Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Questions about Victorian gun and ammunition laws. Victorian Firearms Act 1996.

Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Nigel » 08 Jul 2018, 4:48 pm

NTSOG wrote:When I asked the firearms officer about hunting in the state forest he responded to the effect he had been dreading the moment someone put him on the spot, believing as he [and some other officers] did that the new wording created a legal minefield and that [currently] he had no safe answer other than to advise me not to hunt in the forest until he received formal advice from the appropriate authority. In advising me not to hunt in the forest he was being completely professional and meeting his duty-of-care to me.

This feedback received by Jim indicates that some within Victoria Police agree with my interpretation of the new provision and are aware that the new provision might make using firearms in state forests illegal. This would make me slightly more concerned about the possibility of being prosecuted.

If I hunted on public land in Victoria, I would be in contact with the Licencing and Regulation Division asking how I apply for the written permission specified in section 130. As far as I can tell, there is no fee specified for this so it should not cost you anything.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Nigel » 08 Jul 2018, 5:07 pm

It should be noted that there is an exemption in section 130 for people hunting under a game licence so deer hunters should be OK.

If you are not required to have a permit to hunt other species in state forests in Victoria, this is the problem area.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Gwion » 08 Jul 2018, 10:12 pm

Thanks for your considered and informative posts, Nigel.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 09 Jul 2018, 2:31 pm

Thank you Nigel for your considered posts on this matter.

I have just this morning spoken to the wife of a serving police officer - they are neighbours - and she reported him being professionally concerned about the whole ''public spaces'' issue in general. She is a shooter also. I will have a chat to him when he is around about Section 130.

You wrote: "It should be noted that there is an exemption in section 130 for people hunting under a game licence so deer hunters should be OK." In my [naïve] mind the issue of public space is linked to the important issue of public safety pure and simple and safety should not be negotiable. However if ordinary licensed shooters may not shoot pests in public forests, but hunters ''licensed'' to hunt game such as deer may hunt in such places with rifles, then it is clear that public safety is a ''negotiable'' concept in practice and some shooters - game hunters - are potentially considered more safe than others, e.g. pest/feral hunters. There is, of course, no restriction on bow hunters in such public spaces.

It's all very confusing and dispiriting,

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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Nigel » 09 Jul 2018, 3:28 pm

NTSOG wrote:You wrote: "It should be noted that there is an exemption in section 130 for people hunting under a game licence so deer hunters should be OK." In my [naïve] mind the issue of public space is linked to the important issue of public safety pure and simple and safety should not be negotiable. However if ordinary licensed shooters may not shoot pests in public forests, but hunters ''licensed'' to hunt game such as deer may hunt in such places with rifles, then it is clear that public safety is a ''negotiable'' concept in practice and some shooters - game hunters - are potentially considered more safe than others, e.g. pest/feral hunters. There is, of course, no restriction on bow hunters in such public spaces.

I don't think anyone involved in the drafting would have thought about it in that much detail. This issue is almost certainly the result of an oversight rather than a deliberate policy decision.

They used the "public place" definition from the Summary Offences Act 1966 (Vic) because it was easy. State forests should be included in that definition. If someone is flashing bush walkers in a state forest, they can only be charged under section 19 of the Summary Offences Act if a state forest is a public place.

The problem is, when they appropriated the Summary Offences Act definition rather than writing a new one, they needed to think through and provide exemptions for all situations were people should be able to use firearms in areas that would be considered a "public place" as defined in the the Summary Offences Act. Hunting on public land is the obvious example. They attempted to do this with exemptions like the game hunting exemption but it would appear that their efforts fell short. In the longer term, the legislature will have to amend section 130 again to provide a clear exemption that covers all legal hunting on public land in Victoria. Either that or a court will need to provide a ruling that the existing exemptions cover all relevant scenarios.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Wombat » 09 Jul 2018, 6:39 pm

A disturbing thought has occurred to me. With the defacto removal of shooting in state forests the "genuine reason" of possibly hundreds of thousands of Victorians who have used the Dept of whatever expression of interest form are now without a valid genuine reason............
I think I'll get a couple of property letters just in case things turn really smelly.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Jul 2018, 7:13 pm

Wombat wrote:A disturbing thought has occurred to me. With the defacto removal of shooting in state forests the "genuine reason" of possibly hundreds of thousands of Victorians who have used the Dept of whatever expression of interest form are now without a valid genuine reason............
I think I'll get a couple of property letters just in case things turn really smelly.



For a moment I thought a deer game licence would cover it. But not so. Could get very interesting.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Nigel » 09 Jul 2018, 9:06 pm

Stop panicking guys, I just figured out how this works.

The exemption in section 130(2A)(g) of the Firearms Act 1996 (Vic) makes sense when you look at the special conditions that apply to a category A or B longarm licence as set out in Schedule 2 of the Act.

The exemption basically allows you to use a firearm in a public place if you are acting "in accordance" with your licence.

The special conditions in Schedule 2 specifically authorise licence holders to do a number of things and include the following wording:
(2) If the holder of the licence has obtained the licence for the reason of hunting, sport or target shooting or primary production, the holder is also authorised to hunt pest animals on Crown land, if such hunting is in accordance with any Act, regulations or other instrument regulating hunting on that land.

This authorisation does not apply to the holder of a licence who has obtained that licence for the purposes of sport or target shooting if that person is using a black powder ball firing cannon.

(3) The holder is authorised to carry or use a longarm, the carriage or use of which is authorised by the licence, on an approved shooting range.

Basically this means that any licence holder is OK to hunt on crown land or shoot at a shooting range. Both of these locations would be public places for the purposes of the Act. Unfortunately no hunting with cannon allowed in state forests.

Jim, maybe you can bring the fuzz up to speed on this.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Wombat » 09 Jul 2018, 9:26 pm

Ok that makes sense now.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 10 Jul 2018, 6:20 am

G'Day Nigel,

Thank you for the further research.

I spoke to another local property owner and long-time shooter yesterday who was quite clear in his mind that state forests are out-of-bounds for pest/feral shooters. However Section 130(2A)(g) of the Firearms Act 1996 (Vic) would seem to be the ''escape clause'' for Cat. A/B shooters.

I assume part ''(f) a person who holds a licence under this Act, and who is possessing, carrying or using a firearm which the person is authorised to possess, carry or use in accordance with the licence and who is acting under a game licence under the Wildlife Act 1975'' covers deer hunters in state forests, etc.

I will contact the local firearms officer to ask further about this.

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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Oldbloke » 10 Jul 2018, 9:47 am

Talk about confusing.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 10 Jul 2018, 10:40 am

Oldbloke: "Talk about confusing."

You're spot on there!

As my neighbour [the copper's wife] said to me it will be the local policeman who will deal with shooting/firearms issues in the field, not the Firearms Officer and the local may or may not know what is happening in a legal sense or what should happen. In fact the local Firearms Officer told me that the policeman at the nearest station about 10 kms away would not know anything about recent changes - I had attempted to see him first - but he was away from the station.

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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Nigel » 10 Jul 2018, 2:32 pm

NTSOG wrote:I assume part ''(f) a person who holds a licence under this Act, and who is possessing, carrying or using a firearm which the person is authorised to possess, carry or use in accordance with the licence and who is acting under a game licence under the Wildlife Act 1975'' covers deer hunters in state forests, etc.

Correct. That exemption was included because game animals do not fall within the definition of "pest animals" that the 130(2A)(g) exemption relies on.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by doc » 10 Jul 2018, 5:16 pm

If that exemption is legit then it opens up a larger can of worms and we've come full circle:

In that if we're still permitted to hunt in public places in accordance with our license - but the removal of towns and populous place has been removed.

With that 'escape' clause as you put it in play - if public place includes state forests, and licensed shooters (for the purpose of hunting) are permitted to hunt in public places (aka our state forest) then does this mean they would then permitted to hunt outside of the state forest in public places as well provided we meet the rest of the requirements?

Does this mean I can dust off the ol' air rifle and see if I can get some mice in the back shed like the good ol' days? ;-)
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Nigel » 11 Jul 2018, 2:05 am

The exemption doesn't provide any general authorisation to hunt in "public places". All it says is, if you are hunting pest animals on crown land where hunting is permitted, you are not breaching s130 even if the crown land is a public place.

Using the air rifle in the shed may be OK. The old version of section 130 would have prevented this if your shed was in a town or populace place. Your shed is not a "public place" so the new s130 only prevents this to the extent that it involves "reckless disregard for the safety of any person". If firing an air rifle in your shed is safe, it is not prevented by section 130.

I am not advising you to do this. If you have neighbours near by and they see or hear you doing this, the chances of a visit from the police are high. Also, my comments are restricted to section 130. It is possible that there are other provisions that make this an offence. I would check the law very thoroughly before doing this.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Gwion » 11 Jul 2018, 5:57 am

In Tas there is wording to the effect of 'firearms must not be used closer than 250m of sny dwelling without the permision of the occupant". This is separate to as any reference to populace places.

Is there any such wording in the Vic Act?
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Mr.Seacucumber » 11 Jul 2018, 8:14 am

Gwion wrote:In Tas there is wording to the effect of 'firearms must not be used closer than 250m of sny dwelling without the permision of the occupant". This is separate to as any reference to populace places.

Is there any such wording in the Vic Act?


There is in the 2008 amendements for target shooting. That’s probabaly what they would use to cover that.

Also

This authorisation does not apply to the holder of a licence who has obtained that licence for the purposes of sport or target shooting if that person is using a black powder ball firing cannon.


I am very disappointed by this, guess I’ll have to take the pirate ship cannon off the hilux.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by doc » 11 Jul 2018, 9:28 am

Thanks for this information Nigel. It's a very interesting read.

I wonder whether or not we'll get any information from officials (DFO's or higher) to confirm that exemption.

I find it interesting that in this case, the re-write appears to restrict more -but infact they've tangled up their own web so much that it appears to have loosened slightly. Personally I'm struggling to find the need for a rewrite in the first place. The old one seemed to make more sense (at least to a non-lawyer like me).

As for the shed - I agree - I wouldn't recommend discharging a air rifle in the back shed to anyone with the way that the anti-gun hysteria appears to be increasing these days - the local media if they found out would have a circus. I could imagine pinging a few mice in the back shed with an air gun could be reported as "High powered silenced assault gun used to murder family dwelling in back shed of gun owners property", let alone what the "Gun Control "Experts"" they interview would come up with. ;-)
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 11 Jul 2018, 4:43 pm

G'Day all,

I am still trying to contact the local firearms officer about Nigel's queries re:

''2A) A person does not commit an offence under subsection (1), (1A) or (1B) if the person is—

(f) a person who holds a licence under this Act, and who is possessing, carrying or using a firearm which the person is authorised to possess, carry or use in accordance with the licence and who is acting under a game licence under the Wildlife Act 1975 ; or

(g) a person who holds a licence under this Act, and who is possessing, carrying or using a firearm in accordance with the licence and with any other requirements of any other law, licence, permit or other authority that applies to the possession, carriage or use.".'


He's been out of his office every time I have called.

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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Gun-nut » 11 Jul 2018, 8:17 pm

Sooooo...has this all been cleared up then? This whole situation is indeed very confusing.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Wombat » 11 Jul 2018, 8:30 pm

Gun-nut wrote:Sooooo...has this all been cleared up then? This whole situation is indeed very confusing.

It would appear so, however it is so confusing that some Police may misinterpret the current situation.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Oldbloke » 11 Jul 2018, 9:35 pm

Gun-nut wrote:Sooooo...has this all been cleared up then? This whole situation is indeed very confusing.


Looks about a clear as a muddy dam if you ask me.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 11 Jul 2018, 10:30 pm

Hey I got 6 acres.... sp in vic I can hunt rats in my shed with an air rifle.... actually considering their size and numbers, I rather a 22lr semi auto.

As long as it's not near the road... public....
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 12 Jul 2018, 6:52 am

Gun-nut: ''it is so confusing that some Police may misinterpret the current situation."

As I wrote in my opening post on this issue - having worked for nearly 25 years in a large state government department - it is not uncommon in large bureaucracies for confusion about application of laws and regulations to occur between the bureaucrats at the top in head offices and those who operate in the field. Then there is the confusion that often exists between different government Departments and their agencies. [When I worked in the Public Service I had two signs above my desk. One, ''ADVENTURELAND'', had an arrow pointed down at my desk. The other ''FANTASYLAND'' pointed toward Head Office in Melbourne. As this suggests I was not interested in climbing the bureaucratic career ladder!]

Here's another example I encountered when studying the regulations governing hunting:

''Game Management Authority

Land Classification: Forest Parks (Cobboboonee and Otway) and other unoccupied Crown land

Hunting Permitted?: Game species may be hunted during the open season only. Pest animals may be hunted at any time, noting, it is an offence to be in possession of a spotlight and firearm in recognised deer habitat.'' [My Italics]

I asked the local Firearms Officer if infrared night sights [and thermal] were prohibited with spotlights. He confirmed they were included and told me such aides could not be used at night. However the State Forest we were discussing is not "recognised deer habitat". [There are some red deer roaming around to be fair.] In fact the whole Shire in which I live is not considered ''recognised deer habitat" - I rang the Game Management Authority and asked. I certainly would not test this by going out after dark with a night sight lest I be charged and have to talk my way out of it in Court, but it is just another example of confusion about regulations and interpretation.


Hi Ziad, I shoot pest birds in my sheds with an air rifle, but my property is rated as a farm, is on the edge of bush and thousands of acres of pine plantations and there are numerous shooters including a couple of coppers living in the district. It seems certain though that I cannot shoot in my smaller front paddocks near the road as I believe there is a 250m ''distance'' requirement. This a shame as there is a fox which regularly hunts around a large dam at the front of the property - he was flushed from the long grass by me this morning as I fed the cattle - but I [legally] cannot shoot the blighter.

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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Nigel » 12 Jul 2018, 1:12 pm

It seems certain though that I cannot shoot in my smaller front paddocks near the road as I believe there is a 250m ''distance'' requirement.

I think the distance restrictions you are referring to come from regulation 22 of the Firearms Regulations 2008 (Vic). These only apply to "sport or target shooting", not hunting. The regulation prevents people engaged in sport or target shooting from discharging a firearm within 250m of certain dwellings or within 100m of public roads.

I don't think that regulation would stop you from shooting that fox. If it was unsafe to do so, you would be breaching other provisions of the Firearms Act.
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by No1Mk3 » 12 Jul 2018, 3:12 pm

Nigel is correct, you can shoot right on (inside!!) your fenceline, 3m from the road edge, providing your are not target shooting. Other factors notwithstanding r: zoning, where the projie ends up etc, Cheers
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 12 Jul 2018, 6:38 pm

Thanks for clarifying that Nigel and No1Mk3. I had only been able to find the target shooting regulations specifying 250m.

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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by NTSOG » 13 Jul 2018, 10:17 am

G'day All,

I have just spoken to the local Firearms Officer about the exemption clauses and he was adamant that '2(g) a person who holds a licence under this Act, and who is possessing, carrying or using a firearm in accordance with the licence and with any other requirements of any other law, licence, permit or other authority that applies to the possession, carriage or use.' is not sufficient and, in context with the new wording, too vague to cover those who might wish to shoot in a 'public place' like a state forest in Victoria under s130 Offences as to possession, carriage and use of firearms in certain places.

The officer stated, that, together with several others, he asked the Registry for a clear and definitive operational definition some time ago and is still waiting for a response.

He has taken a record of my details and will contact me when he knows more.

He is equally concerned about the lack of specific prohibition in the new wording about people shooting in private suburban back yards if safely managed by shooters so that the, clause '(b) in any other place with reckless disregard for the safety of any person' is not breached.

So State Forests are out for now for me until there a clear statement or operational definition.

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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by doc » 13 Jul 2018, 11:12 am

Thanks NTSOG for the update.

Normally I'd say don't hold your breath or expect a timely response from the Registry - however if the police will be equally concerned about the lack of specific prohibition in the new wording regarding private suburban back yards - this may work in our favour as we may just see a fire lit under this and it resolved a little quicker!
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Re: Recent change to Victorian Firearms Act, Section 130

Post by Gwion » 13 Jul 2018, 11:44 am

Maybe on of the people with legal training here can draft a petition to provide a clear definition of 'public place' in the Vic Firearms Act that does not infringe on hunting access to state forest. Included could be suggested wording to eliminate the concerns of shooting in suburban environs.
This would show proactive concern from the Vic firearms community.
It's at least worth a try and to go on record on this issue.
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