Gun safe inspection and "entrapment"

[bladeracer]

I haven't had my safe inspected yet but generally cops are pretty good. Be a tool and you will create problems for yourself.

As far as others knowing where your gun safe key is... THE LAW SAYS THEY CAN"T. Either don't tell your wife/child or make sure they know to act dumb. If your wife/child knows where the key is, gives it to the cops and you get busted its your fault...

I haven't been inspected either since getting my Victorian Licence when we moved here in 2014.
But I got my first firearms licence in '80 in WA, then an SA licence, then back to WA (same licence number I'd had years before), and now Victoria. I'm guessing my past history gives them some idea that an inspection is probably not a priority.
But very soon I'll be into the "more than fifteen firearms" so I expect they'll want to inspect my alarm system.

Police explained to me the gun safe keys as being no different to having kids or other family members in your house that aren't allowed to drive - you don't have to hide the car keys from them (unless they're a problem), they're just not allowed to use them.

[sally-bee]

Bazinga....

offence not to 'produce' your firearms...

"officer, please wait on the front porch while I 'produce' my firearms...."

Still on your property.. They better go wait on the road and you can carry them out for the neighbours to see

[doc]

Police explained to me the gun safe keys as being no different to having kids or other family members in your house that aren't allowed to drive - you don't have to hide the car keys from them (unless they're a problem), they're just not allowed to use them.

This is an interesting approach, not one I'm convinced I'd like to test.

The regs state:

Sch. 4 item 2(2A) inserted by No. 28/2003 s. 75(2).

(2A) The key to the container in which the firearm is stored must—

(a) be carried by the holder of the licence; or

(b) be kept securely in a separate room from the container—

when the container is not being accessed.

I'd be interested to see the regs in regards to car key storage requirements, but doubt it's worded the same. If it is - then yes, you could compare car keys, but if not then it would fall to interpretation of 'kept securely' - which I think being accessible by other non-licensed people wouldn't suffice.

(Just remember - just because a police tells you their understanding of the law doesn't mean that it's right or you can depend on it, and it's definitely no defense if you get done and 'a cop said it was ok').

Plus, since we have stories of people who have been done for their spouse knowing where the key is and giving it to the police I think this would be something not worth testing either.

However in the end, I think most police couldn't give a rip if your spouse knows where the key is or not - provided they don't tell them that they know.

[bladeracer]

Police explained to me the gun safe keys as being no different to having kids or other family members in your house that aren't allowed to drive - you don't have to hide the car keys from them (unless they're a problem), they're just not allowed to use them.

This is an interesting approach, not one I'm convinced I'd like to test.

The regs state:

Sch. 4 item 2(2A) inserted by No. 28/2003 s. 75(2).

(2A) The key to the container in which the firearm is stored must—

(a) be carried by the holder of the licence; or

(b) be kept securely in a separate room from the container—

when the container is not being accessed.

I'd be interested to see the regs in regards to car key storage requirements, but doubt it's worded the same. If it is - then yes, you could compare car keys, but if not then it would fall to interpretation of 'kept securely' - which I think being accessible by other non-licensed people wouldn't suffice.

(Just remember - just because a police tells you their understanding of the law doesn't mean that it's right or you can depend on it, and it's definitely no defense if you get done and 'a cop said it was ok').

Plus, since we have stories of people who have been done for their spouse knowing where the key is and giving it to the police I think this would be something not worth testing either.

However in the end, I think most police couldn't give a rip if your spouse knows where the key is or not - provided they don't tell them that they know.

You raise another good point.
I know here in Victoria it is illegal to leave your vehicle unlocked, but I don't know if that law also references securing the keys.

[<<Genesis93>>]

haha in the great socialist republic of Victoria it is illegal to drink-car-key... thats kind of like drink driving, but its drinking alcoholic beverages while in possession of you car key because you might drive....not driving - don't even near to be touching or near your car.

YAY for democrazy

Its also as of NOW a specific offence to moon. Yup, could face 6 months in the klink if you bare your 'anus', or as Borat says Anoos.

What a sad sad time we live in.

[darwindingo]

Perhaps it would be permissible to MOON if you pay for a permit ?..

I haven't seen anyone do it for ages, apparently it's common enough to make it illegal though Or they are running low on BS to legislate...



One for the legislators....



Jeff

[happyhunter]

Perhaps it would be permissible to MOON if you pay for a permit ?..

I haven't seen anyone do it for ages, apparently it's common enough to make it illegal though Or they are running low on BS to legislate...



One for the legislators....



Jeff

Last time we did that it ended in a road rage incdent. The dude pulled up at the lights and came up yelling and screaming blue murder until he realised there was one brother, two mates, a dog and myself in the car

[<<Genesis93>>]

why create more offences??

“If you contemplate a situation where it’s not (an offence) you could have people simply doing it everyday with no possibility of any kind of sanction,” Mr Pakula said.

ya, people will be walking down the street just..... randomly mooning and if they do...luckily they can be 'sanctioned' to protect our dignity as a community...

and just quietly, lets sneak in;

The act also outlaws singing “an obscene song or ballad” and behaving in a “riotous, indecent, offensive or insulting manner”.

Yup. a free society when someone can decide to be offended or insulted, this sounds EXACTLY like an anticipation of the FEDS removing those words from Commonwealth laws....so the Socialist State of VIC is putting their backup in place.

[darwindingo]

Ahh, the good old legislation state ( Last visit to Vic I saw a number plate that said education state, But legislation state would seem more appropriate)..

Gee Moon Rage HH, wow. . I just laugh, when I see something like that... People are getting soft.....



Jeff

[sakoBC]

The disappointing part in all this is some people are using the word 'positive' in describing the police performing a warrantless entry to their home. Now that's conditioning.

I understand what you are saying, but it is not optional my friend.
"It is a condition on a licence that the licensee allows inspection by police of the safe keeping and storage facilities for the firearm at a mutually agreed time - section 19(2)(c) of the Act."

All of my inspections have started with an officer calling me to arrange a time that is convenient for me. This has often meant that they had to wait more than a week to meet with me.

It was a condition of my licence when I applied, so I can't really complain about it after the fact. Personally, I don't have a problem with a pre-agreed inspection visit. In the event that my firearms are ever stolen I have evidence that I was inspected six times and found to be complying with the storage requirements every time.

[happyhunter]

The disappointing part in all this is some people are using the word 'positive' in describing the police performing a warrantless entry to their home. Now that's conditioning.

I understand what you are saying, but it is not optional my friend.
"It is a condition on a licence that the licensee allows inspection by police of the safe keeping and storage facilities for the firearm at a mutually agreed time - section 19(2)(c) of the Act."

All of my inspections have started with an officer calling me to arrange a time that is convenient for me. This has often meant that they had to wait more than a week to meet with me.

It was a condition of my licence when I applied, so I can't really complain about it after the fact. Personally, I don't have a problem with a pre-agreed inspection visit. In the event that my firearms are ever stolen I have evidence that I was inspected six times and found to be complying with the storage requirements every time.

When I walked into the cop shop at age 12 with the old man and paid 9 bucks for my license there was no requirement to allow storage in inspections. When I turned 18 and my junior permit became a full license, there was still no requirement to allow entry for inspections. Therefore, I don't think you understand what I'm saying my friend.

[doc]

You raise another good point.
I know here in Victoria it is illegal to leave your vehicle unlocked, but I don't know if that law also references securing the keys.

It's under the Victorian Road Safety Road Rules 2009 (SR95/2009) penalty code 2135 under the miscellaneous section:

Leave motor vehicle unattended with keys in ignition, motor running, brakes not secured or doors unlocked

... and incurs a $148 penalty. Unlike the firearms act, I can not find anywhere about having the keys secured - just the above, with the keys in ignition, so I would suspect that the ol 'if car keys can be kept in view of non-licensed drivers, so should firearm safe keys' wouldn't fly.

Another rule that some NSW people here probably aren't aware they're breaking is that you must stop at a train crossing (regardless of whether the boom gates are operating or not) and check for trains if you are carrying "flammable, explosive or dangerous" goods.

I haven't got the direct link to the regulation, but you can see it referenced at the bottom of the page at http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety- ... sings.html

Whether this relates only to placarded loads, or any is not mentioned, so under the strict letter of the law of our over regulated states, I'd say it's possible. In fact, I dare say that almost everyone these days is breaking laws - that there is a regulation to trip everyone - it's just that we just aren't all aware of what those laws are.

Leave your window down on a hot day more than 5cm - you can be booked. (Google Julian Harris Window Fine)

Use your horn to 'toot toot' goodbye to someone - technically illegal...

We're still a country full of convicts by the looks of it, we just haven't all been caught yet for these rules we're all breaking.

[sakoBC]

When I walked into the cop shop at age 12 with the old man and paid 9 bucks for my license there was no requirement to allow storage in inspections. When I turned 18 and my junior permit became a full license, there was still no requirement to allow entry for inspections. Therefore, I don't think you understand what I'm saying my friend.[/quote]

Sure mate, I see where you are coming from. No offence intended, I just didn't understand the background to your comments.
There was a time when you didn’t have to show 100 points of ID to open an account; you could get away with drink driving because there was no RBT; you didn’t need a boat licence etc.
Laws change. Are they reasonable changes to the way that we live or are they simply an erosion of our civil freedoms? I think you could put forward a case for both points of view

[Ariat]

Use your horn to 'toot toot' goodbye to someone - technically illegal...

Uh oh. I must have a few life sentences waiting for me already then

[lenners]

The copper rang me up this arvo (sunday) to ask me where I am as he was knocking on my door for a surprise inspection. I was out at the time but I am unimpressed with his warrant-less entry of my property. I love living in the communist utopian state known as victoria.

[wade06]

Pretty sure police don't need a warrant to inspect your gun safe. If guns and ammo are stored properly there is no issue.

Car licences come with rules to follow... Same with guns. I don't agree with all of them but generally they are ok.

[doc]

I believe that our laws allow anyone an implied right to come onto your property and up to your door. No warrant required, because everyone holds that right. That right can be revoked by you upon contact. (ie, asking the person to leave your property). I also believe that this right is also revoked for door to door salesmen if you have a sign up there saying no salesmen, etc.

I haven't got the time to go searching at the moment, but if you think it about it, it makes sense. How else is someone supposed to deliver a parcel, deliver pizza, or otherwise contact you in person if you're in your dwelling.

As such - the police officer was well within their rights to knock on your front door without a warrant - for any reason - whether you're a firearm owner, or not, just like anyone else is. It is then your right to ask them to leave if you choose to.

I agree that 'surprise inspections' are pathetic, and I can't imagine what they would prove. If there's a gun missing from your safe because you've loaned it, you simply tell them who has it. If there's a gun out at the time, and you're cleaning it - it's my understanding this is legal too - so I don't know what would be achieved by a surprise inspection.

I suspect that surprise inspections are more about police who find themselves with a quiet shift and time to kill so they fill in their job sheet with inspections to show they've been still working.

[MR. WINCHESTER]

I'm pretty sure ( has been highlighted HERE before ) that within the regulations ( N.S.W. ) 'safe storage' inspections, are to be carried out at a MUTUALLY AGREED TIME.

[happyhunter]

The copper rang me up this arvo (sunday) to ask me where I am as he was knocking on my door for a surprise inspection. I was out at the time but I am unimpressed with his warrant-less entry of my property. I love living in the communist utopian state known as victoria.

Yeah, that's their recently adopted policy. It borders on being raided.

[<<Genesis93>>]

I'm pretty sure ( has been highlighted HERE before ) that within the regulations ( N.S.W. ) 'safe storage' inspections, are to be carried out at a MUTUALLY AGREED TIME.

I've mentioned the Victorian example, whereby I found myself at a loss to find ANY reference to ANY provision that suggests the police can knock on your door at any 'convenient' time demanding to inspect your storage....

So please, for the benefit of New South Welshmen, drop in the particular Regulation or Section of the Act that suggests Police may conduct a storage inspection....

The Victorian example suggests that the 'firearms' must be produced on demand, not the 'storage'.

I suspect those who 'crafted' these POS of gun laws kind of had an idea that including a law that allowed Police (or other delegate of the Commish) to demand entry to your home, without suspicion of a crime, brush past your family sitting at the dinner table at 6pm to stick their nose in your back room....... was a stretch of 'legality'........ hence there is a 'law' to 'produce' the firearm, not the steel or timber storage cabinet.
At least that's my take.


Trouble is most shooters have grown accustomed to this as they feel its ok as a condition of the licence, a little price to pay, but significant, considering there is not a suspicion that you've done anything wrong...plus, a couple of burly uniforms at the door has most complying quickly. Intimidation is a well used tool of the popo.

[VICHunter]

The copper rang me up this arvo (sunday) to ask me where I am as he was knocking on my door for a surprise inspection. I was out at the time but I am unimpressed with his warrant-less entry of my property. I love living in the communist utopian state known as victoria.

Pretty sure police don't need a warrant to inspect your gun safe.

They don't need a "warrant" because you agreed to allow inspections when you obtained your license.

I'm not saying I love the inspections but painting this picture of warrantless raids is being pointlessly dramatic (and false anyway).

We all agreed to inspections, we knew they were coming, so you can hardly be shocked and outraged when one does

But that doesn't mean you're at their beck and call every moment of the day.

It is a condition of all firearm licences that the holder of the licence must permit a member of police to inspect their storage arrangements at any reasonable time.

If the cop turns up on your doorstep unannounced and you're not home that's their problem.

"No, I'm not home. I won't be home until X time, you're welcome to return then. Otherwise I will be home on day X, Y or Z."

Easy.

[happyhunter]

They don't need a "warrant" because you agreed to allow inspections when you obtained your license.

Umm.. no. The conditions of having my already obtained decades ago license changed. I don't agree to inspections. Inspections are forced. Agreements are mutual.

Trouble is most shooters have grown accustomed to this as they feel its ok as a condition of the licence,

yep, they have been condistioned.

[d3driver]

Current (15th Feb 2017) Victorian information relating to the OP's question:
I sat my FSC a couple of months ago, and the local DFO gave us a specific example of an inspection where the Licensed Owner was at work about 30 minutes away. The inspecting officer asked his wife if they could inspect the firearms while they were there so as to not inconvenience him by making him leave work. She went into the kitchen to the key rack, took a key down and handed it to the inspecting officer saying "I think it's this one...". She was not licensed and had access to the key. They confiscated all his firearms and revoked his license.

They can and do attempt to induce someone to gain unauthorised access to a locked safe. This is still going on. I personally have a key and combo safe. I carry the key, and no one else knows the 8 digit unique code. No one knows where the override key is. I think that this is the only way to be safe (pardon the pun).

Edited to be less generic with the word "entrapment"

[Download]

That's not entrapment.

Entrapment is where an officer encourages you to commit a crime you would not ordinarily commit. For example if an undercover officer tried to sell you stolen goods and you said yes, that would not be entrapment. But if an undercover officer tried to sell you stolen goods, you said no, and then the undercover officer said something like "please man, I need the money to pay for my mum's medical treatment" or "if i don't pay back this mob boss soon he'll kill me" and you said yes, that would be entrapment.

To claim entrapment you must prove first that you would not ordinarily have committed the crime.

[juststarting]

Okay, so wife would not ordinarily open the safe she is legally not authorised to do. And you would not ordinarily share the location of a key, which is easy to spot in a small house.

Smells like entrapment. She did the wrong thing. He did the wrong thing. But all in good nature and unknowingly to each other. Kinda classifies as entrapment by your definition. Methinks.

[d3driver]

I have edited my post to be more specific...

[juststarting]

BTW this is all theoretical, but an unlicensed person has no business in the safe. c*** move on police, but rules are clearly defined.

Also, funny story. Been told the same story when I did the course. Only guns were not confiscated and you should word your other half up... Interesting, more gentle approach. I.e. Do the right thing rather then the stick approach.

[Gwion]

Get your wife licenced: problem solved!

Also great for when you spot some critter in the paddock (cat) and know she will lose sight of it while you get the gun (yes, don't mention the war).

Much easier to say, "go get the 223, Honey", than it is to come back with the gun and say, "where the f*** is that cat, I thought you were watching it!!!"

Anyway..... I strongly feel that if you have the responsibility of firearms in the house then those sharing the house should also be well briefed on basic safety and law; even if they aren't licenced. This includes the, "you aren't to touch the keys or safe or allow ANYONE else to..... ESPECIALLY the Police!!!" Talk.

[d3driver]

Get your wife licenced: problem solved!

Also great for when you spot some critter in the paddock (cat) and know she will lose sight of it while you get the gun (yes, don't mention the war).

Much easier to say, "go get the 223, Honey", than it is to come back with the gun and say, "where the f*** is that cat, I thought you were watching it!!!"

Anyway..... I strongly feel that if you have the responsibility of firearms in the house then those sharing the house should also be well briefed on basic safety and law; even if they aren't licenced. This includes the, "you aren't to touch the keys or safe or allow ANYONE else to..... ESPECIALLY the Police!!!" Talk.

Unsure if that was directed at me, but in case it was... My wife is from just above Atlanta, Georgia. I probably don't need to say more hahaha

[Gwion]

Nah mate, just general comment and a bit of a whinge about my wife not being able to tell me where that bloody cat went!!!