Hey want to see how a police state starts?

News and events in the media and political arena relating to firearms.

Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by LurchUSA » 09 Jun 2017, 4:38 am

Just watch this:

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/shoottokill-police-get-new-powers-to-combat-cowardly-evil-acts/news-story/7b5c3a48c0705b4222e82a0072c068a6

Remember little Johnny Coward's "gun buy-back" in 1996?

So now you have a largely dis-armed population, who are now being policed by law enforcement who just got new ‘shoot-to-kill’ powers against terrorists to combat ‘cowardly, evil acts’.

It's not hard to see these new powers being extended to pretty much any form of tyrannical control, by the government! Where by simple things like speaking out against politicians or protesting is conventionally classified as a "cowardly, evil act."

THIS is why we have the 2nd amendment in the USA!

Australia has NO constitution, so you all are at the mercy of the future tyrants... er, I mean... government.
LurchUSA
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 4
United States of America

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by bigfellascott » 09 Jun 2017, 6:10 am

Should I hide under the bed, build a bunker for nuclear fall out, some sort of fortified bunker with years of food supplies and ammo suitable to fight off world war 3 or do I just shoot myself and save all the bother?
User avatar
bigfellascott
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 5289
-

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Jun 2017, 6:22 am

We have a constitution that was adopted in 1901. Just not the same as yours.
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Ben78 » 09 Jun 2017, 7:50 am

LurchUSA wrote:J
Australia has NO constitution, so you all are at the mercy of the future tyrants... er, I mean... government.


We have a constitution, its a bill of rights that we don't have. I heard John Howard say in a interview that he was 'glad' we didn't have a bill of rights.

I was also concerned when I heard of the new shoot-to-kill rules... each time you add to the controls the government can have you step closer and closer to tyrannical authoritarianism.
Ben78
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 35
New South Wales

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Archie » 09 Jun 2017, 8:01 am

Utter garbage. All the law does it make it clear to the cop who has to pull the trigger, he isn't going to be on trial for murder for shooting a terrrorist before the terrorist kills a hostage.

And if you want a really clear distinction between Australia and the US, consider this - we've just had to put a law in place because our police chose not to shoot someone when they should have.
Archie
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 366
New South Wales

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Daddybang » 09 Jun 2017, 8:09 am

The coppers already have shoot to kill powers for the preservation of life but they have to prove the threat was real and immediate. That's why they didn't shoot at the lindt cafe earlier on when the snipers had a clear shot. Under the new proposal monis would be shot the second a terrorist attack is declared. Imo a much better outcome than the way it actually went down. :thumbsup:
This hard living ain't as easy as it used to be!!!
Daddybang
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2012
Queensland

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by happyhunter » 09 Jun 2017, 8:17 am

Mr Barnes found snipers had a 10-minute window during which they could have taken a “kill shot” at terrorist Monis but they doubted their legal power to use lethal force as well as having concerns a visible head belonged to the gunman.

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act ... 0072c068a6

So they didn't take the shot because they were not certain the visible head belonged to the gunman. That has nothing to do with fear of prosecution for killing the bad guy. They feared the blow back of killing a hostage by mistake, which they did anyway.
happyhunter
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1303
Other

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by pete1 » 09 Jun 2017, 8:23 am

Yeh don't forget when they they changed the protest laws so its harder to protest.
We've had years of some parties trying to bring in employment laws that would alow employers to sack you for what ever reason you want.

They don't give a s**t about us they only care about getting votes, power, getting paid there $200,000+ a year and helping there mates.

The truth is they have no idea of how to fix problems besides from put a law on it or tax it. Sometimes you need to think outside the box.
22LR
223
308
12G
12G
12G
User avatar
pete1
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 390
Victoria

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Daddybang » 09 Jun 2017, 8:40 am

happyhunter wrote:
Mr Barnes found snipers had a 10-minute window during which they could have taken a “kill shot” at terrorist Monis but they doubted their legal power to use lethal force as well as having concerns a visible head belonged to the gunman.

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act ... 0072c068a6

So they didn't take the shot because they were not certain the visible head belonged to the gunman. That has nothing to do with fear of prosecution for killing the bad guy. They feared the blow back of killing a hostage by mistake, which they did anyway.


They doubted they had the legal authority to use lethal force
As for not knowing who the head belonged to I'm fairly certain monis was the only one wearing a green jihadi bandanna. (Not having a go just putting out another point of view) :thumbsup:
This hard living ain't as easy as it used to be!!!
Daddybang
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2012
Queensland

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by wrenchman » 09 Jun 2017, 9:07 am

if they have to shoot i hope its to kill
wrenchman
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1345
United States of America

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Gwion » 09 Jun 2017, 9:30 am

It would be interesting to see what the stipulations are in regard to what constitutes a "terrorist attack".

Realistically, this makes no difference in how police approach the actual shooting. They already "shoot to kill", as they are "trained" to fire on center of visible body mass. What it will affect is how they are investigated or liable for prosecution after the fact and, ergo, how their protocols and personal decision making allow for the taking of the shot in a "terrorist" situation.

The important thing to consider is how they define "terrorist", "attack" or "situation".
User avatar
Gwion
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3978
-

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Daddybang » 09 Jun 2017, 9:50 am

Crim yells aloha snackbar -terrorist
Crim yells I hate pigs - no terrorist
Hell of a Grey area in between :unknown:
This hard living ain't as easy as it used to be!!!
Daddybang
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2012
Queensland

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Osty » 09 Jun 2017, 11:07 am

LurchUSA wrote:Australia has NO constitution, so you all are at the mercy of the future tyrants... er, I mean... government.


Australia has a constitution, like pretty much every other country in the world. You can read it here if you like. Part of it's purpose is to put in place the checks and balances required to prevent tyrannical government. After 116 years of peaceful power transitions you'd think it's done a reasonable job.
Osty
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 12
Tasmania

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by juststarting » 09 Jun 2017, 11:22 am

Daddybang wrote:Crim yells aloha snackbar -terrorist
Crim yells I hate pigs - no terrorist
Hell of a Grey area in between :unknown:


In VIC crim yells... Pew pew pew pew pew follows. Lol
---
https://reloadingstudio.com
User avatar
juststarting
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 2738
Victoria

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Jun 2017, 11:28 am

Daddybang wrote:The coppers already have shoot to kill powers for the preservation of life but they have to prove the threat was real and immediate. That's why they didn't shoot at the lindt cafe earlier on when the snipers had a clear shot. Under the new proposal monis would be shot the second a terrorist attack is declared. Imo a much better outcome than the way it actually went down. :thumbsup:


Makes sense to me.
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Gwion » 09 Jun 2017, 11:36 am

juststarting wrote:
Daddybang wrote:Crim yells aloha snackbar -terrorist
Crim yells I hate pigs - no terrorist
Hell of a Grey area in between :unknown:


In VIC crim yells... Pew pew pew pew pew follows. Lol



Haha...

Yep. VicPol have never had much in the way of qualms when it comes to shooting to kill. It's kind'a a proud tradition. :lol: :wtf: :problem:
User avatar
Gwion
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3978
-

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Daddybang » 09 Jun 2017, 11:43 am

juststarting wrote:
Daddybang wrote:Crim yells aloha snackbar -terrorist
Crim yells I hate pigs - no terrorist
Hell of a Grey area in between :unknown:


In VIC crim yells... Pew pew pew pew pew follows. Lol


Hahaha :thumbsup: :drinks:
This hard living ain't as easy as it used to be!!!
Daddybang
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2012
Queensland

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jun 2017, 2:49 pm

pete1 wrote:Yeh don't forget when they they changed the protest laws so its harder to protest.
We've had years of some parties trying to bring in employment laws that would allow employers to sack you for what ever reason you want.



It should always be your prerogative whether somebody works for you or not.
As long as fair compensation is paid you should be allowed to sack whomever you want, whenever you want, for whatever reason you want.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12656
Victoria

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jun 2017, 2:58 pm

wrenchman wrote:if they have to shoot i hope its to kill



As far as I'm aware any situation calling for deadly force essentially requires shooting to kill. If you still have the option to shoot other than to kill the assailant then the situation probably doesn't call for deadly force.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12656
Victoria

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Peeds13 » 09 Jun 2017, 2:58 pm

It's terrible times we are living in, government is definitely getting more and more power and it seems the majority are more than happy to let it happen.
If people speed they can have their car confiscated, if people swear they can be arrested. Australia likes to be seen as a free country but it's far from it.
Peeds13
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Western Australia

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jun 2017, 3:10 pm

Peeds13 wrote:It's terrible times we are living in, government is definitely getting more and more power and it seems the majority are more than happy to let it happen.
If people speed they can have their car confiscated, if people swear they can be arrested. Australia likes to be seen as a free country but it's far from it.


I blame the universities - they just breed a bunch of anti's nowadays.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12656
Victoria

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Peeds13 » 09 Jun 2017, 3:43 pm

Yer id agree with that
Peeds13
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Western Australia

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Jun 2017, 5:18 pm

Gwion wrote:
juststarting wrote:
Daddybang wrote:Crim yells aloha snackbar -terrorist
Crim yells I hate pigs - no terrorist
Hell of a Grey area in between :unknown:


In VIC crim yells... Pew pew pew pew pew follows. Lol



Haha...

Yep. VicPol have never had much in the way of qualms when it comes to shooting to kill. It's kind'a a proud tradition. :lol: :wtf: :problem:


I have no problems if police shoot terrorist inorder to protect a citizen or them selves.

I do have issues where people are shot for less than life threatening situations. E. G just breaking in to your house. Therefore I'm not in favour of adopting laws similar to the USA.

And they are in no position to lecture is on gun laws given the very high rates of murders/shootings.

They need to have a good look at social welfare system in my view.

Having said that some of our gun laws are pretty stupid.

Just expressing an opinion.
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Ben78 » 09 Jun 2017, 6:09 pm

Peeds13 wrote:If people speed they can have their car confiscated.


How long before a speeding motorist is shot and the cop claims "I thought they were a terrorist" suddenly we have the USA problem of colours shooting first, asking questions later, and still getting off scott free, because now the law is on their side....
Ben78
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 35
New South Wales

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jun 2017, 6:31 pm

Ben78 wrote:
Peeds13 wrote:If people speed they can have their car confiscated.


How long before a speeding motorist is shot and the cop claims "I thought they were a terrorist" suddenly we have the USA problem of colours shooting first, asking questions later, and still getting off scott free, because now the law is on their side....



I would hope the first time such a thing occurs the officer spends a very, very long time in jail. I think we have sufficient checks to prevent this sort of thing. Even a known terrorist can't be shot under the new laws if he's not an immediate threat to somebody.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12656
Victoria

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jun 2017, 6:59 pm

sungazer wrote:In Vic we have had a number of people shot dead for really not life threatening circumstances. This was a while ago and since then the police have been given pepper spray. I still think though they could have shot some of those people in the leg as they were really close shots. Its not that hard to aim low. your training might have said otherwise but commonsense and being able to think for your self should be able to over ride that.



If you have enough time to take a non-lethal shot, why the hell are you shooting at them?
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12656
Victoria

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Cryptic » 09 Jun 2017, 8:40 pm

sungazer wrote:In Vic we have had a number of people shot dead for really not life threatening circumstances. This was a while ago and since then the police have been given pepper spray. I still think though they could have shot some of those people in the leg as they were really close shots. Its not that hard to aim low. your training might have said otherwise but commonsense and being able to think for your self should be able to over ride that.


If you have ever viewed or undertaken training in engagement be it military, police or even security you will understand that drawing the weapon in the 1st place is one of the last levels of defence therefore targeting a limb is not the outcome of use.
I was trained in a 5 levels of force escalation basis myself and if you were targeting a limb it would not be with a firearm.
Cryptic
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 276
Queensland

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Gwion » 10 Jun 2017, 12:23 am

bentaz wrote:
Gwion wrote:
juststarting wrote:
Daddybang wrote:Crim yells aloha snackbar -terrorist
Crim yells I hate pigs - no terrorist
Hell of a Grey area in between :unknown:


In VIC crim yells... Pew pew pew pew pew follows. Lol



Haha...

Yep. VicPol have never had much in the way of qualms when it comes to shooting to kill. It's kind'a a proud tradition. :lol: :wtf: :problem:

Not so much of shooting someone willing to shoot them, usually they just shoot crazy people with knives.


I get where you're coming from but deadly force is deadly force. There's not much more deadly than a knife in the hands of a nutter!

As for targeting a limb. Coppers are trained for centre of visible mass because less chance of missing and hitting an unintended target. So many real reasons they are trained that way, one of which being loss of fine motor skills under stress.

My joke about VicPol was from back in the 80's (and earlier) when their response to any armed threat was shoot 'em dead. I remember when I first moved to Melb and got back home from school to the whole area cordoned due to that hit man being shot by coppers in a flat in Carlton. It was about 50m from my place, just around the corner in Drummond St.
User avatar
Gwion
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3978
-

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Archie » 10 Jun 2017, 7:32 am

Ben78 wrote:
Peeds13 wrote:If people speed they can have their car confiscated.


How long before a speeding motorist is shot and the cop claims "I thought they were a terrorist" suddenly we have the USA problem of colours shooting first, asking questions later, and still getting off scott free, because now the law is on their side....


The new law requires the police commissioner to declare an incident a terrorist event, before they pull the trigger. If he hasn't done that, the laws are exactly the same as they are now. And I reckon he's a little busy to hang around with Highway patrol speed traps waiting to sign death warrants because someone's doing 10km over in a school zone. But don't let that get in the way of your paranoia.
Archie
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 366
New South Wales

Re: Hey want to see how a police state starts?

Post by Daddybang » 10 Jun 2017, 7:51 am

Archie wrote:
Ben78 wrote:
Peeds13 wrote:If people speed they can have their car confiscated.


How long before a speeding motorist is shot and the cop claims "I thought they were a terrorist" suddenly we have the USA problem of colours shooting first, asking questions later, and still getting off scott free, because now the law is on their side....


The new law requires the police commissioner to declare an incident a terrorist event, before they pull the trigger. If he hasn't done that, the laws are exactly the same as they are now. And I reckon he's a little busy to hang around with Highway patrol speed traps waiting to sign death warrants because someone's doing 10km over in a school zone. But don't let that get in the way of your paranoia.


That's correct, the proposed changes only affect situations such as the lindt café siege not general duties coppers or even incidents such as the siege in south qld just recently :thumbsup:
This hard living ain't as easy as it used to be!!!
Daddybang
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2012
Queensland

Next

Back to top
 
Return to Firearms related media and politics