Licence Suspended & Nobody Told Me!

Questions about Victorian gun and ammunition laws. Victorian Firearms Act 1996.

Licence Suspended & Nobody Told Me!

Post by burnthelies » 23 Aug 2013, 8:43 pm

Well here you go guys, here is a lesson in the police state that is Australia's gun laws. Long story short i'm from NSW but now live in Melbourne - never had a gun licence up there because i was in the military.

Now i jump through all the hoops to get a licence in Victoria; this included submitting my safety course form twice, and still never hearing anything, eventually got the firearms officer on the phone after no s**t - 20 phone calls - and was able to get booked in over the phone (i submitted my first form in November and didn't get to do my safety course until May the following year).

All went to plan, i submitted all my paperwork, paid my feeds, had my photo taken and after submitting my Permit To Acquire and waiting the predetermined length of time bought my first rifle (an air rifle for practice) followed closely by a .308 for use at the range and hunting. A couple of years go by and i decide i want to buy a dedicated range rifle so at the SHOT Expo held in Melbourne this year i go and have a chat to all the manufacturers reps and having always wanted a Remington 700 i settle on a model with a tactical stock.

Thanks to the fact that Victoria Police had a stand at the show i am able to fill in a PTA application and give it to them for processing - i expect it to be a few days before it comes back but nonetheless i go and stick a deposit on my desired rifle at my local gun store. A week goes by and nothing happens, i give it a few more days and then call up Licensing & Regulation Division to find out the problem.

The woman can't wait to get me off the phone and her response is 'it's being processed' with no additional info.

A few more weeks go by and still nothing so after 28 days i call them again (knowing even if somebody was getting their first firearm then they should receive the PTA by then) and once again am told its being reviewed. I ask whether being reviewed is different to being processed? Again, they can't tell me anything else.

More time elapses and i figure what the hell, i'll get the gun store to do it via their online dealer system, which they do. After a few days, knowing it should have taken 24 hours, i call the gun store and they don't understand why it hasn't come back. We leave it alone and a week later i call them up and ask them to check if it has been approved; they can't even find it in their dealer account.

I call the police back again and explain the situation, they tell me yes they can see both the applications in the system and they are both being processed but can't give me anymore information. I ask whether they can cancel the paper application i did as it is a double up which they do.

More time goes by and still no response, i call them again and explain it has now been a number of months and i have not heard anything. They say they have no information other than it has 'been passed up the line and will be reviewed by a member'. But they can't tell me how long it will take.

I say 'Can you just cancel it then?' and am asked 'Why do you want to cancel it?' I explain that my layby is only valid for 3 months and at this rate will be void by the time you guys get your act together. I explain i already have a rifle so stuff it i'll just keep using the one i have. The woman explains that no sorry she can't cancel it - then how did you cancel the double up i had i ask? No real answer.

I ask if there is a manager or someone higher up the chain that i can talk to. She puts me on hold for a period of time then comes back and says 'No'.

Eventually i go back into the gun store and talk to them, explain all this stuff and they then start going through old business cards calling direct phone numbers. I explain to them that i work for a Defence contractor (requires me to have Defence clearance) and that my employer is also a firearms dealer (requires me to have my fingerprints on file with Victoria Police among other things). Apparently that doesn't matter....

According to the gun store you can be all those things and still not be a 'fit and proper person' to own your own firearms (so you're saying i can work in a gun store around hundreds of guns and ammunition but i can't have my own? Makes sense)

Eventually after a number of phone calls we get a hold of somebody who can actually give me some information and i am astonished at what i hear;

1. Your licence is suspended
2. It has been suspended since October, 2012 (this is July, 2013)
3. It has been suspended because Victoria Police received information that you may be a threat to yourself or others

Huh? I have assault rifles at work in our gun safe, i have firearms at home, i'm ex-special forces military and you think i'm a risk? Ok.....

The cop tells me to expect a letter in the mail - which never comes. Eventually i get a phone call from the local firearms officer asking to talk to me so as a precaution i put my rifle in storage so he can't confiscate it. After 5 attempts to call him back i eventually get a hold of him, he says i need to come and surrender my rifles and my licence, which i promptly do. I explain my 308 is in storage already and give him the receipt from the gun store as proof. He then give me a letter, takes my other rifle and licence off me and explains what i have to do;

1. Get a letter from your GP stating you are not a threat
2. Provide a statement of your own as to why you're not a threat

They give me 28 days from the date of the letter to get back to them otherwise my licence is cancelled.

So i do all that, my GP is as confused as me ("How can i make a statement that you are not a threat to yourself or others? You could have a psychotic break tomorrow and go and hurt somebody") - i completely agree with her but she reluctantly puts together a paragraph totaling about 20 words. In my letter i detail my military service, my lack of psychological problems, my stable life etc as i have no idea what they expect me to write.

It is now past the cut off date for my time to respond and haven't heard anything (that's a surprise) however will be giving them a call next week to find out what's going on and i'm sure i'll receive a response similar to "It's being processed" or "It's currently under review" but what can you do?

Apparently if i don't like somebody i could ring up the police and say 'Bob's threatening to kill himself and he has firearms' and that's enough to justify suspending his licence (without telling him). Lucky for me they only took roughly 10 months to take my guns off me... otherwise i might have hurt myself or others.

But just think of the ramifications if i had been found out in a state forest hunting with friends as i frequently am - does anybody seriously believe that if a police officer, ranger or whoever has access to check a licence who checks mine is going to believe that i didn't know my licence was suspended? So he takes my rifle, ammo, gear, whatever else he can lay claim too and maybe even my buddies gear if he feels like it.

There is a lot more to ponder here however i think i have chewed everyone's ears enough... questions, feel free to ask, and i'll update this as things go along.
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Re: Licence Suspended & Nobody Told Me!

Post by Norton » 24 Aug 2013, 5:54 pm

Another example of our firearm registries hard at work.

Suspended for 9 months and not told...
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Re: Licence Suspended & Nobody Told Me!

Post by sneaker » 24 Aug 2013, 6:00 pm

burnthelies wrote:But just think of the ramifications if i had been found out in a state forest hunting with friends as i frequently am - does anybody seriously believe that if a police officer, ranger or whoever has access to check a licence who checks mine is going to believe that i didn't know my licence was suspended? So he takes my rifle, ammo, gear, whatever else he can lay claim too and maybe even my buddies gear if he feels like it.


Yeah, no kidding.

Some of the stories you hear from peoples dealings with rangers... good luck convincing them you thought your license was in order.
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Re: Licence Suspended & Nobody Told Me!

Post by Vati » 24 Aug 2013, 6:02 pm

Typical police state bulls**t.

Shooter punished at the drop of a hat with no proof, then the burden is on you to jump through the hoops to get your license back.

GG.
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Re: Licence Suspended & Nobody Told Me!

Post by John445 » 24 Aug 2013, 6:11 pm

burnthelies wrote:So i do all that, my GP is as confused as me ("How can i make a statement that you are not a threat to yourself or others? You could have a psychotic break tomorrow and go and hurt somebody") - i completely agree with her but she reluctantly puts together a paragraph totaling about 20 words. In my letter i detail my military service, my lack of psychological problems, my stable life etc as i have no idea what they expect me to write.


I imagine plenty of GP's wouldn't been keen/willing to write such a letter for shooters... What are you supposed to do if you don't have a family GP and just go to random bulk billing doctors?

You're supposed to get some random doctor who's never met you give you a full psych work-up or what? Yet they suspend your license at the drop of a hat...

So much for the burden of proof being on your accuser.
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Re: Licence Suspended & Nobody Told Me!

Post by Lorgar » 24 Aug 2013, 6:28 pm

burnthelies wrote:...eventually got the firearms officer on the phone after no s**t - 20 phone calls...


Back when I was getting my license, I sent off the paperwork for the safety course and never heard back.

Called twice a week for - I think it was - 5-6 weeks before finally getting through to the guy who told me that my course was in 2 days...
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Re: Licence Suspended & Nobody Told Me!

Post by burnthelies » 24 Aug 2013, 6:36 pm

All sounds fairly typical... the stupid thing on that is they run them more often in regional areas apparently (although i question this based on population statistics) but you aren't allowed to go to one in another area, you have to go to the one closest to where you live.

They also say in Victoria 'you cannot be booked in over the phone, you must submit the form' yet after putting my form in twice it was the phone call that got me booked in?
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Re: Licence Suspended & Nobody Told Me!

Post by Hatter » 26 Aug 2013, 2:36 pm

Man, that's messed up :(

Lucky you applied for the rifle and found your license had been suspended before anyone came knocking to confiscate it or you were caught out and about with it.

Presumably they'd just say you were sent a letter and that's the end of it, obviously you wouldn't be able to prove it never came :(
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Re: Licence Suspended & Nobody Told Me!

Post by Hadoku » 26 Aug 2013, 3:23 pm

Hatter wrote:Presumably they'd just say you were sent a letter and that's the end of it, obviously you wouldn't be able to prove it never came :(


Burden of proof would probably be on you too, making the situation impossible :(
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Re: Licence Suspended & Nobody Told Me!

Post by Aster » 26 Aug 2013, 3:56 pm

burnthelies wrote: I explain my 308 is in storage already and give him the receipt from the gun store as proof.


Wise move. I've seen a couple of rifles come back from storage with the Police which looked like they'd been stored in a tumble dryer for a month.

You local gun dealer's likely to treat them with more respect.
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Re: Licence Suspended & Nobody Told Me!

Post by burnthelies » 10 Sep 2013, 6:40 pm

Well many weeks later i finally get another letter in the mail... having called them during the preceding weeks only to be told that that department is 'real busy' so they will get to it when they can (yeah no s**t, sure they are real busy...).

So what's the news? They are not satisfied that i am a fit and proper person based on the information i have provided and have asked me to provide more information, including a letter from my GP stating why she considers me to be a fit and proper person... say what??!! Isn't that what i already gave you? I don't understand this bulls**t, what else am i meant to say other than what i've already said? It's not like i was holding back with my first submission! I said everything relevant - i wasn't aware i would get the chance to do a second submission if they were not happy with the first....

So looks like i'm going back to my GP... problem now is my GP's clinic is closed for the entire month of September for major renovations, and i have to have my next submission to them by the 1st of October... brilliant! WTF do i do now?? My family GP that i had growing up passed away and this is the only other GP i have ever been too and have only been going to them for around 3 years now
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Re: Licence Suspended & Nobody Told Me!

Post by Norton » 11 Sep 2013, 8:56 am

Get on the phone and start hassling them I reckon. Sounds like they're just giving you the run around...

If you've sent the letter from the GP already they shouldn't be able to take your license unless you let it go.
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Re: Licence Suspended & Nobody Told Me!

Post by Vati » 11 Sep 2013, 11:42 am

Sounds like some anti at the registry who doesn't want you to have a license...

Stay on it too I reckon.
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Re: Licence Suspended & Nobody Told Me!

Post by secretsquirrel » 15 Oct 2013, 2:51 pm

Mate,
Do what i do, go see your local elected member. Public servants don't like being hassled by the staff of elected members of parliament. Had an issue trying to surrender a rifle that i had stripped, the police wouldn't take just the barrel with the serial number, wanted everything, Stock, bolt, magazine, trigger. I pointed out that they were spares for another rifle. The dispute was settled by a letter from my state member of parliament. A dispute with the Office of State Revenue was also settled very quickly when the recalcitrant public servant received a phone call from my locally elected member.
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Re: Licence Suspended & Nobody Told Me!

Post by Chickenhawk » 15 Oct 2013, 3:04 pm

Where you surrendering it as part of a license suspension/cancellation?

Or just getting rid of it after you'd stripped the parts?
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Re: Licence Suspended & Nobody Told Me!

Post by oohsam » 15 Oct 2013, 4:19 pm

As much as I'd love to believe this entire story, something doesn't smell right.

The vic firearms office are amazing to deal with. I've dealt with them many many times over the phone and in person, and they have been brilliant and always going out of their way to assist. So I find your story a little odd.
A few friends of mine, have also dealt with them and always been great.

I also find it odd, that you say your initial doctors letter was not accepted.

When I moved house twice, and emailed the office, I had a confirmation email within a few hours, and a phone call within a few hours of that to book in a safe check.
They came with all the paperwork of my licence and registered firearms etc. Very polite and organised every time.

I cant say that any experiences I've heard of are anything similar to yours. All you Victorians should know how good it is here in Victoria with the way we are dealt with and treated, and compared to other states, we've got it made.
Also, having a firearm licence is a privilege, not a right. From what I see, you've done nothing but make a few phonecalls.
If all you say is true, which I heavily doubt, because if that was me I'd be at the firearms office first thing in the morning waiting to speak to someone about what has happened.
I sure as heck wouldn't be sitting on my hands for 3 months just making phone call after phone call.

But you need to ask yourself.
1. Do you have any medical conditions that could impact owning a firearm
2. Have you had a history of violence or been charged with a crime recently
3. Did you have a bad break up with an ex that sought a restraining order

Plus many other questions that could possibly have affected your ability to hold a firearm licence.
I know for a fact if i went to my doctor tomorrow she'd have no quams drafting a letter stating that I am fit to hold a firearm. Its not illegal and if your doctor is hesitant then there is more than meets the eye.

Thats my 2c.
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Re: Licence Suspended & Nobody Told Me!

Post by Monty » 15 Oct 2013, 8:36 pm

I think this topic has run it's course, and we'll leave it at that.

Best that burnthelies handle the issue direct with VIC's licensing and regulation division from here I think.

Locking thread.
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