Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Questions about Queensland gun and ammunition laws. QLD Weapons Act 1990.

Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by Rod_outbak » 15 Feb 2019, 7:23 am

All,

Idly thinking about things today, and the issue of us common folk not being allowed to own 'Ordnance'.

I have always assumed that the law is prohibiting things like cannons, rocket/missile launchers, and their consumables.

However, I wondered if the accessories for such equipment, also fell under this same banner?

For instance:-
What about say, the optics/rangefinder off a field artillery piece?
What about say, the firing pin from a heavy cannon?
What about an inert shell from a 20mm cannon?
What about the projectile from a 40mm bofors (assuming it is inert)?
What about a cannon ball?

I know that none of the above would be deemed 'restricted' if they were for a rifle below .50 Cal, but I've never looked at how the firearms laws view the accessories for Ordnance.
Anyone know?
I've not really looked into the limits for owning ex-mil accessories, but I've seen plenty of it over the years.
MANY years back, one of my uncles living room had 3 WW1 large brass cannon shells that had been engraved. Beautiful works of art (not sure if it was trench art or post-war), but I now wonder if that sort of thing is allowed these days?

Cheers,

Rod.
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by bladeracer » 15 Feb 2019, 10:54 am

Rod_outbak wrote:All,

Idly thinking about things today, and the issue of us common folk not being allowed to own 'Ordnance'.

I have always assumed that the law is prohibiting things like cannons, rocket/missile launchers, and their consumables.

However, I wondered if the accessories for such equipment, also fell under this same banner?

For instance:-
What about say, the optics/rangefinder off a field artillery piece?
What about say, the firing pin from a heavy cannon?
What about an inert shell from a 20mm cannon?
What about the projectile from a 40mm bofors (assuming it is inert)?
What about a cannon ball?

I know that none of the above would be deemed 'restricted' if they were for a rifle below .50 Cal, but I've never looked at how the firearms laws view the accessories for Ordnance.
Anyone know?
I've not really looked into the limits for owning ex-mil accessories, but I've seen plenty of it over the years.
MANY years back, one of my uncles living room had 3 WW1 large brass cannon shells that had been engraved. Beautiful works of art (not sure if it was trench art or post-war), but I now wonder if that sort of thing is allowed these days?

Cheers,

Rod.


Ordnance is bigger than 20mm I think. I doubt any of those non-ammo items are restricted, unless perhaps if the rangefinder has radium in it.
I wanted to import a complete inert 88mm AT round from the US in the nineties. The round was only a few hundred bucks, and shipping was bugger all. But I had to pay for a certificate stating it was inert before it could be shipped. And it had to be sent directly to the Army here to be reevaluated as inert...at my cost. Making it in excess of $10k for an inert round.
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by Noisydad » 15 Feb 2019, 11:12 am

You can own and live fire canon. They’re registered as a single shot shotty. Seymour Black Powder Club has a (live firing) target event for canon.
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by bladeracer » 15 Feb 2019, 11:37 am

Noisydad wrote:You can own and live fire canon. They’re registered as a single shot shotty. Seymour Black Powder Club has a (live firing) target event for canon.


I think they do have a maximum bore size though?
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by Rod_outbak » 15 Feb 2019, 11:39 am

bladeracer,
If the rangefinder is free of radium, do you think it'd likely be allowable? It sounds a stupid question, but I keep thinking about the stupidity we are seeing in WA firearms legislation, and I start to wonder if the federal people wouldnt get just as squirrelly if they think the common folk might possess anything to do with ordnance.

Noisydad,
Is the type of cannon you can own, all types, or is it restricted to smooth-bore, or blackpowder, or what?

Could you front up with a 25 pounder from WW2, and be allowed to fire it??
[I wouldnt have thought so.]

This is where I get confused; what is the delineation between something that is obviously historical (say; a civil-war era wheeled cannon), and modern military ordnance?

Thanks to you both for replying.

Cheers,

Rod.
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by Noisydad » 15 Feb 2019, 11:52 am

Canon are black powder and 2” bore max. Don’t think anyone could afford to feed anything bigger than anyway.
There's still a few of Wile. E Coyote's ideas that I haven't tried yet.
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by bladeracer » 15 Feb 2019, 11:57 am

Rod_outbak wrote:bladeracer,
If the rangefinder is free of radium, do you think it'd likely be allowable? It sounds a stupid question, but I keep thinking about the stupidity we are seeing in WA firearms legislation, and I start to wonder if the federal people wouldnt get just as squirrelly if they think the common folk might possess anything to do with ordnance.

Noisydad,
Is the type of cannon you can own, all types, or is it restricted to smooth-bore, or blackpowder, or what?

Could you front up with a 25 pounder from WW2, and be allowed to fire it??
[I wouldnt have thought so.]

This is where I get confused; what is the delineation between something that is obviously historical (say; a civil-war era wheeled cannon), and modern military ordnance?

Thanks to you both for replying.

Cheers,

Rod.


I agree with that, our government is likely to declare just about anything illegal over-night, for no reason at all - like zombie knives.
I think cannon have to be muzzle-loaded, blackpowder, and possibly smoothbore. Non-blackpowder cartridge-fired guns would likely be prohibited.
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by bladeracer » 15 Feb 2019, 12:03 pm

Noisydad wrote:Canon are black powder and 2” bore max. Don’t think anyone could afford to feed anything bigger than anyway.


Do they use more than a couple-hundred grains of black?
I thought it'd still be cheaper than shooting .50BMG :-)
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by Noisydad » 15 Feb 2019, 2:37 pm

One our members uses 1/3 cup of powder (in a foil cartridge) for his light loads.
There's still a few of Wile. E Coyote's ideas that I haven't tried yet.
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by TassieTiger » 15 Feb 2019, 2:47 pm

It’s not directly related but I asked my course instructor about pvc potato canons - and he advised that they by definition meet the criteria as to be considered a firearm and were illegal without the appropriate licence.
Wonder what the licence would be category “spud”...?
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by Rod_outbak » 15 Feb 2019, 3:19 pm

I've been wrestling with a similar issue, when it comes to arming a drone for wild dogs.

How I interpret the weapons act:
Basically, the second you fire or launch something where you assist/enhance it's fall to the ground, it becomes a projectile, and therefore you have a firearm.

I wont be surprised if in the next 5-10 years, we have drones smart enough to identify a dog('on-board') without my help, and that gives us a chance to act upon this sighting.
I have in mind drones fitted with NV and thermal cameras, who prowl along the main creeks each night; looking for heat sources, and identifying them.
If they can identify a dog, what can you do, other than video the dog??

- If we didnt have any sort of restrictions, I'd fit the drone with a semi-auto weapon or shotgun, and get him to nail Wuffy.

- Given the authorities will get quite squirrelly about such, my next thought was something like a dart-gun, but it still requires a weapons licence, and we still have authorities getting fretty about remotely-operated weapons.

- Another thought would be to fire a net using a compressed air charge, but as far as I can interpret the Weapons act, we are still firing a projectile, and therefore still need a licence, and they will STILL have kittens about a remotely operated weapon.

- Next thought would be dropping a net, which MIGHT be allowable, as long as we can show we dont boost the fall of the net in any way.

- Next thought would be to have the drone drop a poison bait in the path of the dog, but given the dog will be aware of the drone, he'd need to be REALLY hungry before he's going to eat the bait. Dropping a bait shouldnt upset the authorities(open hatch), and there are already drones dropping herbicides to control pest weeds, so it shouldnt be too onerous to get necessary accreditations to do this.

- Another random thought would be a freaking biiiig spear on the front of the drone, and get drone to suicide into the dog, but that seems a tad expensive, and probably one where they immediately create NEW regulations banning this sort of action..Also; nigh impossible to nail the dog first go, unless you coat the spear in a poison, which will also get the authorities a bit fretty...

Stay tuned; I'm still thinking this through...

So TassieTiger, I'm kinda not surprised that a Spud cannon would cross the line....
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by JSS » 15 Feb 2019, 7:21 pm

Does this mean i need a permit for our umbrella stand? :wtf: :D

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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by zhuk » 16 Feb 2019, 12:07 am

Noisydad wrote:You can own and live fire canon. They’re registered as a single shot shotty. Seymour Black Powder Club has a (live firing) target event for canon.



Yeah but in VIC you can also shoot a Boys anti tank rifle at Little River lol

Doesn't mean the rest of the country can heh
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by trekin » 16 Feb 2019, 5:42 am

Rod_outbak wrote:- Another thought would be to fire a net using a compressed air charge, but as far as I can interpret the Weapons act, we are still firing a projectile, and therefore still need a licence, and they will STILL have kittens about a remotely operated weapon.

A net gun is neither a firearm nor a weapon as defined under the QLD Act/ Regs.
Rod_outbak wrote:- Another random thought would be a freaking biiiig spear on the front of the drone, and get drone to suicide into the dog, but that seems a tad expensive, and probably one where they immediately create NEW regulations banning this sort of action..Also; nigh impossible to nail the dog first go, unless you coat the spear in a poison, which will also get the authorities a bit fretty...

Although still requiring a Cat A licence, a powerhead should do the job, and still be legal.
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by Daddybang » 16 Feb 2019, 7:22 am

In qld an object must be able to fire a "lethal" projectile (I think that's determined by velocity :unknown: ) to be considered a firearm hence we can have gel blasters. :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by trekin » 16 Feb 2019, 8:26 am

Daddybang wrote:In qld an object must be able to fire a "lethal" projectile (I think that's determined by velocity :unknown: ) to be considered a firearm hence we can have gel blasters. :thumbsup: :drinks:

firearm means—
(a) a gun or other thing ordinarily described as a firearm; or
(b) a thing ordinarily described as a weapon that, if used in
the way for which it was designed or adapted, is capable
of being aimed at a target and causing death or injury by
discharging—
(i) a projectile; or
(ii) noxious, corrosive or irritant liquid, powder, gas,
chemical or other substance; or
(c) a thing that would be a firearm mentioned in paragraph
(a) or (b), if it were not temporarily inoperable or
incomplete; or
(d) a major component part of a firearm;
but does not include—
(e) an antique firearm, explosive tool, captive bolt humane
killer, spear gun, longbow or crossbow; or
(f) a replica of a spear gun, longbow or crossbow; or
(g) a slingshot, shanghai or sword; or
(h) a public monument.
Example—
A replica of a gun capable of causing death or injury by discharging a
projectile is a firearm. However, a replica of a gun not capable of
causing death or injury by discharging a projectile is not a firearm.


Death or injury. But 'injury is very subjective and therefore is not defined in either the Weapons Act or the Criminal Code. It would therefore be up the the police prosecution to charge and/or the judicial system to convict.
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by Rod_outbak » 16 Feb 2019, 4:59 pm

Thanks gents; I didnt get an answer for the original question, but thanks for getting me to re-examine the definition of a firearm.

Yep; looks like a net-gun would avoid being considered a firearm.
That being the case, would a big-arse water-bomb launcher be exempt from being considered a firearm?
I'm guessing you have the same issue of whether anyone deems it likely to cause injury.

Thanks again.
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by bladeracer » 16 Feb 2019, 7:30 pm

trekin wrote:A replica of a gun capable of causing death or injury by discharging a
projectile is a firearm. However, a replica of a gun not capable of
causing death or injury by discharging a projectile is not a firearm.


Does that read as the replica being capable of injury, or being a replica of a real firearm that is capable of of injury?
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by trekin » 17 Feb 2019, 4:24 am

bladeracer wrote:
trekin wrote: However, a replica of a gun not capable of
causing death or injury by discharging a projectile is not a firearm.


Does that read as the replica being capable of injury, or being a replica of a real firearm that is capable of of injury?

Well now, that would come down to punctuation wouldn't it.
"A replica of a gun capable of causing death or injury by discharging a projectile is a firearm." has a totally different meaning, especially in legalese, to "A replica of a gun, capable of causing death or injury by discharging a projectile is a firearm."
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by Daddybang » 17 Feb 2019, 11:46 am

OK so I was interested in the meaning so I looked at a dictionary ( for the youngsters among us that's a magical instrument of knowledge in book format! :o :lol: :sarcasm: ) and Ordnance (not to be confused with Ordinance) is any military equipment including but not limited to weapons ammo vehicles etc.
So it seems( :unknown: ) to be a purely military term. How this works for the original question I have no f@#kin idea but hopefully it is some sort of answer. :lol: :drinks:
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by bladeracer » 17 Feb 2019, 1:20 pm

trekin wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Does that read as the replica being capable of injury, or being a replica of a real firearm that is capable of of injury?


Well now, that would come down to punctuation wouldn't it.
"A replica of a gun capable of causing death or injury by discharging a projectile is a firearm." has a totally different meaning, especially in legalese, to "A replica of a gun, capable of causing death or injury by discharging a projectile is a firearm."


Yep, lack of punctuation is why I asked. I think it means that anything that resembles a real firearm, and fires something that can injure.
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by Rod_outbak » 17 Feb 2019, 1:42 pm

Daddybang,

Many thanks for that; it does help unravel the mystery somewhat.

Now I just need to find out the legalities of owning military equipment, and how it becomes 'ex-mil'
[Obviously there is a process for ordnance to be sold off to the public, but I'm yet to understand the parameters for it]

The two items I've seen in the recent past which started this query, were a couple of (fired) cannon shell cases like JSS's umbrella stand, and a optical rangefind/periscope, which I was told was off a field artillery piece.
It made me wonder how legal such things are to own these days...

Cheers, and thanks to all who have shared their thoughts/knowledge.

Rod.
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by bladeracer » 17 Feb 2019, 1:48 pm

Rod_outbak wrote:Daddybang,

Many thanks for that; it does help unravel the mystery somewhat.

Now I just need to find out the legalities of owning military equipment, and how it becomes 'ex-mil'
[Obviously there is a process for ordnance to be sold off to the public, but I'm yet to understand the parameters for it]

The two items I've seen in the recent past which started this query, were a couple of (fired) cannon shell cases like JSS's umbrella stand, and a optical rangefind/periscope, which I was told was off a field artillery piece.
It made me wonder how legal such things are to own these days...

Cheers, and thanks to all who have shared their thoughts/knowledge.

Rod.


I think empty brass is fine, my difficulty was importing the inert shell.
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Re: Question: What is defined as 'Ordnance'??

Post by trekin » 18 Feb 2019, 7:29 am

bladeracer wrote:
trekin wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Does that read as the replica being capable of injury, or being a replica of a real firearm that is capable of of injury?


Well now, that would come down to punctuation wouldn't it.
"A replica of a gun capable of causing death or injury by discharging a projectile is a firearm." has a totally different meaning, especially in legalese, to "A replica of a gun, capable of causing death or injury by discharging a projectile is a firearm."


Yep, lack of punctuation is why I asked. I think it means that anything that resembles a real firearm, and fires something that can injure.

That can cause death or injury. Yes, that can only be read one way and the Act would have been thoughly proofread by the Gov't legal department and even though this is written as an example, Section 8A makes it part of the Act;

"8A Notes in text
A note in the text of this Act is part of the Act."

Now applying the same punctuation rule the second sentence, "However, a replica of a gun not capable of causing death or injury by discharging a projectile is not a firearm." you can see why gel blasters are still legal up here. It is also why I don't understand how airsoft is not legal up here, apart from the lack of understanding of the Act by those supposedly wanting to get it legalised.
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