2017 NFA is here - please read

News and events in the media and political arena relating to firearms.

Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by Gun-nut » 21 Feb 2017, 9:08 pm

bigM wrote:Mr Wilcher has acted in a number of firearms cases in NSW and interstate. He has a good understanding of the law and the politics behind it.I do not believe he has misinterpreted what has been written and already agreed between the states.

There is now some suggestion that a mistake has occurred in the production of the document which is exactly what I would be saying if I was a politician who had been caught out. We need to keep the pressure on until a 'corrected' document is published.


Hmmm a mistake in the document, I'm sure thats all it was, I'll sleep easy tonight then. :sarcasm: In all seriousness may I ask where you heard a politician make those claims. I'd like to read and/or watch what he/she has said.
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by bigM » 22 Feb 2017, 7:12 am

No formal statements yet. Just some verbal statements from NSW FAR. The 2017 NFA still stands in its current form.
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 22 Feb 2017, 7:32 am

So ON has removed their "keep gun laws as is".... line from their firearm policy.
Watch this space, if they take at 'worse' balance of power in QLD......

Let the games begin.....

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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by 1886 » 22 Feb 2017, 11:57 am

shouta wrote:All due respect but if it is a mistake as you mention then that is why a Barrister who specialises in Firearms Law needs to respond in great detail as anything missed will be pushed through. And if it's not a mistake then we are stuffed


I know what you are saying and I totally agree.

BUT this guy indicates he is a Barrister and contrary to your comment given his rant he does not give me the impression he is an expert on firearms legislation.

I will endeavour to spell it out.

His lengthy expose’ to Paul ? goes on about the words “World Championship” being left out of Para 7 otherwise many other current matches become illegal. He then goes to great lengths to indicate that these words need to be included in para7 OR include the matches by IPSC,NRA,Free Pistol and Service Pistol disciplines be included in 14(c) to make these matches legal.

FFS these are all covered in 14(a) and 14(b), which he has completely ignored.

14(c) is ONLY included as an exemption from the 14(b) restriction to not exceed 38 calibre for all disciplines EXCEPT Metallic Silhouette and Single Action who may use up to 45 calibre.

All this because he noted Para 7 makes mention that events must meet the conditions of para 14(c).

NO, wombat they must meet the conditions of Para 14, which includes a,b & c.

Ironically, he also seems to have missed that the old NFA actually restricted events to only those of Olympic Games, Commonwealth Games and World Championships status.

We all know many States have approved other uses not bound by these 3.

But the new NFA now says;

Para 7. “Jurisdictions will restrict the importation, possession and use of handguns for sporting purposes to individuals meeting recognised sporting shooter classifications in the Olympic and Commonwealth Games and for other accredited events that meet the conditions in paragraph 14(c)).”

Note the now inclusion of “other accredited events” which basically means it's now open ended and would also cover “world Championship” events that he makes his whole issue about.

There is nothing wrong with the general wording of the NFA in this regard. 14 (a) and 14(b) remain and covers all current club matches and now even allows for any others proposed. The club matches he states have NOT been removed in the new NFA.

"Sports shooters – handguns

(a) Sports shooters must have a valid membership with an approved club.

(b) Firearms permitted for acquisition, possession or use under this genuine reason are:
i. Category H – the firearm must be designed or adapted for competition target shooting, or must have a barrel length of at least 120mm for a semi-automatic handgun or 100mm for a revolver or a single shot handgun. If the firearm is fitted with a firearm magazine or cylinder, it must have a capacity of not more than 10 rounds. The calibre of the firearm must not exceed .38” (with the exception of cases listed under paragraph 14(c))."

The only problem is just a simple typo. In para 7 the (c) after 14 requires removal otherwise nothing makes sense and I suspect other jurisdictions may have now also noted this error as there is no reference made to satisfying the requirements of 14 (a) or (b) which STILL remain in the NFA. For him to suggest that all these and other club matches will now be banned is just lunacy.

He makes strong overtures that we need WW3 and all and sundry need to be contacted and brought aboard to fight this when there is virtually nothing to fight other than fix a simple typo.

I have no idea who Paul is but perhaps before this goes viral and we actually look like fools maybe the OP, bigM could pee in someones ear.
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by bigM » 22 Feb 2017, 12:29 pm

Paul is Paul Britton, owner of PBA Imports and Vice President NSW Firearms Dealers Association.
This was originally posted on the PBA facebook page - link already provided.

W J Wilcher is a barrister who specialises in firearms law.

Rant ? - he simply provides supporting references for all of his points.

!4 (a) refers only to being a member of a club
14 (b) makes no reference to match types.

Only 2 events are accredited events under 14 (c)

Perhaps you are not aware of the significant s/f in 1996 about IPSC and the only reason we can shoot it now is because of "World Championships"

This IS a significant issue.
We do have some breathing space until the states enact new firearms laws but left unchalleged this will effect us.


The only question is whether this is purposeful change or just a bureaucratic oversight.
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by 1886 » 22 Feb 2017, 1:34 pm

No offence bigM but you are missing the point and don’t seem to understand legislation :D.

Rant ? - he simply provides supporting references for all of his points.

But he’s gone off on a totally misinterpreted wild goose chase over what is just simply a small typo. There is no purposeful change or just a bureaucratic oversight, just a small typo requiring amendment.

This issue is basically about the use of handguns in various club matches.

Para 7 is what generically covers their use and I will quote it again BUT it requires the removal of (c) after 14. Matches do not have to be named individually and never have even in the 1996 NFA.

7. Jurisdictions will restrict the importation, possession and use of handguns for sporting purposes to individuals meeting recognised sporting shooter classifications in the Olympic and Commonwealth Games and for other accredited events that meet the conditions in paragraph 14(c)).

!4 (a) refers only to being a member of a club

Yep, that’s condition 1. Tell me how a sporting shooter can have a handgun without being a member of a club ?

14 (b) makes no reference to match types.

Huh, this condition is only to describe basic handgun requirements, ie no greater than 38 calibre with the specified barrel lengths. ALL various matches are covered under Para 7 providing they satisfy these conditions in Para14, ie you are a club member and any firearm must be as described and no greater than 38 calibre as per condition 14(b) EXCEPT for calibres as used in 14(c).

Only 2 events are accredited events under 14 (c)

This condition has nothing whatsoever to do about accrediting events. It is purely included as an exemption from the 38 calibre condition in 14(b) to allow these two disciplines to be able to use up to 45 calibre.

Any world championships will now be covered under “ and for other accredited events “ as will a host of others.
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by bigM » 22 Feb 2017, 1:39 pm

I am not a legal expert. W J Wilcher is.

Previously a number of events were covered under "World Championships". This has been removed.
Accredited events need to be included in the NFA and they are not.
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by Gwion » 22 Feb 2017, 1:56 pm

I'd hazard a guess that a specialist firearms barrister has more idea about how to interperate firearms legislation than anyone on this forum.

What 1886 is trying to pass off as an insignificant typo my well be that or it may be an "oh, no one will pick that up" typo that leaves a back door open to further restriction. Addressing the omission (purposeful or accidental) with sufficient weight is the only way to get it addressed.

The, "oh, it's just a typo, someone will pick it up and correct it eventually" attitude is a silly way to look at things. I certainly wouldn't want someone with that attitude representing my legal interests.
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by shouta » 22 Feb 2017, 2:44 pm

1886 the omission of World Championships is not minor. If anything it should include World Championships and other accredited events. By leaving it just as accredited events and not naming the events allows for them to be unaccredited quite easily.
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by Wylie27 » 22 Feb 2017, 2:45 pm

Paul Briton posted that is was a typo and the document will be amended..

https://www.facebook.com/pbaimportsau/p ... 5641403790
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by BluEsky » 22 Feb 2017, 10:25 pm

:wtf: :crazy: A Typo you say! I Don't believe that for a moment, :evil: What sort of Hicks are we being run by? to have to rewrite the BS so called agreement again, :o is this not an Insult to a million LFO's?

............. :roll:
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by brett1868 » 22 Feb 2017, 11:04 pm

@1886
I read it the same way as you mate and essentially nothing has really changed so long as the usual club (pistol) events remain "accredited". SASA / Metallic Silhouette have been the only "Good reason" to acquire both the High Caliber Permit and get PTA's approved. IPSC (NSW) is not approved for >38 but I'd like to see that changed to include the bigger calibers. The only point to clear up is the list of "accredited" events which is probably done under consultation with Pistol Australia & IPSC. I think Paul from PBA may have gone off half cocked...as for the Barrister I haven't read his rant so can't comment.

Am I qualified to respond....Probably not but I do hold PA Accreditation, IPSC Accreditation, Cat H, High Cal Commissioners permit and for a living I write detailed design documents for large scale IT infrastructure projects so I have a trained eye for detail :)

7. Jurisdictions will restrict the importation, possession and use of handguns for sporting purposes to individuals meeting recognised sporting shooter classifications in the Olympic and Commonwealth Games and for other accredited events that meet the conditions in paragraph 14(b)(i)."

14. Sports shooters – handguns
(a) Sports shooters must have a valid membership with an approved club.

(b) Firearms permitted for acquisition, possession or use under this genuine reason are:
i. Category H – the firearm must be designed or adapted for competition target shooting, or must have a barrel length of at least 120mm for a semi-automatic handgun or 100mm for a revolver or a single shot handgun. If the firearm is fitted with a firearm magazine or cylinder, it must have a capacity of not more than 10 rounds. The calibre of the firearm must not exceed .38” (with the exception of cases listed under paragraph 14(c)).

(c) Handguns with a calibre greater than .38” but no greater than .45” are permitted only where shooters are competing in the two accredited events known as Metallic Silhouette and Single (Western) Action.

7. Essentially says you cant import a pistol unless it complies with section 14 i ....cool :)
14. Says I can have a pistol if I'm a member of an approved club shooting in an accredited event and it's <38 UNLESS I hold a high Cal permit in which case I can have up to .45 for SASA or MS only.

Simples....Current state = proposed state but I'd still like to see a list of accredited events.
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by bullet » 23 Feb 2017, 12:04 am

brett1868 you're spot on ... seems the version SSAA distributed was an earlier version as the current version on https://www.ag.gov.au/CrimeAndCorruptio ... eement.pdf
Now clearly states paragraph 14(b)(i).

Crisis averted! *phew*
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by brett1868 » 23 Feb 2017, 7:08 am

bullet wrote:brett1868 you're spot on ... seems the version SSAA distributed was an earlier version as the current version on https://www.ag.gov.au/CrimeAndCorruptio ... eement.pdf
Now clearly states paragraph 14(b)(i).

Crisis averted! *phew*


Credit where credit is due, 1886 nailed it perfectly, I just added a couple cents. I did post on Farcebook in reply to Paul's (PBA) comments but no replies. Seems this forum has a more intelligent readership.
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by BluEsky » 23 Feb 2017, 7:31 am

brett1868 wrote:
bullet wrote:brett1868 you're spot on ... seems the version SSAA distributed was an earlier version as the current version on https://www.ag.gov.au/CrimeAndCorruptio ... eement.pdf
Now clearly states paragraph 14(b)(i).

Crisis averted! *phew*


Credit where credit is due, 1886 nailed it perfectly, I just added a couple cents. I did post on Farcebook in reply to Paul's (PBA) comments but no replies. Seems this forum has a more intelligent readership.


When did the SSAA release any " Version " of the NFA? it is a Government document and only comes from the Gov. official site! :? I think you will find that the Government '"Error" was quickly rectified Yesterday 22/2/17 after it was pointed out to them by all the Shooting Bodies!! :shock: And the Crisis is Far from averted! ;)
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by Wylie27 » 23 Feb 2017, 7:48 am

The error was in the latest version and after being contacted by several sources it was recitifed.

Bluesky if you think governments don't make errors in documents then you are living in lalaland.... having spent many years work for or with govt entities both state and federal I can tell you that there policy documents can be more confusing and contradicting than the bible.

Working for a large outsourcer and supporting a large federal govt department, the Feds forgot to include backups and restores in their tender... for 7 years every backup and restore completed by my team was a project and charged at project rates...
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by BluEsky » 23 Feb 2017, 8:12 am

Wylie27 wrote:The error was in the latest version and after being contacted by several sources it was recitifed.

Bluesky if you think governments don't make errors in documents then you are living in lalaland.... having spent many years work for or with govt entities both state and federal I can tell you that there policy documents can be more confusing and contradicting than the bible.

Working for a large outsourcer and supporting a large federal govt department, the Feds forgot to include backups and restores in their tender... for 7 years every backup and restore completed by my team was a project and charged at project rates...


I have No illusion that the Government does not make errors, it is shown up every Day and they are never taken to account for it, and / or it gets glossed over, to accept a lesser standard in this instance, when LFO's are Crucified for the smallest infraction of The Regulations is Not an option! Why would any LFO' defend the Liberal Gov?. :o :shock:
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by bullet » 23 Feb 2017, 8:27 am

BluEsky wrote:
brett1868 wrote:
bullet wrote:brett1868 you're spot on ... seems the version SSAA distributed was an earlier version as the current version on https://www.ag.gov.au/CrimeAndCorruptio ... eement.pdf
Now clearly states paragraph 14(b)(i).

Crisis averted! *phew*


Credit where credit is due, 1886 nailed it perfectly, I just added a couple cents. I did post on Farcebook in reply to Paul's (PBA) comments but no replies. Seems this forum has a more intelligent readership.


When did the SSAA release any " Version " of the NFA? it is a Government document and only comes from the Gov. official site! :? I think you will find that the Government '"Error" was quickly rectified Yesterday 22/2/17 after it was pointed out to them by all the Shooting Bodies!! :shock: And the Crisis is Far from averted! ;)


SSAA Vic sent an email to all members with a link to the NFA, but it was a PDF hosted on their severs and turns out it was the one with the error.

Ahh and yes I do agree, still a crisis, just not as bad as it could have been...! I'm biased being a competitive pistol shooter who competes in many non Olympic / Commonwealth events.
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by brett1868 » 23 Feb 2017, 8:59 am

Ahh and yes I do agree, still a crisis, just not as bad as it could have been...! I'm biased being a competitive pistol shooter who competes in many non Olympic / Commonwealth events.


I'm also a pistol shooter, wether or not competitive is debatable cause some days I can't hit jack.
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by Wylie27 » 23 Feb 2017, 9:04 am

Some days? :lol:
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by BluEsky » 23 Feb 2017, 11:02 am

brett1868 wrote:
Ahh and yes I do agree, still a crisis, just not as bad as it could have been...! I'm biased being a competitive pistol shooter who competes in many non Olympic / Commonwealth events.


I'm also a pistol shooter, wether or not competitive is debatable cause some days I can't hit jack.



;) :D . Well if you have enough Cash I may be able to give you some Coaching ;) :D and it is probably just as well that you have not Hit Jack! :clap: :roll: :D

Can't beat a happy Shooter. 8-) :D .
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by brett1868 » 23 Feb 2017, 11:47 am

Wylie27 wrote:Some days? :lol:


Got you last comp, balanced out the whipping you gave me the comp before :)
ItsMe is improving each outing and once he gets his own pistol he'll be a real threat to those chickens.... :D
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by BluEsky » 23 Feb 2017, 12:22 pm

:? Well I am still not convinced ! ;) for I just looked at the SSAA National Web site and their slant on the matter is just the opposite of what you guys have been spouting! :o :shock:

Will try to put a link up :roll: ......https://ssaa.org.au/news-resources/poli ... nfa-review
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by Wylie27 » 23 Feb 2017, 12:27 pm

brett1868 wrote:
Wylie27 wrote:Some days? :lol:


Got you last comp, balanced out the whipping you gave me the comp before :)
ItsMe is improving each outing and once he gets his own pistol he'll be a real threat to those chickens.... :D

You bought a $3000 Ruger to beat me lol
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by brett1868 » 23 Feb 2017, 12:30 pm

BluEsky wrote::? Well I am still not convinced ! ;) for I just looked at the SSAA National Web site and their slant on the matter is just the opposite of what you guys have been spouting! :o :shock:

Will try to put a link up :roll: ......https://ssaa.org.au/news-resources/poli ... nfa-review


I think we're outta sync with the versions of the NFA. SSAA highlighted the problem and the edit has been made, it's this new version that myself and 1886 are basing our views on rather then the older now redundant version. The previous version was definitely a disaster for pistol shooters.
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by BluEsky » 23 Feb 2017, 2:01 pm

Queenslander!! :clap: Where have they all gone? they were once very vocal on the Forums 8-) :? What will they do now, for I am led to understand that the Historic use of Handguns by Farmers has been thrown out by COAG on the recommendation of WLB, and the basis and info is being questioned? There is a good article on it the Firearms Owners United site! ;) :crazy:

Well do you think they can use them without ammo, say like a Club? :o :shock: oh no that would be illegal ! :roll:

:crazy: :wtf: ..
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by Title_II » 23 Feb 2017, 7:17 pm

Wylie27 wrote:
brett1868 wrote:
Wylie27 wrote:Some days? :lol:


Got you last comp, balanced out the whipping you gave me the comp before :)
ItsMe is improving each outing and once he gets his own pistol he'll be a real threat to those chickens.... :D

You bought a $3000 Ruger to beat me lol


Ruger doesn't make anything worth $3,000 LOL

Are you mates racing?
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by brett1868 » 23 Feb 2017, 7:47 pm

Ruger doesn't make anything worth $3,000 LOL

Are you mates racing?


Wylie27 and I are mates and shoot together, he's just stirring me the bugger. It's not a Ruger but a improved version of their design made in the U.S of Aye by Volquartsen. They call it the 1911 Style Scorpion but I call it the "Chicken Smasher" :D
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by 1886 » 23 Feb 2017, 10:18 pm

="brett1868………… it's this new version that myself and 1886 are basing our views on rather than the older now redundant version. The previous version was definitely a disaster for pistol shooters.

Mate, I was commenting on the version that indicated 14(c) under para 7, which was totally wrong and as mentioned being a possible simple typo. I now note it has been amended in the latest version to 14(b)(i). Ironic that my Barrister friend said it should be 14(c) :D

="shouta" 1886 the omission of World Championships is not minor. If anything it should include World Championships and other accredited events. By leaving it just as accredited events and not naming the events allows for them to be unaccredited quite easily.

Even though the words “ and other accredited events” would cover other matches I see where you are coming from.

As “World Championships” is incorporated under the longarms provisions, ie Para 13(a) then if this wording was a major issue relating to IPSC in Australia as bigM has also indicated then I am surprised that SSAA has not queried its omission but "and other accredited events" also needs to remain.

="brett1868......................but I'd still like to see a list of accredited events.

No guys the last thing you want. If specific matches are listed then they are the only ones that become gospel and no others can be considered etc and good luck getting States to amend Regs or their Act accordingly.

Accreditation is not by Police. Besides Olympics, Commonwealth Games and World Championships accredited matches, governing bodies such as your local SSAA could accredit other matches.

Given this I still have some concerns as Cat A, B and C long arms under Para 13(a) unlike Para 7 doesn’t have the words “and for other accredited matches” along with Cat C shotguns being restricted to Clay target shooters only, 13 (b)(iii). I have no idea whether SSAA are working on this but probably not :D

HOWEVER, notwithstanding the above it still has to be remembered that the NFA is NOT law only and agreement but one would assume it should be correct :D. All States and Territories are free to ignore what they wish and do, or go even further etc as we all know.
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Re: 2017 NFA is here - please read

Post by BluEsky » 24 Feb 2017, 9:14 am

brett1868 wrote:
Ruger doesn't make anything worth $3,000 LOL

Are you mates racing?


Wylie27 and I are mates and shoot together, he's just stirring me the bugger. It's not a Ruger but a improved version of their design made in the U.S of Aye by Volquartsen. They call it the 1911 Style Scorpion but I call it the "Chicken Smasher" :D


:D How is the arthritis in the typing hand ? LOL :? :D

:D ;) ..
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