature of different types of ''public places'' and what may or may not occur in those places.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable about the revised Victorian Act could advise further. In the meantime I'm shooting on private land - where I have permission.

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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Oldbloke » 05 Jul 2018, 6:16 pm

WHAT THE F&#*K!
MUST BE A MISTAKE.

That would mean the end of Sambar hunting in the state.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by YoungBuck » 05 Jul 2018, 6:22 pm

It would mean the end to hunting anything in all state forests or sanctuaries.
It'll shoot the fleas off a dog's back at five hundred yards, Tannen, and it's pointed straight at your head!
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Oldbloke » 05 Jul 2018, 8:16 pm

And some National Parks that are designated as OK for sambar hunting during the off season.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Gwion » 06 Jul 2018, 6:31 am

NTSOG wrote:G'day,

This morning I visited the local Department of Environment, Land, Water and Planning to check that I could shoot in a state forest [not park] very near where I live. I was assured by DELWP staff I could shoot there and that the permit I held from DELWP was still valid to shoot/hunt there. Being new to hunting with firearms and knowing there are many different "çhiefs'' in the various bureaucracies I wanted to stay ''legal''. I rang the local firearms officer to discuss a couple of issues. He explained that the recent change to Section 130 in the Act potentially makes it illegal to use or carry a loaded firearm in the state forest as the new wording of the Act specifies carrying a loaded firearm and shooting in any ''public place'' is not legal and the section no longer refers to exclusions specific to using firearms in built-up areas such as towns/cities/more populated areas, e.g. urban/suburban versus farming or [previously] public state forests. As state forests are ''public areas'' this firearms officer advised me to stay clear of any ''public'' lands with my rifles until there is a clear operational statement of the actual meaning of the new Section and clear definition about the nature of different types of ''public places'' and what may or may not occur in those places.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable about the revised Victorian Act could advise further. In the meantime I'm shooting on private land - where I have permission.

Jim


You need to look at the 'definitiins' section of the act to see what constitutes a 'public place'. The copper in question may bee somewhat confused.

I have an old time mate who is a cop. While he's a good bloke he does tend to think he knows everything about the law and is not always quite right in his understanding..... coppers are just average people: they get s**t wrong sometimes.

Check the definitions and read the section carefully.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 06 Jul 2018, 6:41 am

G'Day,

I found this in relation to Section 130 and recent changes in wording. I have underlined certain phrases:

''FIREARMS AMENDMENT ACT 2018 (NO. 2 OF 2018) - SECT 25
Offences as to possession, carriage or use of firearms in certain places
(1) Insert the following heading to section 130 of the Principal Act—
" Offences as to possession, carriage and use of firearms in certain places ".
(2) For section 130(1) of the Principal Act substitute —
"(1) A person must not possess a loaded firearm—
(a) in a public place; or
(b) in any other place with reckless disregard for the safety of any person.
Penalty: 10 years imprisonment.
(1A) A person must not carry a loaded firearm—
(a) in a public place; or
(b) in any other place with reckless disregard for the safety of any person.
Penalty: 10 years imprisonment.
(1B) A person must not use a firearm—
(a) in a public place; or
(b) in any other place with reckless disregard for the safety of any person.''

It seems one can be 'done' just for possessing, carrying and using a loaded firearm in [any] public space and being ''reckless'' is not required - but I am not trained in the Law.

In contrast consider the older version:

Authorised Version No. 064 Firearms Act 1996 No. 66 of 1996 Authorised Version incorporating amendments as at 16 May 2012


Page 206:

"130 Offence to carry or use a firearm in certain places (1) A person must not carry a loaded firearm or use a firearm in a town or populous place or on any thoroughfare or place open to or used by the public for passage with vehicles."

The older version seems to be more specific [and sensible] to me, whereas the new version is general - ''in a public space'' - and thus casts a very wide 'net' in which I am not prepared to be caught and which clearly was a great concern for the very considerate and helpful firearms officer with whom I spoke. Clearly state forests, parks and other crown lands can be ''public spaces'' in the general sense, no matter what permission or 'licence' DELWP grants to shooters.

I don't pretend to understand how lawyers and judges interpret the Queen's English - I once had a conversation with a lawyer about certain professional matters in my field of expertise and am still recovering from the experience - I have never heard any one torture the English language and change the meaning of words in such an extreme fashion so black became white and vice versa.

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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 06 Jul 2018, 6:56 am

G'day Gwion,

The firearms officer with whom I spoke stated that this issue is of concern to other firearms officers around the State and they are seeking a clarification from the licensing people about interpretation of ''public spaces'' and some other issues stemming from the changes. The officer is not acting alone in this.

I looked for a current definition of ''public space'', but the only one I could find - so far - was: "To avoid doubt, the interior and exterior of any vehicle, vessel or aircraft that is in a public place is a public place." There was no reference to other types of ''public spaces'' such as state forests.

There is a list of exemptions and item 2 (g) states: "a person who holds a licence under this Act, and who is possessing, carrying or using a firearm in accordance with the licence and with any other requirements of any other law, licence, permit or other authority that applies to the possession, carriage or use." However I do not pretend to be able to interpret this exemption in relation to ''public spaces'' in general.

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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Gwion » 06 Jul 2018, 10:22 am

From what is quoted below, I would be seeking written clarification from Dept of Constant Name Changes on the status of Victorian State Forests in relation to Summary Offences act 1966.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VIC FIREARMS ACT: section 3, DEFINITIONS


S. 3(1) def. of public place inserted by No. 25/2009 s. 8(b).

public place has the same meaning as it has in section 3 of the Summary Offences Act 1966 ;
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FROM VIC SUMMARY OFFENCES ACT 1966: section 3, DEFINITIONS


S. 3 def. of public place amended by No. 9549 s. 2(1)(Sch. item 219), substituted by No. 97/1987 s. 181(14), amended by Nos 74/2000 s. 3(Sch. 1 item 121.2), 24/2006 s. 6.1.2(Sch. 7 item 39.1).

"public place" includes and applies to—

(a) any public highway road street bridge footway footpath court alley passage or thoroughfare notwithstanding that it may be formed on private property;

(b) any park garden reserve or other place of public recreation or resort;

(c) any railway station platform or carriage;

(d) any wharf pier or jetty;

(e) any passenger ship or boat plying for hire;

(f) any public vehicle plying for hire;

(g) any church or chapel open to the public or any other building where divine service is being publicly held;

(h) any Government school or the land or premises in connexion therewith;

(i) any public hall theatre or room while members of the public are in attendance at, or are assembling for or departing from, a public entertainment or meeting therein;

(j) any market;

(k) any auction room or mart or place while a sale by auction is there proceeding;

(l) any licensed premises or authorised premises within the meaning of the Liquor Control Reform Act 1998 ;

(m) any race-course cricket ground football ground or other such place while members of the public are present or are permitted to have access thereto whether with or without payment for admission;

(n) any place of public resort;

(o) any open place to which the public whether upon or without payment for admittance have or are permitted to have access; or

(p) any public place within the meaning of the words "public place" whether by virtue of this Act or otherwise;

"road" includes and applies to every road street or bridge;

S. 3 def. of Scheduled public place inserted by No. 44/1997

s. 53(1).

"Scheduled public place" means a public place described in Schedule 1;

"section" means section of this Act;

"town" means a populous area or place.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 06 Jul 2018, 12:45 pm

Thanks for that Gwion: "From what is quoted below, I would be seeking written clarification from Dept of Constant Name Changes on the status of Victorian State Forests in relation to Summary Offences act 1966."


All this legal stuff is new to me so my question is, does DELWP have any authority to make rulings that apply totally in Law to the land [parks, forests, etc.], it manages that the Police and others have to recognise? [I have worked in a state government department and am well aware that what my colleagues and I did and understood in the regions in the ''field'' was often at odds with what the bureaucrats did and understood in head office. Further interdepartmental agreement was often difficult to obtain.]

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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by southwest shooter » 06 Jul 2018, 1:32 pm

BS pure and simple .
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Gwion » 06 Jul 2018, 3:49 pm

NTSOG wrote:Thanks for that Gwion: "From what is quoted below, I would be seeking written clarification from Dept of Constant Name Changes on the status of Victorian State Forests in relation to Summary Offences act 1966."


All this legal stuff is new to me so my question is, does DELWP have any authority to make rulings that apply totally in Law to the land [parks, forests, etc.], it manages that the Police and others have to recognise? [I have worked in a state government department and am well aware that what my colleagues and I did and understood in the regions in the ''field'' was often at odds with what the bureaucrats did and understood in head office. Further interdepartmental agreement was often difficult to obtain.]

Jim


Dunno, mate. Can't help you there.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by southeast varmiter » 06 Jul 2018, 10:42 pm

What BS - this is a wind up. The definition of a 'public place' is well documented. State Forest is not even close to being confused as a public place.
The legal terminology for a public is place is analogous with a populous place, such as a public accessed venue or grounds. Here an area such as a public park or resort would fit this, or open air entertainment space such as a concert etc.
Not the middle of the Fking bush.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Nigel » 07 Jul 2018, 1:49 am

southeast varmiter wrote:What BS - this is a wind up. The definition of a 'public place' is well documented. State Forest is not even close to being confused as a public place.
The legal terminology for a public is place is analogous with a populous place, such as a public accessed venue or grounds. Here an area such as a public park or resort would fit this, or open air entertainment space such as a concert etc.
Not the middle of the Fking bush.


These guys are discussing a legitimate question about a new provision in an act of the Victorian legislature. This provision sets out an offence punishable by up to 10 years of imprisonment. This is a very serious matter and one which people on this forum should discuss and understand. Responses like yours seeking to limit this discussion through derision are not helpful and not wanted.

Aside from the unhelpful negative tone of your post, I strongly suspect that your contribution to the discussion is misguided and unsupported.

southeast varmiter wrote:The definition of a 'public place' is well documented.

Please provide directions to this authoritative documentation so we can all share in your wisdom.

What experience do you have in statutory interpretation that enables you to interpret this provision with such authority and finality? Please provide references to legislation or case law that support your conclusions.

Gwion has provided the relevant chain of definitions in his post. Considering the wording of sub-paragraphs (b), (o) and (p) in the definition of 'public place' in section 3 of the Summary Offences Act 1966 (Vic), I believe that it is highly likely that a court would find that state forests fall within the scope of that definition.

As noted by Jim, section 130(2A)(g) may provide an exemption if there is a "law, licence, permit or other authority" that sets out requirements related to the possession and use of firearms in Victorian state forests and you are compliant with those requirements. It is far from clear.

Another question worth considering is how likely it is that you would be prosecuted. It is quite possible that this provision makes it an offence to carry a loaded firearm or use a firearm in a state forest in Victoria. I think it is very unlikely that anyone would be prosecuted for such an offence. Some people will be fine with this. Others may not feel comfortable committing a technical breach that carries penalties of up to ten years of imprisonment.

If I was a person who hunted on public land in Victoria I would be applying for a permit from the Chief Commissioner as provided for in section 130(3). If enough people applied for such a permit, the volume of paperwork may encourage the relevant authorities to clarify the issue.

Society is full of people like 'southeast varminter' who think that all laws issuing from our parliaments are always logical and consistent with their understanding of the world. This is not the case!

Most legislation is drafted in a rush by people who don't understand the issues the law is addressing and is not adequately reviewed before enactment. Sloppy wording and unintended consequences are common. Combine this with the inordinate penalties usually assigned to even minor firearms offences and firearms owners and users need to be very wary.

We should be thankful to people like Jim who keep an eye out for such issues and bring them to our attention. All users of this forum should be encouraged to do the same.
Last edited by Blackened on 07 Jul 2018, 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Lets leave the name calling out.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 07 Jul 2018, 7:12 am

Thankyou Nigel for your reasoned contribution about this important issue.

I will add the following:

a. When I asked the firearms officer about hunting in the state forest he responded to the effect he had been dreading the moment someone put him on the spot, believing as he [and some other officers] did that the new wording created a legal minefield and that [currently] he had no safe answer other than to advise me not to hunt in the forest until he received formal advice from the appropriate authority. In advising me not to hunt in the forest he was being completely professional and meeting his duty-of-care to me.

b. The officer stated that the changes had been passed about one month ago without any fanfare. The implication was that those involved in the Police and in actually 'managing' the ownership and use of firearms were unaware of the nature of the wording changes until after they were passed by Parliament.

c. Aside from concerns about the definition of 'public space' the officer explained to me another potential issue that no commentator has picked up here. I quote from my first post: "... the section no longer refers to exclusions specific to using firearms in built-up areas such as towns/cities/more populated areas." It refers to public spaces and reckless behaviour only. It does not specifically proscribe in direct language use of firearms in a safe manner in and around suburbia. I asked the officer if that absence of specific prohibition meant someone could [technically] set up a shooting range on private land in a built up area that met all safety standards of shooting [and therefore was not reckless behaviour]? He had concerns on that issue too. Half joking I suggested that it wouldn't be a problem for Police as such an urban shooting range could be shut down using EPA regulations governing noise and/or pollution. Of course any possibility of people being able to shoot on private land in built up areas would be very serious and actually stupid. It would also give anti-gun types more ammunition to use to limit shooters. The 'technical' issue of the definition of "public spaces" would also give anti-hunting, anti-gun Green political forces a way of keeping shooters out of state forests. I suspect the 'antis' will be very happy about this new wording - once they realise it exists.

Nigel's comment is pertinent: "Most legislation is drafted in a rush by people who don't understand the issues the law is addressing and is not adequately reviewed before enactment. Sloppy wording and unintended consequences are common."

That sounds about right to me!

Jim.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by southeast varmiter » 07 Jul 2018, 8:36 am

Here you go sweetheart. As I said public place is well defined and if your in one you need a public place permit as described here.
So if your concerned about hunting in a state forest - apply for a permit.
http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.as ... t_ID=34424

Victoria Police considers a public place to be a place where people gather, populated or generally frequent. Examples include (but are not limited to); shows or events, designated parks or open spaces like walking tracks.

A town is defined as:

a densely populated area within a parish; or
any area declared a city; or
any suburb within a city; or
any land zoned by a Municipal or Shire Council as anything other than land zoned Rural, Environmental Rural, Rural Living, Public Conservation and Resource or Farm Land;
Other zone listings which fall within the definition of town are, Residential, Low Density Residential, Mixed Use, Township, Industrial, Business, Public Land, Public Use, Public Park And Recreation, Special Purpose, Comprehensive Development, Urban, Urban Floodway, Capital City or Docklands.


Nigel wrote:
southeast varmiter wrote:What BS - this is a wind up. The definition of a 'public place' is well documented. State Forest is not even close to being confused as a public place.
The legal terminology for a public is place is analogous with a populous place, such as a public accessed venue or grounds. Here an area such as a public park or resort would fit this, or open air entertainment space such as a concert etc.
Not the middle of the Fking bush.


These guys are discussing a legitimate question about a new provision in an act of the Victorian legislature. This provision sets out an offence punishable by up to 10 years of imprisonment. This is a very serious matter and one which people on this forum should discuss and understand. Responses like yours seeking to limit this discussion through derision are not helpful and not wanted.

Aside from the unhelpful negative tone of your post, I strongly suspect that your contribution to the discussion is misguided and unsupported.

southeast varmiter wrote:The definition of a 'public place' is well documented.

Please provide directions to this authoritative documentation so we can all share in your wisdom.

What experience do you have in statutory interpretation that enables you to interpret this provision with such authority and finality? Please provide references to legislation or case law that support your conclusions.

Gwion has provided the relevant chain of definitions in his post. Considering the wording of sub-paragraphs (b), (o) and (p) in the definition of 'public place' in section 3 of the Summary Offences Act 1966 (Vic), I believe that it is highly likely that a court would find that state forests fall within the scope of that definition.

As noted by Jim, section 130(2A)(g) may provide an exemption if there is a "law, licence, permit or other authority" that sets out requirements related to the possession and use of firearms in Victorian state forests and you are compliant with those requirements. It is far from clear.

Another question worth considering is how likely it is that you would be prosecuted. It is quite possible that this provision makes it an offence to carry a loaded firearm or use a firearm in a state forest in Victoria. I think it is very unlikely that anyone would be prosecuted for such an offence. Some people will be fine with this. Others may not feel comfortable committing a technical breach that carries penalties of up to ten years of imprisonment.

If I was a person who hunted on public land in Victoria I would be applying for a permit from the Chief Commissioner as provided for in section 130(3). If enough people applied for such a permit, the volume of paperwork may encourage the relevant authorities to clarify the issue.

Society is full of people like 'southeast varminter' who think that all laws issuing from our parliaments are always logical and consistent with their understanding of the world. This is not the case!

Most legislation is drafted in a rush by people who don't understand the issues the law is addressing and is not adequately reviewed before enactment. Sloppy wording and unintended consequences are common. Combine this with the inordinate penalties usually assigned to even minor firearms offences and firearms owners and users need to be very wary.

We should be thankful to people like Jim who keep an eye out for such issues and bring them to our attention. All users of this forum should be encouraged to do the same.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Gaznazdiak » 07 Jul 2018, 10:38 am

Wouldn't it be great if laws were made by real people, people with a knowledge of the subject about which they were legislating, and writen in plain easily understood colloquial language?

Instead they are writen in almost impenetrable legalese by ignorant narcissists and their attendant sycophants, absent of any professional advice, particularly if it is contrary to the intent of those who hold the pollies' leashes.

To Southeast Varminter, a state forest, no matter the state, is by definition a public venue. Period. So if the new law says you can not carry a firearm in any public space then it would seem rather obvious that forests would be included, and that not asking the questions that NTSOG asked would be negligent.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 07 Jul 2018, 11:16 am

G'Day southeast varmeter,

Thank you for the reference: http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.as ... t_ID=34424

Reading that set of Regulations I am led to believe that it is a specialised permission that has existed over and above the regular regulations governing possession of, carrying of and firing of firearms in forests and other public spaces. You may well be right that any of us can apply for a special dispensation, but that would represent an extra layer of bureaucratic regulation for shooters that has not been necessary in the recent past, but may be necessary if the concerns of the firearms officer are real. I for one do not wish to apply for such a special permit which would represent an additional layer of bureaucratic regulation for shooters that was unnecessary until the recent change in wording. The comment by Gaznazdiak has merit: "Wouldn't it be great if laws were made by real people, people with a knowledge of the subject about which they were legislating, and written in plain easily understood colloquial language?" and, as Nigel states "Most legislation is drafted in a rush by people who don't understand the issues the law is addressing and is not adequately reviewed before enactment. Sloppy wording and unintended consequences are common."

If the issue is one of careless wording by people who did not consult and are out of touch with what happens outside of the offices, then that needs to be sorted out.

Thank you again for the reference,

Jim
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Nigel » 08 Jul 2018, 3:45 pm

southeast varmiter wrote:Here you go sweetheart. As I said public place is well defined and if your in one you need a public place permit as described here.
So if your concerned about hunting in a state forest - apply for a permit.
http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.as ... t_ID=34424

Thanks cupcake. Thanks also for editing your post to remove the reference to earlier posters as idiots.

The linked page on the Victoria Police web site is interesting. I am very impressed that they seem to have at least made an attempt to update their web site only three months after the change to the legislation. Unfortunately their update made the page more misinformative than it would have been had they done nothing.

Section 130 of the Firearms Act 1996 says that "a person must not carry a loaded firearm or use a firearm in a town or public place or on any thoroughfare or place open to or used by the public for passage with vehicles".

This is wrong. The act doesn't say this and never said it. They have taken the old wording of section 130 and substituted the words "public place" for "populous place".

Victoria Police considers a public place to be a place where people gather, populated or generally frequent. Examples include (but are not limited to); shows or events, designated parks or open spaces like walking tracks.

This is a statement of police policy. Apparently they consider a public place to be something different to what the Victorian parliament has defined it to be. This goes to the question of likelihood of prosecution. As I said in my previous post, I do not believe anyone would be likely to be prosecuted. As to the question of whether it is actually an offence to carry or use a firearm in a state forest, this statement is totally irrelevant.

It should be pointed out that what the police have done here is update some wording on their web site that previously described what they considered to be a "populous place". Again, all they did was change the words "populous place" to "public place". "Populous place" was an undefined term used in the old section 130.

If you want to see what the web site used to look like, see this link:
https://web.archive.org/web/20180313053051/http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=34424

A town is defined as:

a densely populated area within a parish; or
any area declared a city; or
any suburb within a city; or
any land zoned by a Municipal or Shire Council as anything other than land zoned Rural, Environmental Rural, Rural Living, Public Conservation and Resource or Farm Land;
Other zone listings which fall within the definition of town are, Residential, Low Density Residential, Mixed Use, Township, Industrial, Business, Public Land, Public Use, Public Park And Recreation, Special Purpose, Comprehensive Development, Urban, Urban Floodway, Capital City or Docklands.

Under the Road Safety Act 1986 a thoroughfare is defined as any street, road, lane, track, bridge or tunnel that is accessible from both ends or any place that is a highway by virtue of a declaration under sub-section (2)(a) of the Road Safety Act 1986.

A place open to or used by the public for passage with vehicles is considered as being any open place, track, carriageway, footpath, bike path, traffic island, nature strip or any area provided to separate vehicle traffic on any street, road, lane, bridge, thoroughfare, track or other place.

For ease of reference, the Licensing and Regulation Division refers to the above places using the umbrella term, populous places.

All of this relates to the wording of the old section 130, the one that used to be in place before the amendment that this whole thread is about. It is now redundant and irrelevant.

When a person is accused of committing a statutory offence, the courts are required to interpret the wording of the legislation that sets out the offence to determine whether the offence has indeed been committed. This process of statutory interpretation is governed be longstanding rules established by legislation and case law. When the courts are trying to interpret wording in a statute and the statute itself provides a definition of the wording, that is the start and the end of the process. In this case, the act in question provides a definition of the term "public place". What you or Victoria Police or anyone else (including "plonkers") considers to be a public place is totally irrelevant. The definition provided by the act is paramount. That definition was provided in an earlier post. A "public place" includes, amongst other things, "any open place to which the public whether upon or without payment for admittance have or are permitted to have access".

If you used a firearm in a state forest and the police decided to charge you with a section 130 offence, you would have to argue to a judge that a state forest is not an "open place" and/or that the public do not have access to it. How would you rate your chances?

The police often get the law wrong. Do not rely solely on their interpretations. The NSW Police web site states in several places that it is illegal for people to repair their own firearms. This interpretation is inconsistent with the wording of the relevant act and inconsistent with decisions of the NSW Civil and Administrative Tribunal. If their interpretation was correct it would have several ludicrous consequences. Nonetheless, it is their view and it is on their web site.

When amending firearms legislation, Australian state legislatures often use broad, ill considered language that can unintentionally criminalise common practices. Unfortunately, if the meaning of the wording is clear, it doesn't matter what their intention was. What they actually write becomes the law.

I'm fairly confident that a 2002 amendment to the Firearms Act 1996 (NSW) makes it an offence, punishable by up to 20 years of imprisonment, to strip clean and reassemble a pistol in accordance with the manufacturers instructions. This is not what the legislature intended but the poor choice of wording made it so. I don't believe anyone is likely to be prosecuted for this but it is not a good situation.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Nigel » 08 Jul 2018, 4:48 pm

NTSOG wrote:When I asked the firearms officer about hunting in the state forest he responded to the effect he had been dreading the moment someone put him on the spot, believing as he [and some other officers] did that the new wording created a legal minefield and that [currently] he had no safe answer other than to advise me not to hunt in the forest until he received formal advice from the appropriate authority. In advising me not to hunt in the forest he was being completely professional and meeting his duty-of-care to me.

This feedback received by Jim indicates that some within Victoria Police agree with my interpretation of the new provision and are aware that the new provision might make using firearms in state forests illegal. This would make me slightly more concerned about the possibility of being prosecuted.

If I hunted on public land in Victoria, I would be in contact with the Licencing and Regulation Division asking how I apply for the written permission specified in section 130. As far as I can tell, there is no fee specified for this so it should not cost you anything.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Nigel » 08 Jul 2018, 5:07 pm

It should be noted that there is an exemption in section 130 for people hunting under a game licence so deer hunters should be OK.

If you are not required to have a permit to hunt other species in state forests in Victoria, this is the problem area.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Gwion » 08 Jul 2018, 10:12 pm

Thanks for your considered and informative posts, Nigel.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 09 Jul 2018, 2:31 pm

Thank you Nigel for your considered posts on this matter.

I have just this morning spoken to the wife of a serving police officer - they are neighbours - and she reported him being professionally concerned about the whole ''public spaces'' issue in general. She is a shooter also. I will have a chat to him when he is around about Section 130.

You wrote: "It should be noted that there is an exemption in section 130 for people hunting under a game licence so deer hunters should be OK." In my [naïve] mind the issue of public space is linked to the important issue of public safety pure and simple and safety should not be negotiable. However if ordinary licensed shooters may not shoot pests in public forests, but hunters ''licensed'' to hunt game such as deer may hunt in such places with rifles, then it is clear that public safety is a ''negotiable'' concept in practice and some shooters - game hunters - are potentially considered more safe than others, e.g. pest/feral hunters. There is, of course, no restriction on bow hunters in such public spaces.

It's all very confusing and dispiriting,

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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Nigel » 09 Jul 2018, 3:28 pm

NTSOG wrote:You wrote: "It should be noted that there is an exemption in section 130 for people hunting under a game licence so deer hunters should be OK." In my [naïve] mind the issue of public space is linked to the important issue of public safety pure and simple and safety should not be negotiable. However if ordinary licensed shooters may not shoot pests in public forests, but hunters ''licensed'' to hunt game such as deer may hunt in such places with rifles, then it is clear that public safety is a ''negotiable'' concept in practice and some shooters - game hunters - are potentially considered more safe than others, e.g. pest/feral hunters. There is, of course, no restriction on bow hunters in such public spaces.

I don't think anyone involved in the drafting would have thought about it in that much detail. This issue is almost certainly the result of an oversight rather than a deliberate policy decision.

They used the "public place" definition from the Summary Offences Act 1966 (Vic) because it was easy. State forests should be included in that definition. If someone is flashing bush walkers in a state forest, they can only be charged under section 19 of the Summary Offences Act if a state forest is a public place.

The problem is, when they appropriated the Summary Offences Act definition rather than writing a new one, they needed to think through and provide exemptions for all situations were people should be able to use firearms in areas that would be considered a "public place" as defined in the the Summary Offences Act. Hunting on public land is the obvious example. They attempted to do this with exemptions like the game hunting exemption but it would appear that their efforts fell short. In the longer term, the legislature will have to amend section 130 again to provide a clear exemption that covers all legal hunting on public land in Victoria. Either that or a court will need to provide a ruling that the existing exemptions cover all relevant scenarios.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Wombat » 09 Jul 2018, 6:39 pm

A disturbing thought has occurred to me. With the defacto removal of shooting in state forests the "genuine reason" of possibly hundreds of thousands of Victorians who have used the Dept of whatever expression of interest form are now without a valid genuine reason............
I think I'll get a couple of property letters just in case things turn really smelly.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Jul 2018, 7:13 pm

Wombat wrote:A disturbing thought has occurred to me. With the defacto removal of shooting in state forests the "genuine reason" of possibly hundreds of thousands of Victorians who have used the Dept of whatever expression of interest form are now without a valid genuine reason............
I think I'll get a couple of property letters just in case things turn really smelly.



For a moment I thought a deer game licence would cover it. But not so. Could get very interesting.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Nigel » 09 Jul 2018, 9:06 pm

Stop panicking guys, I just figured out how this works.

The exemption in section 130(2A)(g) of the Firearms Act 1996 (Vic) makes sense when you look at the special conditions that apply to a category A or B longarm licence as set out in Schedule 2 of the Act.

The exemption basically allows you to use a firearm in a public place if you are acting "in accordance" with your licence.

The special conditions in Schedule 2 specifically authorise licence holders to do a number of things and include the following wording:
(2) If the holder of the licence has obtained the licence for the reason of hunting, sport or target shooting or primary production, the holder is also authorised to hunt pest animals on Crown land, if such hunting is in accordance with any Act, regulations or other instrument regulating hunting on that land.

This authorisation does not apply to the holder of a licence who has obtained that licence for the purposes of sport or target shooting if that person is using a black powder ball firing cannon.

(3) The holder is authorised to carry or use a longarm, the carriage or use of which is authorised by the licence, on an approved shooting range.

Basically this means that any licence holder is OK to hunt on crown land or shoot at a shooting range. Both of these locations would be public places for the purposes of the Act. Unfortunately no hunting with cannon allowed in state forests.

Jim, maybe you can bring the fuzz up to speed on this.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Wombat » 09 Jul 2018, 9:26 pm

Ok that makes sense now.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 10 Jul 2018, 6:20 am

G'Day Nigel,

Thank you for the further research.

I spoke to another local property owner and long-time shooter yesterday who was quite clear in his mind that state forests are out-of-bounds for pest/feral shooters. However Section 130(2A)(g) of the Firearms Act 1996 (Vic) would seem to be the ''escape clause'' for Cat. A/B shooters.

I assume part ''(f) a person who holds a licence under this Act, and who is possessing, carrying or using a firearm which the person is authorised to possess, carry or use in accordance with the licence and who is acting under a game licence under the Wildlife Act 1975'' covers deer hunters in state forests, etc.

I will contact the local firearms officer to ask further about this.

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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Oldbloke » 10 Jul 2018, 9:47 am

Talk about confusing.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 10 Jul 2018, 10:40 am

Oldbloke: "Talk about confusing."

You're spot on there!

As my neighbour [the copper's wife] said to me it will be the local policeman who will deal with shooting/firearms issues in the field, not the Firearms Officer and the local may or may not know what is happening in a legal sense or what should happen. In fact the local Firearms Officer told me that the policeman at the nearest station about 10 kms away would not know anything about recent changes - I had attempted to see him first - but he was away from the station.

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