Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Questions about Queensland gun and ammunition laws. QLD Weapons Act 1990.

Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by bear foot bowhunter » 29 Nov 2015, 10:39 pm

"Police forces across the nation stand to be granted extraordinary powers to tackle gun crime, ­including the ability to search suspects without a court warrant, amid rising concerns over the links between organised crime and terrorism,” theaustralian.com.au reports. “Other states and territories are now considering or drafting laws comparable to those introduced in NSW allowing officers to search anyone subject to an existing firearms prohibition order without obtaining a court warrant.” A quick note about “firearms prohibition orders” from a New South Wales Ombudsman report on their use . . .

Since 1973, the [New South Wales] Commissioner of Police has had the power to make an FPO against any person who, in his or her opinion, is not to, in the public interest, possess firearms (the FPO subject). The effect of an FPO is to prohibit a person from possessing or using a firearm and to prohibit others from selling or giving a firearm to the FPO subject.

The Commissioner of Police in NSW – the Australian state that recently made it a crime to keep or transmit electronic blueprints for 3D printed guns – has the personal power to prohibit any citizen from keeping or bearing arms, without any judicial oversight. That couldn’t happen here, could it?

Back in 2011, Republican Peter King of New York introduced the Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act. Under the Act’s powers, the Attorney General can ban anyone on an administration “terrorist watch list” from possessing a firearm. Specifically, anyone . . .

known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support thereof, and the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the prospective transferee may use a firearm in connection with terrorism.

King’s bill – which the Dems have resurrected – frees the government from any obligation to provide the courts with information on their suspicions should someone “inappropriately suspected” of terrorism sue Uncle Sam to restore their natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms.

Back in the Land Down Under, the theaustralian.com.au reports that “More than 1000 people, houses and cars have been searched for guns or gun parts since the NSW laws came into effect in November 2013, with the majority of those people targeted by police linked to organized crime.” How reassuring is that? How reassuring is this:

Australia is widely seen as having some of the most comprehensive gun laws of any country, although the most recent estimate by the Australian Crime Commission suggests there are more than 250,000 rifles and 10,000 handguns on the illicit market nationwide.

Bottom line: despite the President’s post-Umpqua Community College spree killing enthusiasm for Australian gun confiscation/gun control laws, they don’t work. Unless your goal is to establish a police state. And then they work a treat, mate.


http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/1 ... -for-guns/
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Re: Check this out

Post by on_one_wheel » 29 Nov 2015, 11:14 pm

I guess law enforcement doesn't always have the privilege of time on their side when they get a tipoff, personally I think that they need to work on processing and delivering warrants more efficiently rather than just doing away with them all together when it suits their immediate needs.

This is not a new one ( 2013) but we've had a few laws passed lately that are "OK" provided they're only used for the intentions in which they were created. I don't think I can trust each and every representative of law and government for the rest of time with laws designed to catch the few.

Don't forget that as licenced firearms owners we have already agreed to a warrantless " inspection " without notice of our firearms storage, but I don't think that they can turn your house upside down in the process.

I like the last bit " Bottom line: despite the President’s post-Umpqua Community College spree killing enthusiasm for Australian gun confiscation/gun control laws, they don’t work. Unless your goal is to establish a police state. And then they work a treat, mate."
And I especially like some of the comments under the article. ... one bloke wants to airdrop us bulk guns in order to liberat us :drinks:
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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by Hatter » 01 Dec 2015, 1:40 pm

Unless your goal is to establish a police state. And then they work a treat, mate.


Yup :(
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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by Heckler303 » 01 Dec 2015, 3:28 pm

Ehh


When did state police become police state?
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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by happyhunter » 01 Dec 2015, 3:49 pm

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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by Heckler303 » 01 Dec 2015, 3:57 pm

happyhunter wrote:
Heckler303 wrote:Ehh


When did state police become police state?

Around late september 2001.




Ban assault airliners
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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by happyhunter » 01 Dec 2015, 4:05 pm

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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by Heckler303 » 01 Dec 2015, 4:07 pm

happyhunter wrote:
Heckler303 wrote:
happyhunter wrote:
Heckler303 wrote:Ehh


When did state police become police state?

Around late september 2001.




Ban assault airliners


Australia is well down the slippery slope of being a police state. Who needs government when the police make the policy?



David Leyonhjelm said something about that I remember.
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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by happyhunter » 01 Dec 2015, 4:21 pm

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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by adam » 01 Dec 2015, 4:59 pm

Two steps back... Am I understanding this correctly.

These warrantless searches are for anyone subject to a firearms prohibition order (FPO). We're talking about people previously found guilty of offenses involving firearms, or are considered a terrorist threat - not LFO's. (You can't be a LFO with a PFO)...

As LFO's we're obliged to allow police into our house to allow inspection of firearms without a warrant yes - but if the timing is inconvenient we can tell them to come back later.

These changes as I understand it aren't for LFO's - they're for criminals. If so - I'm finding it a breath of fresh air... some changes targeting real criminals (People with firearm Prohibition Orders) - and not LFO's.

I admit, warrantless searches do concern me somewhat, but I do understand that in some instances of urgency it could be valid. What would be good is that after each time this is used, a report is submitted to validate and confirm it's necessity - and to make police accountable for when they do use it, as opposed to a free for all and so us as the public can also know whether it's bearing good results or not.

Far better than the 'um ahh... not sure... best to wait' approach that VicPol currently have as to whether or not to pursue thieves that have just stolen a gun safe...
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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by happyhunter » 01 Dec 2015, 5:17 pm

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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by Baronvonrort » 03 Dec 2015, 12:21 pm

adam wrote:Two steps back... Am I understanding this correctly.

These warrantless searches are for anyone subject to a firearms prohibition order (FPO). We're talking about people previously found guilty of offenses involving firearms, or are considered a terrorist threat - not LFO's. (You can't be a LFO with a PFO)...



You don't need a firearms offence to be subjected to a FPO, the police can issue them on anyone they dislike.

The Police raided a house yesterday in relation to the Parramatta shooting, the FPO was used to justify this raid.
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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by Title_II » 03 Dec 2015, 1:07 pm

happyhunter wrote:
Heckler303 wrote:Ehh


When did state police become police state?

Around late september 2001.


Same here. :(
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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by headspace » 04 Dec 2015, 9:15 pm

I went down and had a chat to my local Police, and asked point blank if they would turn up unannounced. The answer was "we have better things to do than make a special trip to your house guessing that you may or may not be at home. We are obliged to call first and if it is convenient we will come over." There is none of this business of "banging on your door at 9.00 in the morning" The less Copper bashing done on Forums like this the better our public image appears, both to the Police and general public. I believe the Police do a great job, and putting unwarranted (no pun intended) crap on them is immature and counter productive. Basically, If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear. I have not had an inspection in 2 years, so much for that Police State crap!
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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by Chronos » 04 Dec 2015, 9:47 pm

headspace wrote:I went down and had a chat to my local Police, and asked point blank if they would turn up unannounced. The answer was "we have better things to do than make a special trip to your house guessing that you may or may not be at home. We are obliged to call first and if it is convenient we will come over." There is none of this business of "banging on your door at 9.00 in the morning" The less Copper bashing done on Forums like this the better our public image appears, both to the Police and general public. I believe the Police do a great job, and putting unwarranted (no pun intended) crap on them is immature and counter productive. Basically, If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear. I have not had an inspection in 2 years, so much for that Police State crap!


Never let the fa ts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory :allegedly:

The same fear mongering gets used to by both sides in any political argument.

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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by happyhunter » 05 Dec 2015, 10:10 am

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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 05 Dec 2015, 2:46 pm

Chronos wrote:
headspace wrote:I went down and had a chat to my local Police, and asked point blank if they would turn up unannounced. The answer was "we have better things to do than make a special trip to your house guessing that you may or may not be at home. We are obliged to call first and if it is convenient we will come over." There is none of this business of "banging on your door at 9.00 in the morning" The less Copper bashing done on Forums like this the better our public image appears, both to the Police and general public. I believe the Police do a great job, and putting unwarranted (no pun intended) crap on them is immature and counter productive. Basically, If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear. I have not had an inspection in 2 years, so much for that Police State crap!


Never let the fa ts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory :allegedly:

The same fear mongering gets used to by both sides in any political argument.

Chronos



So which side are you guys batting on??
Conspiracy yes, unfortunately we no longer understand what a group working together to achieve a result means....

The last 'inspection' I endured commence with a phone call at, as I recall 6pm announcing that they (a couple of officers) were "in the area" (mind you the cop shop is about a kay away from my front door!) and were seeking to inspect my safe keeping.....

The inspection was not welcomed at that time, it was not convenient, and was undertaken as I recall the next day...... I question why, and was told it was a directive from above to conduct a number of inspections..... whether that still holds today, I dont know as it was perhaps 5 or 7 yrs ago.....
They did spend at least 20minutes 'inspecting', recording, checking.....and still had paper work not according with the firearms in the safe...... they took so long I even, tongue in cheek asked if I could get them a cup of tea...thats how long they took.....

As far as warrantless searches, as usual, the law abiding owners have relinquished certin rights sucha s inspection etc, that the crims never did, so this law just means the crims are catching up to us :P
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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by headspace » 05 Dec 2015, 9:11 pm

I've got no doubt that there are more than a few examples of over zealous Coppers in any line of enquiry. I've also got no doubt that getting lost in a State Forest is not had to do in the day, let alone at night. However by and large the law says the inspection must take place (at least it does in NSW) at a time that is mutually satisfactory. If they want to come by unannounced and you're not at home they've not only acted outside the letter of the law, they've also wasted their time.
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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by happyhunter » 06 Dec 2015, 1:36 pm

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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 06 Dec 2015, 3:22 pm

In VIC there is no reasonable notice provision, its reasonable 'time'.... and there are two provisions that cover the inspection - the actual firearms and the storage arrangements. Strictly speaking, if they're inspecting the storage then its the safe, but in my experience they check both.

Firearms Act 1996:

Producing firearms

120 Offence not to produce firearm for inspection (1) A person in whose name a firearm is registered must produce the firearm for inspection at any reasonable time and at any reasonably convenient place when so requested by a member of the police force.
Penalty: 60 penalty units or 12 months imprisonment.

Inspecting storage

SCHEDULE 1 - GENERAL CONDITIONS FOR LICENCES UNDER PART 2
1 The holder of the licence must permit a member of the police force to inspect the holder's storage arrangements at any reasonable time.
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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by headspace » 06 Dec 2015, 8:00 pm

Genesis, you seem a bit angry mate. You talk about "harp the bulls--t some Police person says" . I can only report on my own experiences with the Police and it's always been positive. You're making sweeping statements about the Police making life difficult, and then accuse Chronos and I of being on the "side" of the Police. If you feel this strongly about it, don't rant on a forum write a nice letter to your local member, preferably without using inflammatory language. By the way, it wouldn't surprise me if the Police had a look at most of the shooting forums, and some of the stuff I see doesn't look good from their point of view. Deep breath mate.
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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by adam » 07 Dec 2015, 7:23 am

My experiences with the police have mostly been positive as well. On the odd occasion I have come across a less than desirable cop - but it's normally the exception to the rule.

In the same way we don't like being all tarred with the same brush when some bogan goes and shoots up a road sign, I like to give the police the same courtesy.

From my personal experience, most police I've come across find that inspections are a waste of time - yet they do it because it's their duty - their job. They're friendly, yet professional. They certainly don't seem to care that I own firearms, and many of the chats I've had with them tells me that they too have firearms and enjoy shooting for recreation.

They're just obeying orders. I suspect that (for the most case) the problem is with the regulations and law, and the people behind this, than your day to day inspector.

When I try and put myself in their shoes I figure the last thing they need is to be stuffed around by one LFO after the other saying 'It's not convenient" just because I dislike the inspection rules. If it's really not convenient and I have a reasonable reason for delaying I'd suspect most would be understanding.

I imagine though it would start wearing thin very quickly though if I was just saying it's inconvenient to stuff them around - and that happens with the next inspection, and then the next. It'd get me frustrated as well...

Sure, I'm not a huge fan of inspections - I don't see the value, and from my experiences the police don't like it either. But I figure taking our frustrations out on each other hardly serves any good purpose, and just makes the situation worse.

There are many reasons to reduce (or eliminate) the need for a firearm registry / inspection, which favours both sides. This includes freeing up police resources to work on real crime (police are largely under resourced as it is), plus the risk that a central firearms registry provides when it comes to firearms theft. I'd like to see the laws changed to reflect this, and I'm sure that many police would like to see this changed as well. But I realise the local police officer knocking at my door is the last person that can make this happen so me taking it out on them really doesn't help much.

Plus - cops normally have to deal with undesirables every day. In some ways I guess it would be refreshing to have the odd job where they come to someone's house who's not having a domestic / drug affected / etc and have a friendly encounter instead. I see it as an opportunity to try and make their day. (excuse the pun) :)
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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by Chronos » 07 Dec 2015, 9:08 am

headspace wrote:Genesis, you seem a bit angry mate. You talk about "harp the bulls--t some Police person says" . I can only report on my own experiences with the Police and it's always been positive. You're making sweeping statements about the Police making life difficult, and then accuse Chronos and I of being on the "side" of the Police. If you feel this strongly about it, don't rant on a forum write a nice letter to your local member, preferably without using inflammatory language. By the way, it wouldn't surprise me if the Police had a look at most of the shooting forums, and some of the stuff I see doesn't look good from their point of view. Deep breath mate.



Probably angry at the inconvenience of having to "endure" a 20minute safe storage inspection every 5-7 years :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by happyhunter » 07 Dec 2015, 10:19 am

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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by Chronos » 07 Dec 2015, 10:30 am

happyhunter wrote:The fact that some people are accepting of warrantless entry by government into their homes shows that the conditioning of Australian gun owners into compliant puppies has been a success. You won't get to keep your guns by sucking up to the coppers.


It's legislation. What would you have us do? Barricade ourselves in our house with our guns and resist any attempt to allow police to enforce the law? I'm sure that would end well and set a good example of how firearms owners should behave :unknown:

If by "compliment puppies" you mean law abiding then yes. And you won't keep your guns by refusing to adhear to the letter of the law, for that matter by doing so you might put our guns at risk as well.

I mean how the hell can we ever hope to regain some ground against restrictive gun laws if half the shooting community refuse to follow the current laws. That's just dumb.

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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by happyhunter » 07 Dec 2015, 11:04 am

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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by brett1868 » 07 Dec 2015, 11:13 am

I've been inspected twice and both times I instigated the inspections as I needed the event number for a permit I was applying for. The officer arrived promptly at the agreed upon time of 10am and we spent near on 2 hours going through the various items in the safes. She checked everything very thoroughly including ammunition storage facilities and compared S/N against rego papers. I mentioned that I had another safe on order and will be installing it the following week so she asked that I call her once I had it bolted down. She was very professional and found no issues with my storage arrangement, even complimented me on the security measures I have in place. Once the formal work was completed we talked about shooting in general as she has her A/B license and often goes rabbit shooting with her boyfriend. I got a phone call later that afternoon with the event ID I needed and promptly sent my paperwork off to the registry.
I called her a couple week later to inspect the new safe, she dropped round and checked it a few hours later and all was good. We swapped mobile numbers and I've invited her and her boyfriend out for a shot of some big guns.

We should at all times be ambassadors of responsible firearm ownership and safe use be it to the general public or the police force. I see this as a good method to shut down the anti's. If you do nothing wrong then you shouldn't have anything to fear.
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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by Chronos » 07 Dec 2015, 11:23 am

brett1868 wrote:.
We should at all times be ambassadors of responsible firearm ownership and safe use be it to the general public or the police force. I see this as a good method to shut down the anti's. If you do nothing wrong then you shouldn't have anything to fear.


Amen brother :thumbsup:

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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by adam » 07 Dec 2015, 12:45 pm

happyhunter wrote:The fact that some people are accepting of warrantless entry by government into their homes shows that the conditioning of Australian gun owners into compliant puppies has been a success. You won't get to keep your guns by sucking up to the coppers.


If you want me to get offside with cops - then you're barking up the wrong tree. Getting along politely and friendly with cops is hardly "sucking up".

The fact that some people are blinded into thinking that it's the police who make legislation and that they're our enemy helps keep eyes focused off the real problem makers. Thinking that giving police a hard time for doing their jobs will help is foolish. That sort of logic fits with GCA's logic blaming LFO's for all the guns used by criminals. It shows complete rubbish and a lack of understanding. :thumbsdown:
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Re: Australia Set to Expand Warrantless Searches for Guns

Post by Wes » 07 Dec 2015, 1:40 pm

brett1868 wrote:If you do nothing wrong then you shouldn't have anything to fear.


Not trying to be a pessimist here but the problem (IMO) is the definition of "wrong" gets broader and broader.

Accidentally step over the wrong line on a map in a forest without even intending to take a shot and you would (in theory) have your guns seized, license cancelled, and go into the statistics for firearm "crime".

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