Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Questions about Victorian gun and ammunition laws. Victorian Firearms Act 1996.

Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by hissandhum » 10 Jul 2017, 9:16 am

Good Morning,

Hope you're all getting off to a cracking start to your week. You can skip the next paragraph if you don't want details.

As for me, I'm looking down the barrel of an assault charge. A man came onto the train, wasted, and started spitting everywhere. I walked up to him to confront him about his behaviour, he raised his hands, so I raised mine held his hands so he wouldn't swing and pushed him down into his seat until the next stop. He broke free and went to the next carriage (easy to do on Melbourne trains) so I followed him to ensure he got off by pushing him out the doors. He didn't fall, he was uninjured and I waited for the police who were down the other end of the platform because I assumed that they would be thanking me. Unfortunately, a senior policeman decided that the fact that I followed him into the next carriage constituted Unlawful Assault, and despite the gentle protests of his subordinates, I'm off to court next month.


IN SHORT.
I was planning on applying for my A/B licence here in Victoria, but now I have Unlawful Assault charges pending, I am assuming that it is going to get in the way of a smooth application process.

My options are:

1. Push for a diversion, plead guilty (arrghhh) and get 'not recorded'. But I think you still have to say if you plead guilty to any charges on the application.
2. Fight it and risk being charged with Unlawful Assault.

My question is, how would either of these affect my chances of getting an A/B in Vicco?

I have no other criminal charges, and no history of violence at all. I'm in my thirties.

HH
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by Supaduke » 10 Jul 2017, 4:26 pm

Lawyer up, don't plead guilty. A charge will not hinder your license, only a conviction. Fighting charges does not make police push for a higher penalty. Pleading guilty only saves them time and money. You followed him to prevent him harassing/hurting someone else. A lawyer will cost money (sorry) but not as much as a conviction for assault will hinder the rest of your life. Fight it tooth and nail, don't cheap out on your defence lawyer. It's unfortunate you have been caught up in this , but for your sake don't lie down and cop an early plea cause its 'easier'. Doesn't seem like a serious event, a good lawyer should be able to negotiate a decent outcome.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by Dexer » 10 Jul 2017, 4:37 pm

If you're convicted of an indictable offence, you're barred for 12 months minimum but not always so for a summary offence. Read more here: http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.as ... t_ID=34427

Almost every case is different. Depends on charge level and any sentence outcome.

Tip: "Unlawful assault" is a summary offence.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by bladeracer » 10 Jul 2017, 5:02 pm

hissandhum wrote:Good Morning,

Hope you're all getting off to a cracking start to your week. You can skip the next paragraph if you don't want details.

As for me, I'm looking down the barrel of an assault charge. A man came onto the train, wasted, and started spitting everywhere. I walked up to him to confront him about his behaviour, he raised his hands, so I raised mine held his hands so he wouldn't swing and pushed him down into his seat until the next stop. He broke free and went to the next carriage (easy to do on Melbourne trains) so I followed him to ensure he got off by pushing him out the doors. He didn't fall, he was uninjured and I waited for the police who were down the other end of the platform because I assumed that they would be thanking me. Unfortunately, a senior policeman decided that the fact that I followed him into the next carriage constituted Unlawful Assault, and despite the gentle protests of his subordinates, I'm off to court next month.


IN SHORT.
I was planning on applying for my A/B licence here in Victoria, but now I have Unlawful Assault charges pending, I am assuming that it is going to get in the way of a smooth application process.

My options are:

1. Push for a diversion, plead guilty (arrghhh) and get 'not recorded'. But I think you still have to say if you plead guilty to any charges on the application.
2. Fight it and risk being charged with Unlawful Assault.

My question is, how would either of these affect my chances of getting an A/B in Vicco?

I have no other criminal charges, and no history of violence at all. I'm in my thirties.

HH


Was the other guy charged for anything? Were his details taken at least?
Get a good lawyer and do not plead guilty.
There are a couple of lawyers that specialise in firearms cases that should be able to explain how this might affect a licence application.
Ross Williamson is one.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by duncan61 » 10 Jul 2017, 6:31 pm

Do not plead guilty.I did it once to keep things simple and it backfired badly.You will have a hell time trying to get lawful ownership of a firearm.My buddy was charged with something similar years ago and I have his rifles on my licence and he went recently and they would not even look at his application.I have done the paperwork for co user but that could fail as well.If this event went down how you say it did go to the hearing plead not guilty then they will set a court date and explain your version.The police will then say they are still collecting evidence and drag this out for 2 years because they can.Make your firearm application before any of this happens and if you can get a reg 6 kangaroo licence and cull some roos somewhere.It is very difficult for even police to take your firearms if it is a way you make an income.Good luck .This is why we all look the other way or move seats when this sort of thing happens.I travel on public transport a lot and I have got off and got on the next train before just to keep out the situation
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by sbd3927 » 10 Jul 2017, 8:01 pm

Spitting everywhere... sounds like he spat on you, isn't that assault? I imagine that would affect the charge drastically, and I doubt any train footage could disprove spittle landed on you.
Ask the lawyer you engage, and best of luck.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by WatchyShooter » 10 Jul 2017, 11:28 pm

Just going to add that almost anything can be used to claim your not a fit and proper person, I almost didn’t get my A/B & H due to cannabis possession the day of my 18th, that was over 6 years ago.

Took an extra 4 months and multiple emails and letters to FAR basically pleading with them to not let the mistakes of a young idiot screw up a young mans chances of being licensed.

As others have said, I’d fight it, if other officers present seemed to not agree with the officer who charged you I’d fight it tooth and nail and get them involved, they are bound under oath to express their opinion and from the sounds of it you might have a good chance of their opinion siding with you.

Officers have been known to “overenforce” laws, and they get the book thrown at them when they do if someone makes a stink about it.

Worst thing you can do and what they expect you to do is roll over and take it, don’t do that.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by hissandhum » 11 Jul 2017, 10:06 am

Excellent advice. One thing I won't do is plead guilty to just go through with it, I'm figuring out what the smart footy is here though and there seems to be a third option:

I just spent some time on the phone with the prosecuting officer and he's going to run me through a diversion program that will have me as convicted, but not recorded. He's specifically said it won't show up on police checks, and will not inhibit my abilities to get an A/B. So that is tempting. As far as the other guy goes, I think he's getting charged with something to do with his behaviour, yes. Honestly, the guy is a huge pain. He didn't get harmed, and walked onto a train, wasted, spitting, swearing round kids and being generally hideous. He's an entitled little prick that thinks his 'rights' have been violated. If I'd walked onto a train in that state and started spitting, I'd kick my own arse. I'm sure he was taught in his gender studies class that my 'toxic masculinity' needs to be addressed, he's that type of dude. The cop I've been speaking to has apologised multiple times and recognises the lack of common sense being applied. So the diversion seems like an option that guarantees a good outcome, where as fighting it means there is a risk.

I just want to say, I've had a poke around the message board here and I can't wait to make some noob contributions and interact, it's an amazing source of information.

Thanks a million guys.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by Dexer » 11 Jul 2017, 10:15 am

According to the Vic Police website, a diversion order does not make you a prohibited person. So if you operate on that and the word of the police officer, firearms licensing shouldn't be an issue. But do seek legal counsel ;)
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by Dexer » 11 Jul 2017, 12:54 pm

That's true, especially where the conviction is domestic violence or firearms related. A firearms offence is an obvious flag raiser and I imagine violence related offences are top of their list for knock backs (understandably). If you have a recent conviction for domestic violence related offences you're almost no chance.

If need be, you can apply for the court to rule you a non-prohibited person under s 189 I believe (in Victoria) where you'll need to put a case forward. Generally Vic Police are the respondent and they'll either consent or fight it. Obviously costs money though.

Generally speaking, however, a summary offence isn't prohibitive depending on the charge.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by WatchyShooter » 11 Jul 2017, 1:34 pm

hissandhum wrote:Excellent advice. One thing I won't do is plead guilty to just go through with it, I'm figuring out what the smart footy is here though and there seems to be a third option:

I just spent some time on the phone with the prosecuting officer and he's going to run me through a diversion program that will have me as convicted, but not recorded. He's specifically said it won't show up on police checks, and will not inhibit my abilities to get an A/B. So that is tempting. As far as the other guy goes, I think he's getting charged with something to do with his behaviour, yes. Honestly, the guy is a huge pain. He didn't get harmed, and walked onto a train, wasted, spitting, swearing round kids and being generally hideous. He's an entitled little prick that thinks his 'rights' have been violated. If I'd walked onto a train in that state and started spitting, I'd kick my own arse. I'm sure he was taught in his gender studies class that my 'toxic masculinity' needs to be addressed, he's that type of dude. The cop I've been speaking to has apologised multiple times and recognises the lack of common sense being applied. So the diversion seems like an option that guarantees a good outcome, where as fighting it means there is a risk.

I just want to say, I've had a poke around the message board here and I can't wait to make some noob contributions and interact, it's an amazing source of information.

Thanks a million guys.


Sounds like you got an officer with common sense who’s going to help get you into the diversion to avoid any future issues, if you’ve got that option I’d say take that, fighting it can end up recording on your record and takes time, it’s not quite the outcome that you’d want but at least it shouldn’t affect your application.

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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by WatchyShooter » 11 Jul 2017, 1:40 pm

bentaz wrote:
WatchyShooter wrote:Just going to add that almost anything can be used to claim your not a fit and proper person, I almost didn’t get my A/B & H due to cannabis possession the day of my 18th, that was over 6 years ago.

Took an extra 4 months and multiple emails and letters to FAR basically pleading with them to not let the mistakes of a young idiot screw up a young mans chances of being licensed.

As others have said, I’d fight it, if other officers present seemed to not agree with the officer who charged you I’d fight it tooth and nail and get them involved, they are bound under oath to express their opinion and from the sounds of it you might have a good chance of their opinion siding with you.

Officers have been known to “overenforce” laws, and they get the book thrown at them when they do if someone makes a stink about it.

Worst thing you can do and what they expect you to do is roll over and take it, don’t do that.

Ive got a mate in his late 30's who did so dumb s**t when he was young, got charged for a little bit of weed and an unregistered slug gun in his early 20's. He got knocked back for his A/B licence last year on the basis of drugs and firearms convictions, i helped him write to the chief commissioner to appeal it and now hes good to go, just took an extra month, they'll try to knock you back for any reason they can, don't take no for an answer!


100%, that first no is almost an automated response, it’s not until you’ve put something in front of them that shows them different from what they have on record, usually you’ll be able to get them to see reason.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by duncan61 » 11 Jul 2017, 7:53 pm

sounds like its going to work out
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by bladeracer » 11 Jul 2017, 8:02 pm

WatchyShooter wrote:Sounds like you got an officer with common sense who’s going to help get you into the diversion to avoid any future issues, if you’ve got that option I’d say take that, fighting it can end up recording on your record and takes time, it’s not quite the outcome that you’d want but at least it shouldn’t affect your application.

This forum is the best out of the few I’ve found , very active and very helpful!


I would still get a lawyer. The Police can tell you anything, doesn't mean a thing later on when it turns out they were "mistaken" about what they promised.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by Tiger650 » 11 Jul 2017, 9:43 pm

IME "No conviction" will still have you ineligible, a finding / plea of guilt without conviction will screw you.
Unlike thieving politicians and such we are special.
Lawyer up and if things are as you say a Magistrate will dismiss.
Read the legislation, available online and look at "Prohibited Persons".
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by Gwion » 12 Jul 2017, 7:13 am

A diverted conviction is not the same as a finding of guilt without conviction. A diversion will not show up on the police data base. The only levels that have visibility of a diverted conviction are magistrates and above. A diversion is a one off allowance for those with an otherwise unblemished record but 'guilt without conviction' can apply to anyone, depending on circumstances. If you get into trouble within the frame of the diversion, the "beak" will come down on you hard and you will serve the sentence attached to your diversion as well as that for the new charge and both will then appear on your permanent record. If you behave yourself within the frame of the diversion, i believe the diverted conviction and sentence is expunged (not a lawyer). This is my understanding of it.

So, from an immediate legal perspective (again, no, i am not a lawyer so this is not legal advice), a diversion will not hurt you but it may well leave a horrible taste in your mouth having to "cop" to something without defending your position and having it recorded in court.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by RoginaJack » 12 Jul 2017, 4:30 pm

Have you had a talk with "Legal Aid"? A chat should not cost anything.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by Gun-nut » 12 Jul 2017, 4:39 pm

I'd personally fight it, if for no other reason then for personal pride. You seem to have enough evidence (there were other witnesses and such, right?) to back up your case. With the situation you provided, I can't see the magistrate convicting you with a minor offence under the circumstances. But whatever option you decide to take, you should seek legal advice from a qualified lawyer. I'm by no means an expert in this sort of matter, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by Gwion » 12 Jul 2017, 5:51 pm

RoginaJack wrote:Have you had a talk with "Legal Aid"? A chat should not cost anything.


And they'll tell you to take the diversion but, by all means, have the conversation.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by WatchyShooter » 12 Jul 2017, 6:45 pm

Gwion wrote:
RoginaJack wrote:Have you had a talk with "Legal Aid"? A chat should not cost anything.


And they'll tell you to take the diversion but, by all means, have the conversation.


They would most likely push you towards that, but they could help you ensure you have your ducks in a row and your ass covered, document everything and make sure your okay.

Me for example
A prosecution in court for a 'simple cannabis offences' can only be commenced after the person has been given an expiation notice [Controlled Substances Act 1984 s 45A(2)]. In the event that a summons is issued instead, then the court hearing should be adjourned to enable the Police to give the person the opportunity of being served with an expiation notice and expiating the offence. This is desirable as, if the matter is expiated, no criminal record results.


I should never of had my fine show on my record, as it’s not been through court and even if it had been, the fines been paid which means no criminal record results.

But is that the case, of course not, now I’ve got a job on the line due to the background check maybe showing this up, and I feel if I hadn’t just paid it or made sure the proper procedures were followed I wouldn’t be in this issue now, alas the stupidity of a 18 year old :D
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by RoginaJack » 15 Jul 2017, 9:28 pm

I don't think it's that straight forward.
If the charge is not withdrawn and a Diversional Order is suggested, it must be recommended by the Police Informant etc. and there still may be a court hearing. Do you know what the proposed diversion order consists of - X hours of...., attend a course, counselling etc. Do you by chance have names of the people that witnessed the actions by the Victim, if so get references and from work etc as well.
My suggestion is to seek legal advice, if only to organise your paperwork etc.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by Tiger650 » 18 Jul 2017, 3:46 pm

Legal Aid in Victoria are extremely left, mention a firearms licence application to them and they may well misrepresent you, the ends justify the means with leftists.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by RoginaJack » 19 Jul 2017, 1:01 pm

Tiger650 wrote:Legal Aid in Victoria are extremely left, mention a firearms licence application to them and they may well misrepresent you, the ends justify the means with leftists.


IMO, A firearms licence application has bugger all to do with this; the charge is Assault, that is what he is charged with and I fail to see what or why Vic. legal aid needs to know.
The main focus and discussion with legal aid should be on the Assault charge, nothing else.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by stomit85 » 06 May 2019, 6:15 pm

Did you end up getting your license application processed successfully with a diversion order? Did it hold things up considerably?
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by GojiraSteve » 07 May 2019, 2:42 pm

I think I'd shoot for not guilty mate.

The diverted conviction might only be visible to "magistrates and above" but you'd want to be real sure about what "above" actually means.

Like say if you wanted to emigrate to another country, is the government obligated to spill the beans on you to US immigration or whoever because of some treaty?

What if you want a job with the federal government requiring security clearance? (bear in mind even contract tradies or the cleaners who vacuum federal government offices need this). Is that type of background check exempt from the diversion?

If there's an exception or exceptions to the claim that this won't come back to haunt you I'd want a bloody comprehensive list.

At the end of the day if you plead not guilty and lose I reckon they'd probably divert it anyway. #thisisnotlegaladvice

EDIT: s**t I just realised how old this thread is. Hope old mate went alright in the end.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by stomit85 » 07 May 2019, 3:27 pm

I'm going through a very similar thing at the moment regarding the Diversion Order.

I was charged for assault and assault in presence of another back in October 2014. Long story short - I told a competitor in my industry to halt doing unethical actions against my clients or else I would target his clients. Because I threatened to target his clients and my gain is monetary, it was labelled Assault. A blackmail charge was also pending but dropped - thankfully.

Prior to my court appearance I was advised by my lawyer and police prosecutor that due to the nature of my crime a Diversion Order is sufficient. My understanding was that I pay a donation to wherever the Magistrate saw fit and I write a letter of apology to the victim and police and it all goes away as though nothing happened.

I submitted my gun license application in March. I have since spoken to the lady in the processing department and she has mentioned that I am still not approved and paperwork will be sent outlining they're concerns about my past court appearance in 2014. I understand that I caught her off guard when I called her but she was very vague with her response.

I get what I did in the past was reckless and any convictions of assault automatically make you a prohibited person. However, my understanding is that I would not be considered a prohibited person even though the offence committed was an indictable offence, a diversion order is not considered a finding of guilt according to section 4C of the criminal procedure Act 2008. (that's from content.police.vic.gov.au under applying for firearms page).

I'm really wanting to ask if anyone has gone through this sought of process in Victoria.

Thanks.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by Patriot » 07 May 2019, 4:57 pm

Sounds like they don’t want to licence you and are going to use the “not in the public interest” reason.

I had a mate in similar circumstances to yourself and the coppers up here knocked him back. It only takes a charge regardless of guilt.

Good luck.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by stomit85 » 07 May 2019, 5:59 pm

That’ll be a real shame for me if that’s the case. I was kind of hoping it’s standard practise to query everyone who has had a court appearance.
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by Blr243 » 07 May 2019, 8:17 pm

I once got charged for something I did not do and def not violence related. I had a massive battle with the police for four months and ended up reporting the police prosecutor to the crime and misconduct commission ....In the end they dropped the charge and the officer who charged me resigned. ...and I still have a clean slate. The police prosecutor now does not have a clean slate. It shows on his record that he has been investigated by police ethical standards ....I learnt a lot from all that bulls**t. If you have confidence in your character and honesty Never back down. Don't plead guilty ... Fight it. A conviction is unlikely based on the facts you have submitted. And if u do get convicted just continue with your application honestly. If they look into the circumstances of your conviction they will see that you roughed up a dead s**t. And at the end of the day if your ab is refused based on the incident that's tough but at least you can lie straight in bed ....... It's hard sometimes but next time a situation arises you really gotta Try to keep your hands in your pockets .......I don't use public transport. Trains have always got ferals on board
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Re: Is An Assault Charge A/B Prohibitive?

Post by TassieTiger » 07 May 2019, 8:42 pm

stomit85 wrote:That’ll be a real shame for me if that’s the case. I was kind of hoping it’s standard practise to query everyone who has had a court appearance.


It can be a tough ride - things that were done 10+ years ago in some cases comes back to bite...
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