12ga brass cases, BP and heavy slugs

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12ga brass cases, BP and heavy slugs

Post by mickb » 03 Mar 2024, 9:10 pm

something I always would love to try is running loads like the old paradox hunting guns. Basically a 750 grain slug for use in some degree of rifling. There are 12ga brass cases around, I think bertram does them and CBE does moulds for anything from 700-900 grains. Blackpowder is good enough to still get stomping power 1200-1400-fps or so, and not blow up a normal 12 ga( I think..). They didnt penetrate enough to satisfy elephant hunters in the day. but I bet they would do a job on most things in Australia.

What held me up everytime is learning the vagaries of shotshell loading. All those wads, cards, casting, working out BP loads, sealing the slugs in( do you even crimp brass etc?), :D Was half considering getting a savage 212 once and seeing how it goes. Or a drop in rifled barrel on an Adler , 5x 750 grain slugs to stomp scrub bulls..One day if I can find someone who knows what he is doing I might learn.

Some of CBE's creations below.
https://www.castbulletengineering.com.a ... 12ga-pdx-s
https://www.castbulletengineering.com.a ... -730-950pb
https://www.castbulletengineering.com.a ... -735-815fn

Anyone played with this sort of thing before?
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Re: 12ga brass cases, BP and heavy slugs

Post by Blr243 » 03 Mar 2024, 10:55 pm

Looked into it but got stuck where u did , and not easy trying to buy wads
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Re: 12ga brass cases, BP and heavy slugs

Post by mickb » 03 Mar 2024, 11:23 pm

pretty much Blr!
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Re: 12ga brass cases, BP and heavy slugs

Post by bigpete » 04 Mar 2024, 2:43 am

Been there,done that. Used round balls in brass cases. Good fun
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Re: 12ga brass cases, BP and heavy slugs

Post by Oldbloke » 04 Mar 2024, 10:58 am

It's very easy to load Lee 1oz slugs with shotgun powder and normal plastic cases.
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Re: 12ga brass cases, BP and heavy slugs

Post by No1Mk3 » 04 Mar 2024, 11:42 am

Like bigpete said, 12g brass is easy and fun, far easier in my mind than loading rifle cartridges. At its most basic all you need is a priming method, a wooden dowel and a bottle of PVC glue for loading tools, a hole punch, some carpet felt or engineers felt, a hammer and some cardboard for making wads. The brass is not crimped, the ball/minie is held in by friction or if in a double gun you are concerned with movement in the 2nd cartridge a ring of PVC around the ball will keep it in place. Over shot cards are held in place with a good ring of PVC also, (allowed to dry of course). I used to load 70g of 2F for a 1oz slug.
PS: soak the felt in beeswax/vege oil.
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Re: 12ga brass cases, BP and heavy slugs

Post by Oldbloke » 04 Mar 2024, 11:58 am

No1Mk3 wrote:Like bigpete said, 12g brass is easy and fun, far easier in my mind than loading rifle cartridges. At its most basic all you need is a priming method, a wooden dowel and a bottle of PVC glue for loading tools, a hole punch, some carpet felt or engineers felt, a hammer and some cardboard for making wads. The brass is not crimped, the ball/minie is held in by friction or if in a double gun you are concerned with movement in the 2nd cartridge a ring of PVC around the ball will keep it in place. Over shot cards are held in place with a good ring of PVC also, (allowed to dry of course). I used to load 70g of 2F for a 1oz slug.
PS: soak the felt in beeswax/vege oil.



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Re: 12ga brass cases, BP and heavy slugs

Post by Oldbloke » 04 Mar 2024, 12:14 pm

Here, this will give you the idea.

https://youtu.be/zj4Axxs3t5w?si=wKX2FzzyCM1cPCjQ
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Re: 12ga brass cases, BP and heavy slugs

Post by mickb » 09 Mar 2024, 1:20 pm

No1Mk3 wrote:Like bigpete said, 12g brass is easy and fun, far easier in my mind than loading rifle cartridges. At its most basic all you need is a priming method, a wooden dowel and a bottle of PVC glue for loading tools, a hole punch, some carpet felt or engineers felt, a hammer and some cardboard for making wads. The brass is not crimped, the ball/minie is held in by friction or if in a double gun you are concerned with movement in the 2nd cartridge a ring of PVC around the ball will keep it in place. Over shot cards are held in place with a good ring of PVC also, (allowed to dry of course). I used to load 70g of 2F for a 1oz slug.
PS: soak the felt in beeswax/vege oil.


Cheers mate, so a bloke could scale up to blackpowder charges about twice as heavy and 1 3/4 oz hardcast slugs because that is what we are talking about to duplicate the old heavy paradox loads. And figure out the wads/cards etc himself? Ive seen plenty of vids on 1oz and roundball. Havent seen many showing how to load an 800 grain hardcast to be run through rifling and some sort of accuracy at 100 yards...
Last edited by mickb on 09 Mar 2024, 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 12ga brass cases, BP and heavy slugs

Post by mickb » 09 Mar 2024, 1:31 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Here, this will give you the idea.

https://youtu.be/zj4Axxs3t5w?si=wKX2FzzyCM1cPCjQ


good to know if smokeless powder comes back into the market mate. Im looking at blackpowder though as its more available and less likely to get into pressure troubles with custom loads.
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Re: 12ga brass cases, BP and heavy slugs

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Mar 2024, 4:41 pm

mickb wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:Here, this will give you the idea.

https://youtu.be/zj4Axxs3t5w?si=wKX2FzzyCM1cPCjQ


good to know if smokeless powder comes back into the market mate. Im looking at blackpowder though as its more available and less likely to get into pressure troubles with custom loads.


Yeh,
It was just to give you a rough idea. BP is the same process.
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Re: 12ga brass cases, BP and heavy slugs

Post by bigpete » 09 Mar 2024, 8:05 pm

Your biggest problem will be crimping the brass. Especially with magtech cases
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Re: 12ga brass cases, BP and heavy slugs

Post by mickb » 09 Mar 2024, 8:36 pm

Bertram does 12ga too apparently. Alan Swan is apparently doing 12ga rifled barrels on heavy greener actions. Some are loading them right up, no idea of loads though.
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Re: 12ga brass cases, BP and heavy slugs

Post by cadet » 25 Mar 2024, 11:17 am

mickb wrote:something I always would love to try is running loads like the old paradox hunting guns. Basically a 750 grain slug for use in some degree of rifling. There are 12ga brass cases around, I think bertram does them and CBE does moulds for anything from 700-900 grains. Blackpowder is good enough to still get stomping power 1200-1400-fps or so, and not blow up a normal 12 ga( I think..). They didnt penetrate enough to satisfy elephant hunters in the day. but I bet they would do a job on most things in Australia.

What held me up everytime is learning the vagaries of shotshell loading. All those wads, cards, casting, working out BP loads, sealing the slugs in( do you even crimp brass etc?), :D Was half considering getting a savage 212 once and seeing how it goes. Or a drop in rifled barrel on an Adler , 5x 750 grain slugs to stomp scrub bulls..One day if I can find someone who knows what he is doing I might learn.

Some of CBE's creations below.
https://www.castbulletengineering.com.a ... 12ga-pdx-s
https://www.castbulletengineering.com.a ... -730-950pb
https://www.castbulletengineering.com.a ... -735-815fn

Anyone played with this sort of thing before?


Bit late to this, but I'll chime in:

I have one of the minor London makers' version of the ball-and-shot double made about the time it was rendered obsolete by Fosbery's/H&H's paradox patent. Patterns aren't much good, but it will put Lee 13g / 1 1/8 oz round balls held in a regular plastic shot cup wad, inside a regular plastic case, into a composite of both barrels of 4-5" at 50 all day long. No need of Geoff McDonald's or Bruce Bertam's wares makes for the cheapest double rifle cartridges I'll ever shoot...!

Other examples of my gun which still have their original accoutrements hold both paradox and round ball moulds.
So far I haven't been able to get actual paradox projectiles to do better than roundball, but I'm working on it. Their (CBE pdx) diameter (.735") is such that they don't fit in a shotcup, and are even a bit of a squeeze in a plastic case. Wadding is easily done with a 19mm/.750" wad punch and a mallet from cork floor tiles or solid card. These things are heavy (730gr as HP; 780 solid nose), so to keep pressure down (in my gun), powder charges and velocities need to be kept modest - not to mention regulation from both barrels - powder charges are in line with 1 1/4 oz shot charges. I've a remnant stock of AP70N/Universal, which seems to be one of the mainstay powders for this application in the paradox chapter of Wright's 3rd edition.

They're pretty authoritative on medium and thin-skinned game, but I'd be hesitant to trust a paradox load on something big that might fight back - like a buffalo.

Hope this helps.
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Re: 12ga brass cases, BP and heavy slugs

Post by Oldbloke » 25 Mar 2024, 4:04 pm

Thx cadet. Interesting stuff.
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Re: 12ga brass cases, BP and heavy slugs

Post by mickb » 25 Mar 2024, 9:43 pm

great post cadet thanks mate
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