Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Questions about Tasmanian fun and ammunition laws. Tasmanian Firearms Act 1996.

Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by doc » 11 May 2017, 5:54 pm

Jandamurra wrote:I'm also wondering about the legality of what happens after the trap is sprung. Does anyone know exactly what happens next? Do the police honor the principle of innocent until proven guilty? How do they know the LAFO willingly provided or negligently allowed their partner access to the information? If the wife (for the sake of argument) went out of her way to obtain this information, aren't she the one who's committed the crime ( not that I regard iot as an actual crime, I must add)?


You've struck the main problem. The police can confiscate your guns, and choose to go no further if they wish. This means no pending court case to 'have your say'. Your guns gone, and no further action needs to be taken by them.

I'm not sure of the exact process if you choose to initiate & pursue the matter further yourself to get your firearms back - but while you're not 'technically' guilty of a crime at that point - they don't need you to be to take your firearms.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by sungazer » 11 May 2017, 6:38 pm

I can unequivocally say that the practice of making an agreed time to inspect does not always occur in Victoria. I have had the police unexpectedly arrive at the door and say its that time of year we wish to inspect your safe and location of your guns.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 11 May 2017, 10:27 pm

sungazer wrote:I can unequivocally say that the practice of making an agreed time to inspect does not always occur in Victoria. I have had the police unexpectedly arrive at the door and say its that time of year we wish to inspect your safe and location of your guns.


Thats the SOP - they rock up at whatever time, or as they've done to me yrs ago called at pm "we're just around the corner.....while we're here...."
- It is fully in your rights to decline and 'request' a more convenient time.... you might be eating tea, putting the kids to bed, about to go out etc..... all fully reasonable response on your behalf.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by WatchyShooter » 13 May 2017, 10:45 pm

Just take a read of what the SAPOL's own reports say

https://www.parliament.sa.gov.au/Houseo ... Police.pdf

I have received a number of complaints concerning the operations of the Firearms Branch of the SA Police in my tenure as the Acting Police Ombudsman relating to the way in which the Firearms Branch enforces the Act and deals with the public who hold firearms licences and who own firearms.
The oft-cited mantra is that firearms ownership is a privilege, not a right. However, the same mantra might apply equally to the driving of a motor vehicle on a public road. I make the observation that the ownership of firearms is a "right" by virtue of the Firearms Act if one is the holder of a valid firearms licence. That right may be removed by administrative action, but such administrative action should not be in any way capricious and should be validly and lawfully exercised.
The complaints I have received in the main have related to the delays which occur in dealing with the Firearms Branch, and the perceived lack of any sense of dealing with matters in a timely fashion. The complaints included what appeared to be an ingrained habit of the Branch in either ignoring correspondence completely, or purporting to answer only after several letters have been sent on the same topic and several months have passed. At one stage I was informed by the Firearms Branch, following a complaint, of a reorganisation which would supposedly lead to better customer service. This does not appear to me to have occurred.
It is also apparent to me that the culture at the Firearms Branch is one of "zero tolerance" when it comes to any infringement of the Firearms Act, however minor or inconsequential. It seems to me, that in cases of inadvertent minor offending by a member of the public with no history of previous offending, the use of a "caution" would be a better option than a prosecution for a criminal offence
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by WatchyShooter » 13 May 2017, 10:47 pm

Go read the 2 cases on page 19 about how they took DNA and weapons from people and realise how bad the police can push when you don't fully understand your own rights
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Oldbloke » 14 May 2017, 9:18 am

WatchyShooter wrote:Go read the 2 cases on page 19 about how they took DNA and weapons from people and realise how bad the police can push when you don't fully understand your own rights


Cases 1 & 2 are examples of gross miss use of authority. The police involved should have been disciplined of sacked IMO.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by WatchyShooter » 14 May 2017, 10:04 am

Oldbloke wrote:
WatchyShooter wrote:Go read the 2 cases on page 19 about how they took DNA and weapons from people and realise how bad the police can push when you don't fully understand your own rights


Cases 1 & 2 are examples of gross miss use of authority. The police involved should have been disciplined of sacked IMO.


And just think for a minute, this is just 2 cases as examples, from one state.
Imagine how many other violations and gross misuse of powers are exerted not only on LAFO but all citizens.

The worst thing is that out of all the states SA was the only one with a ombudsmen, but
The next 12 months will probably see the closure of the OPO and the transition of operations to the ICAC.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Gaznazdiak » 30 Jul 2018, 12:28 pm

Probably jinx myself for bringing it up but I haven't been inspected yet in 3 plus years since I stuck my hand up and became licenced etc.

Is it correct that they make a mutually convenient time in advance or do they just lob in?
I'm in NSW, if that matters, and 35km from the nearest town.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by No1_49er » 30 Jul 2018, 1:03 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:Probably jinx myself for bringing it up but I haven't been inspected yet in 3 plus years since I stuck my hand up and became licenced etc.
Is it correct that they make a mutually convenient time in advance or do they just lob in?
I'm in NSW, if that matters, and 35km from the nearest town.


I have a feeling that unless they have a Warrant for the specific purpose, and they just "lob in" on the off chance, simply because you are there, having opened the door to them, that you just might be on your way out to an appointment, in which case it is not convenient. You could then negotiate a "mutually agreeable time" for their return for inspection.

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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Wylie27 » 30 Jul 2018, 1:30 pm

NSW must be a mutually agreed time organised prior to the meeting

They cannot just lob up and wont..
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Gaznazdiak » 30 Jul 2018, 5:57 pm

Wylie27 wrote:NSW must be a mutually agreed time organised prior to the meeting

They cannot just lob up and wont..


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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by MontyShooter » 30 Jul 2018, 7:56 pm

They just lob up in Vic.
Did for me anyway at about 8:30 one sat night.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by No1_49er » 30 Jul 2018, 9:32 pm

WatchyShooter wrote:Just take a read of what the SAPOL's own reports say
https://www.parliament.sa.gov.au/Houseo ... Police.pdf


Thanks WatchyShooter for posting the link.
I have deleted the extract because of the copyright which prevents me from copying it here, but, I think the most important message to take from the report w.r.t. LAFO is, to paraphrase paragraph 2 of page 18 "if you are the holder of a valid firearms licence you then have a right to own a firearm, and that right can only be removed by valid and lawful means".

How many toes did the Ombudsman tread on?
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Gaznazdiak » 31 Jul 2018, 11:13 am

Jandamurra wrote:
People have a right to keep and bear arms.


In America.

In the Nanny State of Australia we do not. We don't even have the right to own non-functioning toys that look like real guns.

We don't have the right to truly free speech because we have some of the most Draconian and restrictive defamation laws in the world.

We don't even have the right to defend ourselves from a home invader without risking prosecution.

We are letting the Don't Call Me Girl, Don't Eat Meat, Don't Call Me Poof, Don't Give Your Kids Gender Specific Toys, Caspar Milquetoast, Gender Studies Graduate Brigade incrementally turn us into a police state.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 31 Jul 2018, 3:08 pm

Rotfl


I agree, I have said a plenty of times but we will soon reach South Korea Korea laws he
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by straightshooter » 01 Aug 2018, 7:58 am

Apart from the usual rants, this thread contains many instances of confusing 'entrapment' and 'obtaining an admission by subterfuge'.
Although common in the US, particularly as portrayed on TV shows, entrapment is a risky proposition for police, in I think, all Australian states as it may expose them to a charge of conspiracy to commit a crime.
Whereas obtaining an admission by subterfuge and it's myriad variations is the most common technique for obtaining evidence by police.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by lightweight » 16 Aug 2018, 9:37 am

Hi All, I've been a long time lurker of this forum, but thought I would post my own experience.

Several years ago while I was out of the country working, the police showed up at my house to complete a gun safe inspection. My wife was home with our young son and answered the front door. The 2 police explained their reason for visiting and my wife let them know that I was out of the country. One of the officers asked if my wife could please open the safe, so they could check the numbers but my wife responded saying she didn't have a key. The policemen pushed and pushed, finally telling her to stop "f***ing around" and open the safe so they could check the numbers.

Luckily she didn't even have a key, so she just held firm. My wife is very careful and probably would of caved in if she did have a key after the amount of pressure they laid on her. I had one with me in East Timor and my Father- a licensed gun owner had the only other key (which my wife didn't even know about).

This is a first hand experience dealing with very pushy, unprofessional police (only the one). I've since had 2 other inspections that went very smoothly. I'm always very respectful and always offer them a cuppa before hand. Even when I've had unmatching numbers or even rifles that didn't exist on the register the police have been overwhelmingly professional.

The best defence is to not leave a key/combination with anyone who is un-licensed and follow the laws.

regards

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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Oldbloke » 16 Aug 2018, 8:44 pm

Faaaark. There is always one bad apple.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Rider888 » 17 Aug 2018, 6:44 am

lightweight wrote:Hi All, I've been a long time lurker of this forum, but thought I would post my own experience.

Several years ago while I was out of the country working, the police showed up at my house to complete a gun safe inspection. My wife was home with our young son and answered the front door. The 2 police explained their reason for visiting and my wife let them know that I was out of the country. One of the officers asked if my wife could please open the safe, so they could check the numbers but my wife responded saying she didn't have a key. The policemen pushed and pushed, finally telling her to stop "f***ing around" and open the safe so they could check the numbers.

Luckily she didn't even have a key, so she just held firm. My wife is very careful and probably would of caved in if she did have a key after the amount of pressure they laid on her. I had one with me in East Timor and my Father- a licensed gun owner had the only other key (which my wife didn't even know about).

This is a first hand experience dealing with very pushy, unprofessional police (only the one). I've since had 2 other inspections that went very smoothly. I'm always very respectful and always offer them a cuppa before hand. Even when I've had unmatching numbers or even rifles that didn't exist on the register the police have been overwhelmingly professional.

The best defence is to not leave a key/combination with anyone who is un-licensed and follow the laws.

regards

Lightweight



They have no right to come in when you are not home. The legislation states "at a time mutually agreeable to both parties"
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Gwion » 17 Aug 2018, 8:08 am

Rider888 wrote:
lightweight wrote:Hi All, I've been a long time lurker of this forum, but thought I would post my own experience.

Several years ago while I was out of the country working, the police showed up at my house to complete a gun safe inspection. My wife was home with our young son and answered the front door. The 2 police explained their reason for visiting and my wife let them know that I was out of the country. One of the officers asked if my wife could please open the safe, so they could check the numbers but my wife responded saying she didn't have a key. The policemen pushed and pushed, finally telling her to stop "f***ing around" and open the safe so they could check the numbers.

Luckily she didn't even have a key, so she just held firm. My wife is very careful and probably would of caved in if she did have a key after the amount of pressure they laid on her. I had one with me in East Timor and my Father- a licensed gun owner had the only other key (which my wife didn't even know about).

This is a first hand experience dealing with very pushy, unprofessional police (only the one). I've since had 2 other inspections that went very smoothly. I'm always very respectful and always offer them a cuppa before hand. Even when I've had unmatching numbers or even rifles that didn't exist on the register the police have been overwhelmingly professional.

The best defence is to not leave a key/combination with anyone who is un-licensed and follow the laws.

regards

Lightweight



They have no right to come in when you are not home. The legislation states "at a time mutually agreeable to both parties"


Compliance with authority, mate. What most 'good boys and girls' do. A fact that can be played on with the old, 'if your aren't doing anything wrong, tou have nothing to hide' accusation.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by No1_49er » 17 Aug 2018, 10:45 am

Gwion, you are correct; compliance with authority at a time mutually agreeable to both parties.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by doc » 21 Aug 2018, 1:02 pm

lightweight wrote:Hi All, I've been a long time lurker of this forum, but thought I would post my own experience.

Several years ago while I was out of the country working, the police showed up at my house to complete a gun safe inspection. My wife was home with our young son and answered the front door. The 2 police explained their reason for visiting and my wife let them know that I was out of the country. One of the officers asked if my wife could please open the safe, so they could check the numbers but my wife responded saying she didn't have a key. The policemen pushed and pushed, finally telling her to stop "f***ing around" and open the safe so they could check the numbers.

Luckily she didn't even have a key, so she just held firm. My wife is very careful and probably would of caved in if she did have a key after the amount of pressure they laid on her. I had one with me in East Timor and my Father- a licensed gun owner had the only other key (which my wife didn't even know about).

This is a first hand experience dealing with very pushy, unprofessional police (only the one). I've since had 2 other inspections that went very smoothly. I'm always very respectful and always offer them a cuppa before hand. Even when I've had unmatching numbers or even rifles that didn't exist on the register the police have been overwhelmingly professional.

The best defence is to not leave a key/combination with anyone who is un-licensed and follow the laws.

regards

Lightweight


Indeed. The alternative if you can afford it is to make sure everyone in the house holds a license. It's handy - other family members can buy ammo legally for me - bring me a gun if I'm out and need them to grab one from the safe, etc. Plus it adds to the number of licensed shooters we have in Australia. :-)

In saying that though - whilst yes it is technically illegal for non-firearm members to know where the keys are - have you ever tried hiding something for a long period of time from your spouse?

I can see the scenario where a spouse or family member who has never been told where the keys are - being pushed by the cops in a way mentioned above cave in and say "I'll have a look around dad / my spouses things and see what I can find", to then come back with 5 or 6 keys that they found, and then attempt to see if one opens the safe - only then to be charged if a key fits whilst trying to do the right thing.

Knowing the tactics that are used can help to prevent the innocent from getting done even when trying to obey the law. It shouldn't have to be like this, but unfortunately it is.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Gwion » 21 Aug 2018, 1:34 pm

No1_49er wrote:Gwion, you are correct; compliance with authority at a time mutually agreeable to both parties.


Yep. Do the right thing and organise a time to do it properly.

The point i was trying to make, probably rather poorly, is that the more shifty coppers will play on decent people's willingness to comply with authority to get you to do the wrong thing.

If your partner is not licenced then they need to understand that any request by police to inspect storage is to be met with a firm, 'not while the licenced person is not present'.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Gaznazdiak » 21 Aug 2018, 2:14 pm

I think part of the problem is that while most of us respect the authority represented by the uniform and the badge, we sometimes lose sight of the fact that inside the uniform is a fallible human.
There are still a lot of Roger Rogersons out there, hiding amongst the good guys, as we see from the number of reports of dodgy behaviour.

Know your rights and obligations, meet them and stand by them, if the try stand over tactics in your own home report the buggers.

There is, of course, the downside that regardless of the outcome of your complaint you'll then have a dodgy cop as a new enemy.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by sungazer » 21 Aug 2018, 2:35 pm

I think we all know that really it is impossible for your spouse to not know where the key is if you access the safe often. Not only from that reason of seeing your hidy spot. But your spouse more than likely regularly access the spot you keep the key. It may be your top draw where you keep nick nacks and loose change that your spouse puts things during clean ups. It may be your undies draw, I bet she does the washing and putting away of clothes.
Getting them Licensed is a very good idea not always so simple but a good idea.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by 2freeq » 21 Aug 2018, 3:19 pm

I have the rifle safe and a smaller safe in another area of house i keep some excess ammo etc. Both safes are combination safes with keys incase i lose the combination. I keep my spare key for each safe in the other safe as chances of both safes needing a key at same time is pretty rare. As stated it is impossible to hide a key from a spouse, if they want to find it they will. No-one else in my house knows the combination and the combinations is just a random number that is different to every other pin etc so it should be impossible to figure out.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by bigfellascott » 21 Aug 2018, 4:45 pm

sungazer wrote:I think we all know that really it is impossible for your spouse to not know where the key is if you access the safe often. Not only from that reason of seeing your hidy spot. But your spouse more than likely regularly access the spot you keep the key. It may be your top draw where you keep nick nacks and loose change that your spouse puts things during clean ups. It may be your undies draw, I bet she does the washing and putting away of clothes.
Getting them Licensed is a very good idea not always so simple but a good idea.


I just keep all my keys together on the one keyring, I don't worry about the spouse or kids, they don't bother with the safe.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by Rod_outbak » 21 Aug 2018, 8:07 pm

Something I will clarify with WL at some stage (probably my next inspection)..

In QLD (Not sure how much this translates to other states; probably doesnt), as a Primary Producer, I can 'Direct' a person to operate my firearms, as long as they are eligible to hold a weapons licence in their own right (ie dont have criminal history, dont molest cats when drunk, dont frown at passing politicans etc...).
Any phukups made my the person come back onto the licence-holder (obviously!), but it allows a non-licensed person to operate my firearms, under My Direction.

Now, that allows my overseer, for instance to operate our Remington .223 on my licence.
The thing is, the WL act is rather vague about specifying 'My Direction'.
Do I have to be standing behind them?
Do I have to be anywhere near them at the time?
I cant see where section in the act pertaining to Primary Producers, states I need to be in attendance at all.
If I direct my overseer to grab the rifle, hop in the Hilux, drive 22kms South to the boredrain, and shoot any pigs he finds there, well he's done all of that on 'My Direction'.

The reason I'm pointing this out, is I would be interested to see what would happen if my overseer lets the police into the work gun-safe as part of a weapons inspection, as he will have done so at 'My Direction'. Profound irony if they ever try that, as my overseer doesnt have access to the other safes for Mr PLod to be able to check them out, so he'll get to look at the 2 work rifles, and nothing else.
So if Mr Plod wants to attempt entrapment, then he's going to have an interesting time proving that the overseer shouldnt have had access to the keys in the first place.
[Not that I'm in a screaming hurry to test this out; you understand??]

Just one of those quirks that I'll investigate at some stage...

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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by No1_49er » 21 Aug 2018, 9:26 pm

Rod_outbak, can you indicate which section/paragraph of either the Act or Regulations refer to your query re "My Direction". I tried a quick search and didn't find anything that might help with interpretation.
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Re: Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

Post by trekin » 22 Aug 2018, 4:52 am

No1_49er wrote:Rod_outbak, can you indicate which section/paragraph of either the Act or Regulations refer to your query re "My Direction". I tried a quick search and didn't find anything that might help with interpretation.

Section 54 (2) (c)
If Rod directs his overseer to grab the rifle, hop in the Hilux, drive 22kms South to the boredrain, and shoot any pigs he finds there, then he has done all of that with Rod's "expressed consent".
However, in the case of an inspection at a time when Rod is not present, unless the overseer has Rod's "expressed consent" in writing, either as a letter, or as written into the overseers employment contract, then the overseer should advise the inspecting officer to return at a time when Rod is present.

54 Possession or use of weapon by unlicensed person in primary production sometimes allowed
(1) In this section—
primary producer means a person who—
(a) has a licence; and
(b) usually carries out primary production on land (the primary producer’s land), even if only as an agent or employee of another person.
weapon means a weapon that a primary producer possesses under the authority of a licence.
(2) A person who is an agent, employee or member of the immediate family of the primary producer may possess or use
a weapon on the primary producer’s land, even if the person does not hold a licence for that category of weapon, if the person—
(a) assists the primary producer with primary production on the land; and
(b) is eligible to obtain a licence to possess a weapon; and
(c) only uses the weapon with the express consent of the primary producer; and
(d) only uses the weapon in connection with carrying out primary production on the land.
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