Rumour police seized firearms from unlocked cars at range

[Gaznazdiak]

As it stands, they can NOT search a vehicle without just cause, ie a gun in plain sight, if you are stupid enough to leave your firearm unattended in an unlocked vehicle whether at the range or your back paddock, you are probably too stupid to be trusted with one in the first place and have no grounds for complaint.
They are on us like stink on sh!t, we know this, if we ignore it we deserve the inevitable result.

[Sergeant Hartman]

Hmmm interesting the article takes about NSW. Vic laws are different.

I do know in vic that leaving keys in car is illegal. Have a car engineer running and you not in the car is illegal. Being drunk even if not driving is illegal. Having your passenger with a drink in their hands is illegal......

Lol you get the point. It's very likely that having guns in an unlocked vehicle is bad.

[No1_49er]

Agree that anybody at a range is crazy not to have their firearms locked in the vehicle., properly secured and not obvious to a passerby.
But, the stupidity of this law (failing to lock the vehicle, even if there is nothing in it, or in fact leaving the windows a little too far down, even if locked) is that you are not required by similar law to lock your dwelling place when you leave.
Stupid maybe, but not required.
"Go figure" is a saying that comes to mind.

[Gaznazdiak]

Yeah, but there's more of a market for stolen cars than stolen houses though, I would think

[deye243]

No I don't k ow where to find the link but in Vic as soon as you get a firearms licence the cops can search your house without a warrant....... and how do they get around it .....simple they knock on you're door and say we suspect you have an unregistered gun and here is the kicker you have to help them ......

[Blr243]

Rifles in unlocked un occupied cars are rifles that are unsecured and therefore the owner of the firearms is breaking the law. If they are then stolen from an unlocked car by a thief or a police officer doing his job tough s**t. LOCK YOUR VEHICLE

[madang55]

Why on earth would you leave your vehicle UNLOCKED!!! Numb Nuts!!!!!!

[Rod_outbak]

I dont think anyone would argue that leaving your car unlocked in a shooting range car-park, is freaking stupid.
Even MORE stupid, is the idea of leaving firearms in an unlocked car unattended; stupid of epic proportions.

But the methods the police are employing, sound to be violating peoples rights to privacy.

If a private citizen does the same thing; rummages through an unlocked car in a public car-park, and finds incriminating items (drugs etc), what do you reckon would be the chances that evidence is admissible in court?
Pretty freaking low; I expect.
So why do the police get a different set of rules to operate by, compared to Joe Public?
I read the original article, and even in a public street, I struggle with the justification/need for the police to search the vehicle.
NO idea how searching an unlocked car can be justified, when the search has no basis for actually preventing crime.
Even more worrying, is when the police start doing it, on what is effectively private land (range car-park).

THAT, is my concern about this story.
From my perspective, this is the police justifying being a law unto themselves.
I'm going to discuss this with my local copper, and seek his thoughts...

[madang55]

I cannot agree more and will be discussing it tonight with our Safety Course team.

[TassieTiger]

When I joined our local clay club, I’d take a couple boxes with me to shoot, lock the car and then return when I was empty.
Some of the older members weee laughing at me locking the car - some have me a decent ribbing over it...but I continued to lock it.

The firearms testing facility is held at the same place, so I asked the tester wtf - he said it was a public place, anyone can drive into the car park, so lock the vehicle or face potential consequences - some of the older guys were being just so complacent.

[trekin]

When I joined our local clay club, I’d take a couple boxes with me to shoot, lock the car and then return when I was empty.
Some of the older members weee laughing at me locking the car - some have me a decent ribbing over it...but I continued to lock it.

The firearms testing facility is held at the same place, so I asked the tester wtf - he said it was a public place, anyone can drive into the car park, so lock the vehicle or face potential consequences - some of the older guys were being just so complacent.

As this seems to only occur at "another range", and I personaly don't know anyone who has been pinged for this, one has to wonder if this is not a tactic used by the clubs to scare the complacency out of the likes of these people.

[zhuk]

I've heard a gun lic comes up when they search our car rego.

Indeed. And more than rego, we are all logged on the Crimtrak database which is accessible in every police car. I was questioned outside my place once when I was putting out the garbage (cops said they thought I was "acting suspiciously", and hey it was Redfern so I don't particularly blame them lol)

They looked up my name and bingo firearm licence holder came up on the track system.

[zhuk]

I dont think anyone would argue that leaving your car unlocked in a shooting range car-park, is freaking stupid.
Even MORE stupid, is the idea of leaving firearms in an unlocked car unattended; stupid of epic proportions.

But the methods the police are employing, sound to be violating peoples rights to privacy.

If a private citizen does the same thing; rummages through an unlocked car in a public car-park, and finds incriminating items (drugs etc), what do you reckon would be the chances that evidence is admissible in court?
Pretty freaking low; I expect.
So why do the police get a different set of rules to operate by, compared to Joe Public?
I read the original article, and even in a public street, I struggle with the justification/need for the police to search the vehicle.
NO idea how searching an unlocked car can be justified, when the search has no basis for actually preventing crime.
Even more worrying, is when the police start doing it, on what is effectively private land (range car-park).

THAT, is my concern about this story.
From my perspective, this is the police justifying being a law unto themselves.
I'm going to discuss this with my local copper, and seek his thoughts...

If we bring more than one gun to my pistol club, you cannot leave it unattended in a LOCKED car, but must leave it with the duty officer (having more than one gun on the range at a time is strictly verboten)

[bladeracer]

If we bring more than one gun to my pistol club, you cannot leave it unattended in a LOCKED car, but must leave it with the duty officer (having more than one gun on the range at a time is strictly verboten)

So what would I do if I came with 35 rifles?

[Bruiser64]

This SSAA article is interesting. https://ssaa.org.au/news-resources/fire ... h-firearms

As is this article in Sporting Shooter. http://www.sportingshooter.com.au/gun-l ... ose-cannon

The key points in the articles are that Police in each jurisdiction have been give wide powers when it comes to firearms. Also all license holders must adequately secure their guns. As law abiding firearms owners we all need to make sure we comply with the laws of the state or territory we are in with our guns. The first step with complying with the law is establishing what the laws are. We can all argue about whether the police have the power to check unlocked cars or not. But at the end of the day if you have inadequately stored your guns, you have no one else to blame for your legal difficulty.

This might be an unpopular view, but I can’t blame a police force for doing this. The criminally inclined seeking guns are going to target the places where they know the guns are. I think a gun club is a pretty obvious target for a crim. What is at all unreasonable about the police targeting a high risk area to ensure compliance with the law? Especially when they get a positive reinforcement that their concerns about a lackadaisical attitude to security are well founded?

[Gaznazdiak]

If we bring more than one gun to my pistol club, you cannot leave it unattended in a LOCKED car, but must leave it with the duty officer (having more than one gun on the range at a time is strictly verboten)

So what would I do if I came with 35 rifles?

Buy an old Armaguard armoured money truck

[pomemax]

f we bring more than one gun to my pistol club, you cannot leave it unattended in a LOCKED car, but must leave it with the duty officer (having more than one gun on the range at a time is strictly verboten)
When i go to the range my Range trolley has at least 3 rifles and a my pistol box may have up to 5 pistols, where in NSW approx is this range so i do not go there.

[Archie]

f we bring more than one gun to my pistol club, you cannot leave it unattended in a LOCKED car, but must leave it with the duty officer (having more than one gun on the range at a time is strictly verboten)
When i go to the range my Range trolley has at least 3 rifles and a my pistol box may have up to 5 pistols, where in NSW approx is this range so i do not go there.

For what it's worth, if you go to Silverwater SSAA range (or at least it used to be that way, I haven't been to that range in a year or more, good people but single shot benchrest bores me stupid....) you can't take your rifle from your car until you've signed in. That means you have to leave them in your car while you sign in, and only then do you go get it. And they're pretty strict about it too. Had a couple of mates get a bollocking for walking in with their guns in gunbags on their way to sign in.

[bladeracer]

This SSAA article is interesting. https://ssaa.org.au/news-resources/fire ... h-firearms

As is this article in Sporting Shooter. http://www.sportingshooter.com.au/gun-l ... ose-cannon

The key points in the articles are that Police in each jurisdiction have been give wide powers when it comes to firearms. Also all license holders must adequately secure their guns. As law abiding firearms owners we all need to make sure we comply with the laws of the state or territory we are in with our guns. The first step with complying with the law is establishing what the laws are. We can all argue about whether the police have the power to check unlocked cars or not. But at the end of the day if you have inadequately stored your guns, you have no one else to blame for your legal difficulty.

This might be an unpopular view, but I can’t blame a police force for doing this. The criminally inclined seeking guns are going to target the places where they know the guns are. I think a gun club is a pretty obvious target for a crim. What is at all unreasonable about the police targeting a high risk area to ensure compliance with the law? Especially when they get a positive reinforcement that their concerns about a lackadaisical attitude to security are well founded?

I don't think anybody is disputing the results, and that anybody doing should have the book thrown at them. But I do not for one second believe their doing this prevents any crime or protects anybody from violence. While they're burning up hours doing this they could be out investigating actual criminal activity.

But I have a serious concern that Police are becoming immune to our laws.
How far are we from having them driving around the suburbs checking that houses are locked up, and stealing anything they find that might constitute a crime?

[Gaznazdiak]

f we bring more than one gun to my pistol club, you cannot leave it unattended in a LOCKED car, but must leave it with the duty officer (having more than one gun on the range at a time is strictly verboten)
When i go to the range my Range trolley has at least 3 rifles and a my pistol box may have up to 5 pistols, where in NSW approx is this range so i do not go there.

For what it's worth, if you go to Silverwater SSAA range (or at least it used to be that way, I haven't been to that range in a year or more, good people but single shot benchrest bores me stupid....) you can't take your rifle from your car until you've signed in. That means you have to leave them in your car while you sign in, and only then do you go get it. And they're pretty strict about it too. Had a couple of mates get a bollocking for walking in with their guns in gunbags on their way to sign in.

Similar situation at Goulburn range, it's a fair drive from home but it's the closest.
I went a couple of times before it was closed, and with the idea of security in mind, carried my rifle with the bolt and magazine removed, slung on my shoulder muzzle down when waiting my turn.
The president actually told me to just put it on the ground or leave it in the car as "some of the members objected" to my keeping it with me.

When I said I thought I was doing the right thing by not leaving it unattended, he scoffed at that idea as though I'd suggested I hold the bloody targets for them to shoot at.

They weren't all that way but there are some truly special people in the Goulburn target shooting community. I gave up the idea of pistol shooting because that club has some fvcking purlers, and several people I know who have enquired about joining were put off by the insular hostility towards newcomers.

[Patriot]

This SSAA article is interesting. https://ssaa.org.au/news-resources/fire ... h-firearms

As is this article in Sporting Shooter. http://www.sportingshooter.com.au/gun-l ... ose-cannon

The key points in the articles are that Police in each jurisdiction have been give wide powers when it comes to firearms. Also all license holders must adequately secure their guns. As law abiding firearms owners we all need to make sure we comply with the laws of the state or territory we are in with our guns. The first step with complying with the law is establishing what the laws are. We can all argue about whether the police have the power to check unlocked cars or not. But at the end of the day if you have inadequately stored your guns, you have no one else to blame for your legal difficulty.

This might be an unpopular view, but I can’t blame a police force for doing this. The criminally inclined seeking guns are going to target the places where they know the guns are. I think a gun club is a pretty obvious target for a crim. What is at all unreasonable about the police targeting a high risk area to ensure compliance with the law? Especially when they get a positive reinforcement that their concerns about a lackadaisical attitude to security are well founded?

I don't think anybody is disputing the results, and that anybody doing should have the book thrown at them. But I do not for one second believe their doing this prevents any crime or protects anybody from violence. While they're burning up hours doing this they could be out investigating actual criminal activity.

But I have a serious concern that Police are becoming immune to our laws.
How far are we from having them driving around the suburbs checking that houses are locked up, and stealing anything they find that might constitute a crime?

Police are becoming immune because citizens have allowed it.
Australians have a very poor attitude when comes holding governments to account we are complicit in our own fall into tyranny.

[Daddybang]

I think people would be very unpleasantly surprised if they took the time to read the police powers and responsibilities act for the different states regarding the searches section.

[marksman]

I have not been to little river, eagle park ssaa range for a couple of years now but when I did frequent that range this rumour was one of the made up rumour's that came up all the time, spread by the RO's created by the little river little d!ck chief range officer

can anyone say that they have been at a range anywhere in Australia and witnessed the police doing a carpark check

I do believe that you should lock up your firearms and ammo when being stored but don't believe this story to be fact

eagle park range need to get there security in order eg... secure the range so you have to sign in before you can enter the range
and stop these silly rumours

[Bruiser64]

I have not been to little river, eagle park ssaa range for a couple of years now but when I did frequent that range this rumour was one of the made up rumour's that came up all the time, spread by the RO's created by the little river little d!ck chief range officer

can anyone say that they have been at a range anywhere in Australia and witnessed the police doing a carpark check

I do believe that you should lock up your firearms and ammo when being stored but don't believe this story to be fact

eagle park range need to get there security in order eg... secure the range so you have to sign in before you can enter the range
and stop these silly rumours

I was wondering if anyone has actually experienced what this thread is about? I has a quick search on the NSW Police website and there are no press releases about searches at rifle ranges revealing widespread problems with unsecured firearms. If this event happened l have no doubt the police would publicise it.

The interesting thing about this discussion is people’s perceptions about the police not obeying the law. This link is very interesting to me. https://www.turnbullhill.com.au/article ... your-home/

Basically if the police suspect on reasonable grounds that there is something dangerous in a car, they have the RIGHT to search it. This right is given to them by the NSW Parliament. Just because a person doesn’t like them having that right doesn’t prevent the right existing.

You would be hard pressed to argue that an unsecured firearm wasn’t a dangerous item. The facts are that if I don’t meet my obligations to adequately secure my firearm, I am committing an offence. This means I am engaged in offending behaviour. This means I am an offender. The police have done their job to detect my offending and bring me to justice. Doesn’t sound too flash does it?

[zhuk]

If we bring more than one gun to my pistol club, you cannot leave it unattended in a LOCKED car, but must leave it with the duty officer (having more than one gun on the range at a time is strictly verboten)

So what would I do if I came with 35 rifles?

Well it's a pistol club so that's unlikely heh

But at my rifle club we park on the actual range just behind the mound/firing line, and no matter that we would see anyone else appearing from a mile off, regardless of how many rifles all cars are locked at all times.

[Bruiser64]

If we bring more than one gun to my pistol club, you cannot leave it unattended in a LOCKED car, but must leave it with the duty officer (having more than one gun on the range at a time is strictly verboten)

So what would I do if I came with 35 rifles?

Well it's a pistol club so that's unlikely heh

But at my rifle club we park on the actual range just behind the mound/firing line, and no matter that we would see anyone else appearing from a mile off, regardless of how many rifles all cars are locked at all times.

To me that sounds like you are a member of clubs that take their responsibilities seriously and the members hold each other to account. I would be very surprised if the overwhelming majority of clubs weren’t the same. Which is why I doubt that the police have conducted this operation. It wouldn’t achieve much. Here in WA they did an operation to check that gun owners were storing their firearms correctly. The police concluded that yes, they do.

[zhuk]

If we bring more than one gun to my pistol club, you cannot leave it unattended in a LOCKED car, but must leave it with the duty officer (having more than one gun on the range at a time is strictly verboten)

So what would I do if I came with 35 rifles?

Well it's a pistol club so that's unlikely heh

But at my rifle club we park on the actual range just behind the mound/firing line, and no matter that we would see anyone else appearing from a mile off, regardless of how many rifles all cars are locked at all times.

To me that sounds like you are a member of clubs that take their responsibilities seriously and the members hold each other to account. I would be very surprised if the overwhelming majority of clubs weren’t the same. Which is why I doubt that the police have conducted this operation. It wouldn’t achieve much. Here in WA they did an operation to check that gun owners were storing their firearms correctly. The police concluded that yes, they do.

Well FAR in NSW has been closing or attempting to close so many ranges in recent years that in general clubs are pretty adamant about being stickers for safe storage rules. And I have heard from club committee members that plain clothes officers patrolling shooters' cars is or has indeed been a thing here