The Ammo Bill

[Gamerancher]

I've purchased up to 10000 rounds of .22 ammo a year at various gun shops and never had to show rego papers. Yes, that includes varieties labelled as .22 pistol. Some of it actually performs very well in my rifles.
I've also purchased factory loaded .45 long colt ammo without having to show rego papers.

[BluEsky]

Hey BluEsky,

how about you try typing an actual sentence instead of emoticons and someone else's pictures. You seem to want to draw some attention to this issue and there's no better way than to put some intelligent thoughts down in your own words

Chronos

How about you keep your advice to yourself as it has been found that it can not be relied upon!
Do you Get the Picture!

[Wylie27]

Perhaps bluesky can change the title of this thread to NSW Ammo bill or something...

It has NOTHING to do with the type of round in NSW. It can be labelled .22lr rifle and if you hand over your cat H licence they ask for the rego papers..

It's nothing to do with quantity, the NFA or anything else it was Mr Unsworth came up with while sipping on his bottle of Grange in an to attempt at looking to do something with all the bikie shootings etc

NSW shooters have to provide a drivers licence when buying ammunition and every purchase is recorded.. if it is for a pistol then you can only buy factory ammo for the pistols registered to you.. eg I own a 22 pistol I cannot purchase 9mm ammo...

[Gamerancher]

My point being you can buy pistol ammo without having a registered pistol. BTW it's your firearms licence that you have to show.
Whylie27, if you only have a Cat H licence it is the case that you have to prove you have the handgun that the ammo fits.
Not so with Cat A/B. There are plenty of rifles that take "pistol" ammo, think lever-guns.
And yes, I don't like the fact that we have to give over our address details to buy ammo and powder either.
The SFFP shot themselves in the ar$e over the shooting in national parks policy they tried to push, they have been lame ducks ever since.
Useless pr*cks are just sitting back waiting on the parliamentary pension to start when they get kicked out.

[Wylie27]

Ffs....

You aren't understanding.. if when buying a .22lr and they say rifle or pistol and you say pistol, you then need to show your firearms licence, drivers licence and the god damned registration papers for the calibre you own.

I don't see how this is so hard for you to understand..

I want 9mm, I go to gun shop, firearms licence, drivers licence and pistol rego papers please...

I am fortunate that I have cat a and b, and if I want 22 I just say rifle.. then I have to show drivers licence and firearms licence.

If you are in NSW and not doing this then your dealer is in breach or fire arm regulations and will go the way of the stockade in Terrey hills..

[Gamerancher]

What the f#ck are you on about!
What is it that you don't understand.
We both agree that if you say it is for a pistol, you have to show rego cert for that pistol.
If you don't say it is for a pistol, you don't have to show them rego papers. Agreed?
The point I'm trying to make is that there are plenty of rifles in pistol calibres for which I have never been asked for rego papers. I can buy .22LR, .44mag, .32-20, .45 long colt which I don't own pistols for without any of the crap about rego papers.
I don't know where you get your ammo but I've never had to show my drivers licence.
Maybe they are just a bit more pedantic in the city?
Maybe it's just when you are buying up in calibres that the Lebanese bikies/drug lords like?

[duncan61]

If your well known at the dealers that will make a difference.I bought out the last of their stock of lead 45 calibre projectiles and had no 45 cal on my licence.We have a photo red card which you produce but there is no address

[BluEsky]

Perhaps bluesky can change the title of this thread to NSW Ammo bill or something...

It has NOTHING to do with the type of round in NSW. It can be labelled .22lr rifle and if you hand over your cat H licence they ask for the rego papers..

It's nothing to do with quantity, the NFA or anything else it was Mr Unsworth came up with while sipping on his bottle of Grange in an to attempt at looking to do something with all the bikie shootings etc

NSW shooters have to provide a drivers licence when buying ammunition and every purchase is recorded.. if it is for a pistol then you can only buy factory ammo for the pistols registered to you.. eg I own a 22 pistol I cannot purchase 9mm ammo...

Ill just fix that small typo for you.

[bladeracer]

If your well known at the dealers that will make a difference.I bought out the last of their stock of lead 45 calibre projectiles and had no 45 cal on my licence.We have a photo red card which you produce but there is no address

You don't need any kind of licence to buy bullets though do you...oh....just realised you're talking about WA where a bullet is considered "ammunition".
However, in WA it is illegal to possess ammunition for a firearm you don't own...or have they changed that recently? That includes bullets and brass under WA law.

[Title_II]

Ffs....

You aren't understanding.. if when buying a .22lr and they say rifle or pistol and you say pistol, you then need to show your firearms licence, drivers licence and the god damned registration papers for the calibre you own.

I don't see how this is so hard for you to understand..

I want 9mm, I go to gun shop, firearms licence, drivers licence and pistol rego papers please...

I am fortunate that I have cat a and b, and if I want 22 I just say rifle.. then I have to show drivers licence and firearms licence.

If you are in NSW and not doing this then your dealer is in breach or fire arm regulations and will go the way of the stockade in Terrey hills..

This is hilarious!

There are parallels in the US.

You don't need to buy ammo from any licensed person. Understand that our regulations are generally on federally licensed dealers, not on gun owners. It's kind of the opposite of what you have. That being said, most of us end up buying ammo from licensed dealers at stores such as Walmart or whatever, mostly over the internet. And they are only supposed to sell pistol ammo to people of the age of 21. A 7 year old can buy pistol ammo, but a licensed dealer cannot sell it too him or her.

Background over, here is the funny part. Twice at Walmart (out of scores of times) I had some dumb, pimply kid/sheila ring up my 9mm or .22. Their screen comes up (just like in OZ I suppose), "Is this for a rifle or a handgun?"

Title: "It's for a machinegun."

Confused 18 year old has finger hovering over the register, looking at the display, looks at me, looks back, and hits the "make him go away" button and completes the sale

[Gamerancher]

Best score ever with pimply faced cash register attendant was a mate who inquired at a largish gun shop about how much a "brick" of RWS R100 was. After some fiddling on the computer and using the scanner, pimply faced kid replies "$45". "That's for the brick says my mate?" Yes, comes the reply, he buys a case and walks out.(quickly)

[duncan61]

Blade.When I had a dedicated loading shed at the dairy farm I had as many chamberings as I could find from cat shot 22 which as you probably know is a short case with a ball bearing and the primer through to 458 lott and .416 Rigby but they were all empty with no primer I had them on the shelf in size order as my own collection.If a police officer had a problem with this too bad.I will stand up for my self.The police charge the court passes judgement.The courts would laugh at any one having a problem with ornamental ammo.At the time I had .222 12g and 17HMR.Some people wear a necklace with a bullet on it.Who cares its got a hole through it.So bottom line having live ammo you are not licenced for could be a problem but dud stuff should not cause any concern

[brett1868]

The whole ammo thing is an exercise in demonstrating just how retarded a government can get. I can only comment on the NSW laws and just to clarify a few points of view...

You can purchase any ammunition you like on a Cat A, B license providing that it's not generally used only in handguns. This is why a Cat A,B license holder can purchase .357 Mag because it's very commonly chambered in lever actions, same goes for may other calibers. The motivation behind this act of intense stupidity was to add a means for police to trace ammunition from import through to end user in order to investigate crime but fails miserably and has never assisted in a single arrest.
The weird bit is that I have not been able to find a list of "Generally used only in handguns" cartridges so there's a hole in the legislation that's open to interpretation.

Dealer Recording
If you're a regular customer at the gun shop and the staff know you then they may not ask for your license when purchasing ammunition although they are legally obligated to sight it. By not sighting it doesn't mean the transaction isn't recorded because the POS system will already have your details and that sale can be tracked to you. HPGS always ask for my license and I know those guys quite well as do St Mary's despite me almost living there, as it's not worth risking their license over non compliance for a $5 box of 22LR.

Record Keeping
A book based register printed by Zions Systems with a reference of FAR A1 must be completed for each purchase or sale though a dealer can use any other means to record the required information providing it's kept secured and separate from any firearms or ammunition and contains all the details as per the paper version. Records must be kept for a minimum of 3 years from the date of the last entry.

A quote from the instructions page
"If the ammunition sold is generally used only in handguns, OR if the buyer holds a category H license only, the registration number of the firearm or the PTA number must be entered in the appropriate fields".


An example from personal experience.
I went to shoot in a competition at St Mary's and usually I get there early for some practise stirring up Wylie27 and shooting. Last rimfire competition I tried to purchase some CCI 22LR from the counter to see if it shot better then the Lapua I brought with me but since I was there on a pistol shoot with a 22 pistol they requested the rego papers for the pistol, which I didn't have even though I hold Cat A,B,G,H license. Thankfully I also hold a Ammunition Purchase & Sell Permit which I did have on me and purchased the ammunition under that permit. When I got home I had to book that box of ammo into my register as a purchase then book it out as a sale....to myself. WOFTAM !!

Another problem in the making...
According to the legislation relating to my collectors license (Cat G) I am not permitted to possess ammunition of a calibre matching a pistol in my collection. I'm going to speak to the registry on this one cause it's plain stupid, if I have a 9mm on my cat H and ammo then I can't technically have a 9mm pistol on my Cat G. I may have missed something in the legislation but this is my understanding of what's written.

Selling ammunition
Without a Dealers License or Ammunition Purchase & Sell permit you cannot legally sell ammunition in NSW. I load commercially for several people and supply some niche rounds to shops so I jumped through the hoops and convinced the registry to grant me a permit. Under this permit I can legally purchase and sell just about any ammunition I like

Assembling Ammunition
Whilst Joe Adler cannot legally purchase 9mm for his illegally imported ceramic x-ray defeating high powered "Glock" that's made by Beretta and to the educated is a 92FS, he can however purchase all the necessary tools and materials to assemble his own using only his Cat A license (Powder & Primers). He can legally possess all this and only breaks the law once he seats the first projectile.

A heads up on personal attacks on other members, the mods take a dim view of it so play nice fellas

[duncan61]

Thank you for sharing Brett.I am impressed you can commercially load for customers and have a permit to do so.So you can make anything you like and say its for a customer.I am totally with you on it not getting petty and personal.I get the impression that a lot of souls on this forum are not young.

[Gamerancher]

I think the whole problem may be with the anally retentive staff and rules at St Marys. This is probably due to the larger idiot factor they have to deal with in the high volume of people that attend there. We have all seen them, the ones who you quietly move away from and shake your head at while thinking ," this bloke should not have a licence". I'm sure you have seen them Brett, I think you posted a story about one on here.
The problem is with different interpretations of the laws. Just because one place has the strictest interpretations doesn't make it the law. A bit like pistol clubs that double the requirements for attendances to qualify at their club, that is not the law.

[bladeracer]

Blade.When I had a dedicated loading shed at the dairy farm I had as many chamberings as I could find from cat shot 22 which as you probably know is a short case with a ball bearing and the primer through to 458 lott and .416 Rigby but they were all empty with no primer I had them on the shelf in size order as my own collection.If a police officer had a problem with this too bad.I will stand up for my self.The police charge the court passes judgement.The courts would laugh at any one having a problem with ornamental ammo.At the time I had .222 12g and 17HMR.Some people wear a necklace with a bullet on it.Who cares its got a hole through it.So bottom line having live ammo you are not licenced for could be a problem but dud stuff should not cause any concern

I agree absolutely, it shouldn't be of any interest to anybody...but it is the law, and is it worth carrying a key fob made from an empty case or fired bullet when you risk losing your firearms and licence if you meet the wrong LEO? A case with a hole drilled through it to identify it as inert is fine as far as I'm aware, although I don't know where the law stands on having a bullet stuck in the end of it.

[duncan61]

I would have my day in court if it became an issue.My buddy has naval projectiles from his job clearing land at a naval firing range that is now housing estate.I no longer have a display but if I dug through my gear I would find all sorts of things.Curious I have never had one but would you have to open your safe if requested by police.I would say why.They are there to check you have a compliant safe not see if the door works.

[Gamerancher]

Duncan, in NSW, when they do a safe storage inspection they usually do an audit of your firearms. They check them against their records, which are usually wrong.
In the last three inspections I've had, they had no record of a couple of guns that I'd had for years, still had me listed as owning a rifle I'd sold two years prior and had not had updates on rifles that had been re-barreled in a different chambering. Also, they were not interested in the "extra" guns that were in my safe, 3 of my wife's and one belonging to a mate.

[duncan61]

O.K. That sounds comprehensive.Do you get a time frame and appointment or do they randomly turn up

[Gamerancher]

I've only been contacted once prior to inspection. Last one was a knock on the door at 6.00am. Highway patrol copper doing the farms around town, he must have been bored. Quizzed me as to why I needed "so many guns?" to which I replied that most of them were for silhouette, that there were 11 different matches, each requiring a different rifle and that my wife and son also shot, that covered 33 of them. Showed him the trophy cabinet and told him that I also hunted he backed down and changed his tune. Basically left with his tail between his legs.

[duncan61]

You can stand up to authority.I heard through the grapevine that the local cops strip searched some of the young guys in town on the main HWY,I went to the station and chatted them about it.Fair enough we were in the same tennis club.Their people too

[Ratsmitglied]

Interesting. All the things I've read say that according to section 19 (c) inspections have to be organized at a mutually agreed time...

[Gamerancher]

Yeah, but when they are standing at your door and have an attitude already, the last thing I want to do is piss them off. I also go above and beyond on my storage, I've got too much invested not to, so I have no worries about being "caught out". We had a local dealer that had a flooding incident in his storage. He had all of the firearms in his possession layed out around his house drying, being cleaned and oiled up. A visit by the wallopers and he was in deep Sh*t. 6 years later he is still fighting in the courts to get his licences and firearms back. The Steve Lee incident, ( he lives locally ) didn't help with the attitude of the local constabulary.

[Ratsmitglied]

I don't blame you on that at all, Completely understand not wanting to to piss them off when they're obviously looking for an excuse to cause you trouble.

Especially if you have had previous incidents locally.

[Title_II]

This makes me very angry.

[Gamerancher]

Go and empty a few mags through one of your machine-guns. That will make you feel better.

[duncan61]

The smell of burnt propellant should calm you down

[on_one_wheel]

Can you use "no fixed address" as your address when purchasing ammo ?
I sure would.