Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

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Re: Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

Post by Ziad » 19 Jan 2019, 1:58 pm

Rotfl... man are you a lawyer...or a normal person.

Same as I don't diagnose my kid if they are sick... but take them to a qualified doctor... you can discuss your theory with a lawyer and ideally someone who is a speacilist in firearms law in NSW. Maybe you are right and you have found the biggest loophole in the law ever.

but the common sense answer here is that your reasoning has to be flawed.
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Re: Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

Post by Nigel » 19 Jan 2019, 2:08 pm

Ziad wrote:Rotfl... man are you a lawyer...or a normal person.

Same as I don't diagnose my kid if they are sick... but take them to a qualified doctor... you can discuss your theory with a lawyer and ideally someone who is a speacilist in firearms law in NSW. Maybe you are right and you have found the biggest loophole in the law ever.

but the common sense answer here is that your reasoning has to be flawed.


Sorry dude, I was thinking that this was the 'Australian gun laws' forum where people discuss Australian gun laws.
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Re: Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

Post by pomemax » 19 Jan 2019, 2:47 pm

Sport/target shooting
A licence that is issued for the genuine reason of sport/target shooting is subject to the following conditions (in addition to any other conditions to which the licence is subject):
(a) the licensee must comply with any applicable requirements of Part 10 (Participation requirements for club members),
(b) the licence does not authorise the use of a firearm except at a shooting range approved under Part 8 or under the authority conferred by clause 33 (Licences and permits extend to authorise sighting in, patterning and related activities).
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Re: Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

Post by dpskipper » 19 Jan 2019, 2:55 pm

I think you're only looking at one legal area Nigel instead of the whole picture. Whilst one document might say that you can sight in firearms on private property, another, separate document says that Cat H people must use pistols at and approved range only. One does not cancel out the other...
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Re: Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

Post by brett1868 » 19 Jan 2019, 5:08 pm

Nigel,
That section of legislation you're quoting is not applicable to handguns and was introduced to allow farmers / pest controllers to zero their firearms on private property. Prior to the 2017 amendment it was technically illegal to test ammo or zero a rifle on private property, as stupid as that sounds it's a fact.

The line "This clause authorises the use of a firearm on any land on which use of the firearm is not otherwise unlawful and is not limited to use at an approved shooting range" is what prohibits the use of pistols on private property.

Have a look at this section,
https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/#/view/act/1996/46/part2/div1

Specifically
7A Offence of unauthorised possession or use of firearms generally
(1) A person must not possess or use a firearm unless the person is authorised to do so by a licence or permit.
Maximum penalty: imprisonment for 5 years.
(2) Without limiting the operation of subsection (1), a person who is the holder of a licence is guilty of an offence under this section if the person:
(a) uses a firearm for any purpose otherwise than in connection with the purpose established by the person as being the genuine reason for possessing or using the firearm, or
(b) contravenes any condition of the licence.


On the back of your license it will state that "H - Target Shooting" which is the only legal activity and it's illegal to "Target" shoot on private property.
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Re: Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

Post by Nigel » 20 Jan 2019, 1:32 am

pomemax wrote:Sport/target shooting
A licence that is issued for the genuine reason of sport/target shooting is subject to the following conditions (in addition to any other conditions to which the licence is subject):
(a) the licensee must comply with any applicable requirements of Part 10 (Participation requirements for club members),
(b) the licence does not authorise the use of a firearm except at a shooting range approved under Part 8 or under the authority conferred by clause 33 (Licences and permits extend to authorise sighting in, patterning and related activities).

Thanks. Just so people know, that's clause 29 of the Firearms Regulation 2017 (NSW).

Sub-clause (b) confirms that a licence issued for the genuine reason of sport/target shooting authorises the use of a firearm under the authority conferred by clause 33.
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Re: Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

Post by Nigel » 20 Jan 2019, 1:41 am

dpskipper wrote:I think you're only looking at one legal area Nigel instead of the whole picture. Whilst one document might say that you can sight in firearms on private property, another, separate document says that Cat H people must use pistols at and approved range only. One does not cancel out the other...

That's not really how it works mate. Laws are made by the legislature and set out in statutes. If two statutes are inconsistent, the later statute overrides the earlier one. If a statute contains an internal inconsistency, the courts are required by the rules of statutory interpretation to interpret the statute in a way that eliminates the inconsistency.
Last edited by Nigel on 21 Jan 2019, 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

Post by zhuk » 20 Jan 2019, 7:09 am

brett1868 wrote:
Regular handgun PTAs are running at about 6wks ATM even with the online system, so add that to the 28 day waiting period...they're not like longarm PTAs


I just got 2 back in 35 days including the 28 Day wait so it's not too bad at the moment. Regular pistol is taking 2 weeks and High Cal around 3 weeks with the new online system. These 2 are H3 and as they are the first in that category I had to wait the 28 days which is a bit retarded as I have multiple pistols in other categories. The B2 & A2 PTA's were 5 days from application till arrival in the mailbox which is a vast improvement on several months ago when they were taking 4-6 weeks.

PTA_2.JPG


/sigh lol

This was my 5th handgun and it took 6 weeks with the new online system.
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Re: Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

Post by zhuk » 20 Jan 2019, 7:29 am

Have a look at this "Genuine Reason" table (dated Dec 2018) for anyone still wondering about the validity of using Cat H on private land. Does it mention anything other than 'Sport/Target shooting' with 'club membership'? No it does not.

https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/133134/GR_TABLE.pdf#page=1&zoom=auto,-13,-446

If you are still unsure, why not just get it from the source and simply email the Firearms Registry? I am sure they will set you straight.
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Re: Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

Post by zhuk » 20 Jan 2019, 8:43 am

*double post*
Last edited by zhuk on 21 Jan 2019, 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

Post by pomemax » 20 Jan 2019, 7:06 pm

Nigel do you have pistols or just rifles . what classes of firearms do you have on your licence.
Brett 1868 i think you may have hit it hes confusing HUNTING H on the back of his licence with "H"class that is printed on the front
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Re: Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

Post by Nigel » 20 Jan 2019, 9:34 pm

brett1868 wrote:Nigel,
That section of legislation you're quoting is not applicable to handguns and was introduced to allow farmers / pest controllers to zero their firearms on private property. Prior to the 2017 amendment it was technically illegal to test ammo or zero a rifle on private property, as stupid as that sounds it's a fact.

Clause 33 of the regulations is not restricted to farmers and pest controllers. The authority provided by clause 33 applies to any "licence or permit that authorises the use of a firearm". Clause 29 confirms that the authority provided by clause 33 applies to "a licence that is issued for the genuine reason of sport/target shooting".
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Re: Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

Post by Nigel » 20 Jan 2019, 10:44 pm

brett1868 wrote:The line "This clause authorises the use of a firearm on any land on which use of the firearm is not otherwise unlawful and is not limited to use at an approved shooting range" is what prohibits the use of pistols on private property.

Have a look at this section,
https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/#/view/act/1996/46/part2/div1

Specifically
7A Offence of unauthorised possession or use of firearms generally
(1) A person must not possess or use a firearm unless the person is authorised to do so by a licence or permit.
Maximum penalty: imprisonment for 5 years.
(2) Without limiting the operation of subsection (1), a person who is the holder of a licence is guilty of an offence under this section if the person:
(a) uses a firearm for any purpose otherwise than in connection with the purpose established by the person as being the genuine reason for possessing or using the firearm, or
(b) contravenes any condition of the licence.

A list of the purposes that can be established as the genuine reason for possessing or using a firearm are set out in the table in section 12 of the Firearms Act 1996 (NSW). I think everyone is familiar with that list and understands that the purpose/reason we are talking about here is "sport/target shooting".

The table in section 12 does not distinguish between categories of licence. Whether you have a category H (sport/target shooting) or category AB (sport/target shooting) licence, the relevant purpose is the same - sport/target shooting.

Are you arguing that the uses authorised by clause 33 of the regulations would not be considered to be "in connection" with "sport/target shooting" and would therefore be an offence pursuant to section 7(2)(a) or 7A(2)(a)?

This would be a strange conclusion. I think the wording of clauses 33 and 29 of the regulations make it very clear that the drafters intended the authority in clause 33 to apply to licences issued for the genuine reason of sport/target shooting. You appear to be arguing that a court would hold that a use is not "in connection" with a particular purpose even thought the law has specifically authorised that use by holders of licences issued for that exact purpose.

Do you think the authorised uses in clause 33 are applicable to a category AB (hunting/vermin control) licence? How are those uses "in connection" with "hunting/vermin control"?

Do you think the authorised uses in clause 33 are applicable to a category AB (sport/target shooting) licence? How are those uses "in connection" with "sport/target shooting" when you use a rifle but not if you use a handgun?
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Re: Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

Post by dpskipper » 20 Jan 2019, 11:19 pm

Nigel, have you voiced this to the relevant authorities? Someone of your knowledge and passion would be a fair match against the FAR. If you could clarify with them to put in writing that Cat H use on private property for sighting in is legal I would appreciate it as It seems we are all out of our league with the law compared to you.

Do keep me informed, I'm rooting for you.
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Re: Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

Post by Nigel » 20 Jan 2019, 11:56 pm

dpskipper wrote:Nigel, have you voiced this to the relevant authorities? Someone of your knowledge and passion would be a fair match against the FAR. If you could clarify with them to put in writing that Cat H use on private property for sighting in is legal I would appreciate it as It seems we are all out of our league with the law compared to you.

Do keep me informed, I'm rooting for you.

Thanks mate. I may write to them and seek clarification. I wouldn't be holding my breath though. The police are not very good at interpreting the law and, especially in relation to firearms laws, have a tendency to interpret them the way they want.

It seems there is a strong community belief that any use of handguns on private land by category H (sport/target) licence holders in NSW would be an offence. I suspect that the police would share this view. The legislation is complex and, as demonstrated by this thread, it's easy for people to find passages that they think provide support for their view.

I recently obtained a category H licence and have heard this view expressed many times. I read the legislation because I like to go to the source to understand exactly what my rights and obligations are. What I read in the legislation is not consistent with what I keep hearing from my fellow shooters. That's why I posted in this thread. I want to understand the source of this view. If I really am wrong I would like know but I haven't heard any compelling arguments yet.
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Re: Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

Post by dpskipper » 21 Jan 2019, 12:04 am

Nigel wrote:
dpskipper wrote:Nigel, have you voiced this to the relevant authorities? Someone of your knowledge and passion would be a fair match against the FAR. If you could clarify with them to put in writing that Cat H use on private property for sighting in is legal I would appreciate it as It seems we are all out of our league with the law compared to you.

Do keep me informed, I'm rooting for you.

Thanks mate. I may write to them and seek clarification. I wouldn't be holding my breath though. The police are not very good at interpreting the law and, especially in relation to firearms laws, have a tendency to interpret them the way they want.

It seems there is a strong community belief that any use of handguns on private land by category H (sport/target) licence holders in NSW would be an offence. I suspect that the police would share this view. The legislation is complex and, as demonstrated by this thread, it's easy for people to find passages that they think provide support for their view.

I recently obtained a category H licence and have heard this view expressed many times. I read the legislation because I like to go to the source to understand exactly what my rights and obligations are. What I read in the legislation is not consistent with what I keep hearing from my fellow shooters. That's why I posted in this thread. I want to understand the source of this view. If I really am wrong I would like know but I haven't heard any compelling arguments yet.

If you wanna start a go fund me I'd be the first to put money down. Heck I'd pay to put you in a room with a firearms lawyer for half an hour and watch outside! :drinks:
But it seems you have demonstrated a case as the laws are a bit wishy washy, the police adamantly hold one position, but the legislation doesn't lend to that position at all. Maybe we can take this to the sensible state tribunal (VCAT, QCAT, NCAT etc)

Wish you the Best
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Re: Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

Post by JWD40 » 21 Jan 2019, 8:28 am

ok, I’ve always been 100% sure that pistols can't be used anywhere other than an approved range. And at this point in time, I’d still wouldn't be using it anywhere else.

However, I’m actually starting to agree with Nigel.

Clause 33 does actually seem to give you the exemption. I've read the Firearms Act and Firearms Regulation a number of times to try work it out. And each time I look at it, I become more sure he's correct.

A clause that seem relevant to this discussion state that licences issued for sport/target can’t be used for hunting and must be at an approved range... but clause 33 does seem to actually give an exemption to this clause (it doesn't allow you to hunt, but indicates that you can still sight in on private land)

One thing that I’ve also noted tho, is that probationary pistol licence holders must only possess a pistol while under supervision and on the premises of a pistol club. Hence, clause 33 would not apply here.

But i'm not advising anyone does it without speaking to a lawyer first.
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Re: Bringing a pistol from the US to Aus ??

Post by zhuk » 21 Jan 2019, 9:53 am

Settling in for the Registry's reply lol Image
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