Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Questions about Tasmanian fun and ammunition laws. Tasmanian Firearms Act 1996.

Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by No1_49er » 30 Jul 2018, 9:32 pm

WatchyShooter wrote:Just take a read of what the SAPOL's own reports say
https://www.parliament.sa.gov.au/Houseo ... Police.pdf


Thanks WatchyShooter for posting the link.
I have deleted the extract because of the copyright which prevents me from copying it here, but, I think the most important message to take from the report w.r.t. LAFO is, to paraphrase paragraph 2 of page 18 "if you are the holder of a valid firearms licence you then have a right to own a firearm, and that right can only be removed by valid and lawful means".

How many toes did the Ombudsman tread on?
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Gaznazdiak » 31 Jul 2018, 11:13 am

Jandamurra wrote:
People have a right to keep and bear arms.


In America.

In the Nanny State of Australia we do not. We don't even have the right to own non-functioning toys that look like real guns.

We don't have the right to truly free speech because we have some of the most Draconian and restrictive defamation laws in the world.

We don't even have the right to defend ourselves from a home invader without risking prosecution.

We are letting the Don't Call Me Girl, Don't Eat Meat, Don't Call Me Poof, Don't Give Your Kids Gender Specific Toys, Caspar Milquetoast, Gender Studies Graduate Brigade incrementally turn us into a police state.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 31 Jul 2018, 3:08 pm

Rotfl


I agree, I have said a plenty of times but we will soon reach South Korea Korea laws he
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by straightshooter » 01 Aug 2018, 7:58 am

Apart from the usual rants, this thread contains many instances of confusing 'entrapment' and 'obtaining an admission by subterfuge'.
Although common in the US, particularly as portrayed on TV shows, entrapment is a risky proposition for police, in I think, all Australian states as it may expose them to a charge of conspiracy to commit a crime.
Whereas obtaining an admission by subterfuge and it's myriad variations is the most common technique for obtaining evidence by police.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by lightweight » 16 Aug 2018, 9:37 am

Hi All, I've been a long time lurker of this forum, but thought I would post my own experience.

Several years ago while I was out of the country working, the police showed up at my house to complete a gun safe inspection. My wife was home with our young son and answered the front door. The 2 police explained their reason for visiting and my wife let them know that I was out of the country. One of the officers asked if my wife could please open the safe, so they could check the numbers but my wife responded saying she didn't have a key. The policemen pushed and pushed, finally telling her to stop "f***ing around" and open the safe so they could check the numbers.

Luckily she didn't even have a key, so she just held firm. My wife is very careful and probably would of caved in if she did have a key after the amount of pressure they laid on her. I had one with me in East Timor and my Father- a licensed gun owner had the only other key (which my wife didn't even know about).

This is a first hand experience dealing with very pushy, unprofessional police (only the one). I've since had 2 other inspections that went very smoothly. I'm always very respectful and always offer them a cuppa before hand. Even when I've had unmatching numbers or even rifles that didn't exist on the register the police have been overwhelmingly professional.

The best defence is to not leave a key/combination with anyone who is un-licensed and follow the laws.

regards

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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Oldbloke » 16 Aug 2018, 8:44 pm

Faaaark. There is always one bad apple.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Rider888 » 17 Aug 2018, 6:44 am

lightweight wrote:Hi All, I've been a long time lurker of this forum, but thought I would post my own experience.

Several years ago while I was out of the country working, the police showed up at my house to complete a gun safe inspection. My wife was home with our young son and answered the front door. The 2 police explained their reason for visiting and my wife let them know that I was out of the country. One of the officers asked if my wife could please open the safe, so they could check the numbers but my wife responded saying she didn't have a key. The policemen pushed and pushed, finally telling her to stop "f***ing around" and open the safe so they could check the numbers.

Luckily she didn't even have a key, so she just held firm. My wife is very careful and probably would of caved in if she did have a key after the amount of pressure they laid on her. I had one with me in East Timor and my Father- a licensed gun owner had the only other key (which my wife didn't even know about).

This is a first hand experience dealing with very pushy, unprofessional police (only the one). I've since had 2 other inspections that went very smoothly. I'm always very respectful and always offer them a cuppa before hand. Even when I've had unmatching numbers or even rifles that didn't exist on the register the police have been overwhelmingly professional.

The best defence is to not leave a key/combination with anyone who is un-licensed and follow the laws.

regards

Lightweight



They have no right to come in when you are not home. The legislation states "at a time mutually agreeable to both parties"
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Gwion » 17 Aug 2018, 8:08 am

Rider888 wrote:
lightweight wrote:Hi All, I've been a long time lurker of this forum, but thought I would post my own experience.

Several years ago while I was out of the country working, the police showed up at my house to complete a gun safe inspection. My wife was home with our young son and answered the front door. The 2 police explained their reason for visiting and my wife let them know that I was out of the country. One of the officers asked if my wife could please open the safe, so they could check the numbers but my wife responded saying she didn't have a key. The policemen pushed and pushed, finally telling her to stop "f***ing around" and open the safe so they could check the numbers.

Luckily she didn't even have a key, so she just held firm. My wife is very careful and probably would of caved in if she did have a key after the amount of pressure they laid on her. I had one with me in East Timor and my Father- a licensed gun owner had the only other key (which my wife didn't even know about).

This is a first hand experience dealing with very pushy, unprofessional police (only the one). I've since had 2 other inspections that went very smoothly. I'm always very respectful and always offer them a cuppa before hand. Even when I've had unmatching numbers or even rifles that didn't exist on the register the police have been overwhelmingly professional.

The best defence is to not leave a key/combination with anyone who is un-licensed and follow the laws.

regards

Lightweight



They have no right to come in when you are not home. The legislation states "at a time mutually agreeable to both parties"


Compliance with authority, mate. What most 'good boys and girls' do. A fact that can be played on with the old, 'if your aren't doing anything wrong, tou have nothing to hide' accusation.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by No1_49er » 17 Aug 2018, 10:45 am

Gwion, you are correct; compliance with authority at a time mutually agreeable to both parties.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by doc » 21 Aug 2018, 1:02 pm

lightweight wrote:Hi All, I've been a long time lurker of this forum, but thought I would post my own experience.

Several years ago while I was out of the country working, the police showed up at my house to complete a gun safe inspection. My wife was home with our young son and answered the front door. The 2 police explained their reason for visiting and my wife let them know that I was out of the country. One of the officers asked if my wife could please open the safe, so they could check the numbers but my wife responded saying she didn't have a key. The policemen pushed and pushed, finally telling her to stop "f***ing around" and open the safe so they could check the numbers.

Luckily she didn't even have a key, so she just held firm. My wife is very careful and probably would of caved in if she did have a key after the amount of pressure they laid on her. I had one with me in East Timor and my Father- a licensed gun owner had the only other key (which my wife didn't even know about).

This is a first hand experience dealing with very pushy, unprofessional police (only the one). I've since had 2 other inspections that went very smoothly. I'm always very respectful and always offer them a cuppa before hand. Even when I've had unmatching numbers or even rifles that didn't exist on the register the police have been overwhelmingly professional.

The best defence is to not leave a key/combination with anyone who is un-licensed and follow the laws.

regards

Lightweight


Indeed. The alternative if you can afford it is to make sure everyone in the house holds a license. It's handy - other family members can buy ammo legally for me - bring me a gun if I'm out and need them to grab one from the safe, etc. Plus it adds to the number of licensed shooters we have in Australia. :-)

In saying that though - whilst yes it is technically illegal for non-firearm members to know where the keys are - have you ever tried hiding something for a long period of time from your spouse?

I can see the scenario where a spouse or family member who has never been told where the keys are - being pushed by the cops in a way mentioned above cave in and say "I'll have a look around dad / my spouses things and see what I can find", to then come back with 5 or 6 keys that they found, and then attempt to see if one opens the safe - only then to be charged if a key fits whilst trying to do the right thing.

Knowing the tactics that are used can help to prevent the innocent from getting done even when trying to obey the law. It shouldn't have to be like this, but unfortunately it is.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Gwion » 21 Aug 2018, 1:34 pm

No1_49er wrote:Gwion, you are correct; compliance with authority at a time mutually agreeable to both parties.


Yep. Do the right thing and organise a time to do it properly.

The point i was trying to make, probably rather poorly, is that the more shifty coppers will play on decent people's willingness to comply with authority to get you to do the wrong thing.

If your partner is not licenced then they need to understand that any request by police to inspect storage is to be met with a firm, 'not while the licenced person is not present'.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Gaznazdiak » 21 Aug 2018, 2:14 pm

I think part of the problem is that while most of us respect the authority represented by the uniform and the badge, we sometimes lose sight of the fact that inside the uniform is a fallible human.
There are still a lot of Roger Rogersons out there, hiding amongst the good guys, as we see from the number of reports of dodgy behaviour.

Know your rights and obligations, meet them and stand by them, if the try stand over tactics in your own home report the buggers.

There is, of course, the downside that regardless of the outcome of your complaint you'll then have a dodgy cop as a new enemy.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by sungazer » 21 Aug 2018, 2:35 pm

I think we all know that really it is impossible for your spouse to not know where the key is if you access the safe often. Not only from that reason of seeing your hidy spot. But your spouse more than likely regularly access the spot you keep the key. It may be your top draw where you keep nick nacks and loose change that your spouse puts things during clean ups. It may be your undies draw, I bet she does the washing and putting away of clothes.
Getting them Licensed is a very good idea not always so simple but a good idea.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by 2freeq » 21 Aug 2018, 3:19 pm

I have the rifle safe and a smaller safe in another area of house i keep some excess ammo etc. Both safes are combination safes with keys incase i lose the combination. I keep my spare key for each safe in the other safe as chances of both safes needing a key at same time is pretty rare. As stated it is impossible to hide a key from a spouse, if they want to find it they will. No-one else in my house knows the combination and the combinations is just a random number that is different to every other pin etc so it should be impossible to figure out.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by bigfellascott » 21 Aug 2018, 4:45 pm

sungazer wrote:I think we all know that really it is impossible for your spouse to not know where the key is if you access the safe often. Not only from that reason of seeing your hidy spot. But your spouse more than likely regularly access the spot you keep the key. It may be your top draw where you keep nick nacks and loose change that your spouse puts things during clean ups. It may be your undies draw, I bet she does the washing and putting away of clothes.
Getting them Licensed is a very good idea not always so simple but a good idea.


I just keep all my keys together on the one keyring, I don't worry about the spouse or kids, they don't bother with the safe.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Rod_outbak » 21 Aug 2018, 8:07 pm

Something I will clarify with WL at some stage (probably my next inspection)..

In QLD (Not sure how much this translates to other states; probably doesnt), as a Primary Producer, I can 'Direct' a person to operate my firearms, as long as they are eligible to hold a weapons licence in their own right (ie dont have criminal history, dont molest cats when drunk, dont frown at passing politicans etc...).
Any phukups made my the person come back onto the licence-holder (obviously!), but it allows a non-licensed person to operate my firearms, under My Direction.

Now, that allows my overseer, for instance to operate our Remington .223 on my licence.
The thing is, the WL act is rather vague about specifying 'My Direction'.
Do I have to be standing behind them?
Do I have to be anywhere near them at the time?
I cant see where section in the act pertaining to Primary Producers, states I need to be in attendance at all.
If I direct my overseer to grab the rifle, hop in the Hilux, drive 22kms South to the boredrain, and shoot any pigs he finds there, well he's done all of that on 'My Direction'.

The reason I'm pointing this out, is I would be interested to see what would happen if my overseer lets the police into the work gun-safe as part of a weapons inspection, as he will have done so at 'My Direction'. Profound irony if they ever try that, as my overseer doesnt have access to the other safes for Mr PLod to be able to check them out, so he'll get to look at the 2 work rifles, and nothing else.
So if Mr Plod wants to attempt entrapment, then he's going to have an interesting time proving that the overseer shouldnt have had access to the keys in the first place.
[Not that I'm in a screaming hurry to test this out; you understand??]

Just one of those quirks that I'll investigate at some stage...

Cheers,

Rod.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by No1_49er » 21 Aug 2018, 9:26 pm

Rod_outbak, can you indicate which section/paragraph of either the Act or Regulations refer to your query re "My Direction". I tried a quick search and didn't find anything that might help with interpretation.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by trekin » 22 Aug 2018, 4:52 am

No1_49er wrote:Rod_outbak, can you indicate which section/paragraph of either the Act or Regulations refer to your query re "My Direction". I tried a quick search and didn't find anything that might help with interpretation.

Section 54 (2) (c)
If Rod directs his overseer to grab the rifle, hop in the Hilux, drive 22kms South to the boredrain, and shoot any pigs he finds there, then he has done all of that with Rod's "expressed consent".
However, in the case of an inspection at a time when Rod is not present, unless the overseer has Rod's "expressed consent" in writing, either as a letter, or as written into the overseers employment contract, then the overseer should advise the inspecting officer to return at a time when Rod is present.

54 Possession or use of weapon by unlicensed person in primary production sometimes allowed
(1) In this section—
primary producer means a person who—
(a) has a licence; and
(b) usually carries out primary production on land (the primary producer’s land), even if only as an agent or employee of another person.
weapon means a weapon that a primary producer possesses under the authority of a licence.
(2) A person who is an agent, employee or member of the immediate family of the primary producer may possess or use
a weapon on the primary producer’s land, even if the person does not hold a licence for that category of weapon, if the person—
(a) assists the primary producer with primary production on the land; and
(b) is eligible to obtain a licence to possess a weapon; and
(c) only uses the weapon with the express consent of the primary producer; and
(d) only uses the weapon in connection with carrying out primary production on the land.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by bullzeye » 22 Aug 2018, 6:22 am

trekin wrote:
No1_49er wrote:Rod_outbak, can you indicate which section/paragraph of either the Act or Regulations refer to your query re "My Direction". I tried a quick search and didn't find anything that might help with interpretation.

Section 54 (2) (c)
If Rod directs his overseer to grab the rifle, hop in the Hilux, drive 22kms South to the boredrain, and shoot any pigs he finds there, then he has done all of that with Rod's "expressed consent".
However, in the case of an inspection at a time when Rod is not present, unless the overseer has Rod's "expressed consent" in writing, either as a letter, or as written into the overseers employment contract, then the overseer should advise the inspecting officer to return at a time when Rod is present.

54 Possession or use of weapon by unlicensed person in primary production sometimes allowed
(1) In this section—
primary producer means a person who—
(a) has a licence; and
(b) usually carries out primary production on land (the primary producer’s land), even if only as an agent or employee of another person.
weapon means a weapon that a primary producer possesses under the authority of a licence.
(2) A person who is an agent, employee or member of the immediate family of the primary producer may possess or use
a weapon on the primary producer’s land, even if the person does not hold a licence for that category of weapon, if the person—
(a) assists the primary producer with primary production on the land; and
(b) is eligible to obtain a licence to possess a weapon; and
(c) only uses the weapon with the express consent of the primary producer; and
(d) only uses the weapon in connection with carrying out primary production on the land.


Quite a nugget you've find in the legislation there. Nice one.

I bet many of us would have no idea unlicensed people can use Firearms for Primary Production, under fairly strict circumstances.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Rod_outbak » 22 Aug 2018, 6:59 am

trekin,

Thanks for that; exactly the section I was talking about.

If it ever arose(highly unlikely), the big question would be if I gave verbal consent for the overseer to open the safe for Mr Plod.
Given the overseer doesnt have access to everything to do a proper inspection anyway, I'd be telling Plod to bugger off and find a time agreeable to both parties..

Cheers,

Rod.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by trekin » 22 Aug 2018, 9:10 am

bullzeye wrote:
trekin wrote:
No1_49er wrote:Rod_outbak, can you indicate which section/paragraph of either the Act or Regulations refer to your query re "My Direction". I tried a quick search and didn't find anything that might help with interpretation.

Section 54 (2) (c)
If Rod directs his overseer to grab the rifle, hop in the Hilux, drive 22kms South to the boredrain, and shoot any pigs he finds there, then he has done all of that with Rod's "expressed consent".
However, in the case of an inspection at a time when Rod is not present, unless the overseer has Rod's "expressed consent" in writing, either as a letter, or as written into the overseers employment contract, then the overseer should advise the inspecting officer to return at a time when Rod is present.

54 Possession or use of weapon by unlicensed person in primary production sometimes allowed
(1) In this section—
primary producer means a person who—
(a) has a licence; and
(b) usually carries out primary production on land (the primary producer’s land), even if only as an agent or employee of another person.
weapon means a weapon that a primary producer possesses under the authority of a licence.
(2) A person who is an agent, employee or member of the immediate family of the primary producer may possess or use
a weapon on the primary producer’s land, even if the person does not hold a licence for that category of weapon, if the person—
(a) assists the primary producer with primary production on the land; and
(b) is eligible to obtain a licence to possess a weapon; and
(c) only uses the weapon with the express consent of the primary producer; and
(d) only uses the weapon in connection with carrying out primary production on the land.


Quite a nugget you've find in the legislation there. Nice one.

I bet many of us would have no idea unlicensed people can use Firearms for Primary Production, under fairly strict circumstances.

This is QLD legislation, your States laws may, and probably will, vairy.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by trekin » 22 Aug 2018, 9:20 am

Rod_outbak wrote:trekin,

Thanks for that; exactly the section I was talking about.

If it ever arose(highly unlikely), the big question would be if I gave verbal consent for the overseer to open the safe for Mr Plod.
Given the overseer doesnt have access to everything to do a proper inspection anyway, I'd be telling Plod to bugger off and find a time agreeable to both parties..

Cheers,

Rod.

Which is why I would suggest that it be in writing, and a further suggestion would be to have a sign in/out book. However, as you mentioned, here in QLD, inspections are to be done at a time agreeable to both parties anyway, so the same 'Sgt Schults rule' applies as with unlicenced wife/partner.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Lyonsy » 14 Oct 2018, 3:41 am

Usually only come around if they’re quiet. Unless you’re getting cat H you’ll probably only see them if they’re bored or you’ve done something wrong. I’ve had my licence nearly 10 years and haven’t had an inspection yet. I can only remember one inspection on my old man since 96, they showed up randomly but when I said he at work and I can’t open it they just came on the weekend looked at some of his nice 303s got they’re ear talked off and that was it lol. Think they’re pretty fair unsless you’re blatantly disregarding simple rules.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by duncan61 » 14 Oct 2018, 12:15 pm

The deal here is when you move or are new you take pictur es of the 2 bolts in the wall and floor with 10mm minimum bolts and 40mm washers that are holding the safe in.send them to licensing job done
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by No1_49er » 15 Oct 2018, 10:29 am

duncan61 wrote:The deal here is when you move or are new you take pictur es of the 2 bolts in the wall and floor with 10mm minimum bolts and 40mm washers that are holding the safe in.send them to licensing job done

I know it's a WA thing, but what the heck is it with the 40mm washers, as though the panel of the safe that the bolts are going through isn't a rather large washer :thumbsdown: Obviously written by some gumby lawyer with absolutely no life skills :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: Worse, the pollies passed it into legislation; no life skills there either :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by bladeracer » 15 Oct 2018, 1:28 pm

During the safety course we were told the keys were the same as keeping your car keys in the house with people that aren't allowed to drive. They can know where they are, they just can't use them. I think the "offence" would be the actual opening of the safe by an unlicenced person, not that an unlicenced person had access to your keys.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by JSS » 15 Oct 2018, 3:44 pm

bladeracer wrote:During the safety course we were told the keys were the same as keeping your car keys in the house with people that aren't allowed to drive. They can know where they are, they just can't use them. I think the "offence" would be the actual opening of the safe by an unlicenced person, not that an unlicenced person had access to your keys.


Don't know about Vic but up here if an unlicenced person knows where your keys are you are done. Basically if they know where your keys are then it's up to them if they want to play with your guns, as the licence holder it's your responsibility to prevent access to your fireamrs by unlicenced people, you don't get to choose who you can trust and who you can't.

Your safe keys are like your porn collection was when you were a kid, you've gotta keep that s**t hidden!! :drinks:
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by bladeracer » 15 Oct 2018, 4:59 pm

JSS wrote:
bladeracer wrote:During the safety course we were told the keys were the same as keeping your car keys in the house with people that aren't allowed to drive. They can know where they are, they just can't use them. I think the "offence" would be the actual opening of the safe by an unlicenced person, not that an unlicenced person had access to your keys.


Don't know about Vic but up here if an unlicenced person knows where your keys are you are done. Basically if they know where your keys are then it's up to them if they want to play with your guns, as the licence holder it's your responsibility to prevent access to your fireamrs by unlicenced people, you don't get to choose who you can trust and who you can't.

Your safe keys are like your porn collection was when you were a kid, you've gotta keep that s**t hidden!! :drinks:


Can you quote the specific regulation that makes it illegal for any unlicenced person to know the location of your keys?
I still think the offence would be the actual opening of the safe by an unlicenced person, I don't think you could charge somebody simply because somebody else knows where they keep their keys.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Daddybang » 15 Oct 2018, 6:04 pm

In qld it comes under t."taking all reasonable precautions to ensure ya firearm cant be accessed by an unauthorized person"
I know two people who have been charged and ended up losing their license because they're unlicensed spouses indicated they knew the location of the safe keys during an inspection. :drinks:
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 15 Oct 2018, 7:04 pm

My safety course guy said same, don't tell the wife where the keys are or if she knows tell her to deny any knowledge of the location of the keys. (In vic)
Sergeant Hartman
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
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Victoria

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