12ga. reloading

[bladeracer]

I've decided to dive into loading 12ga. shells from scratch, normally I just buy cheap field loads when they're on special, and swap out the payload when I want to shoot something other than one-ounce of #7-1/2 shot.

I want to get more into clay busting (I enjoyed it 40-years-ago as an Army Cadet), but my shoulder can't cope with the 12ga. recoil for more than a few shots, and even those leave me hurting for several days.

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Although technically, a one-ounce 1200fps load of shot has calculated recoil along the lines of a .270 or .308 rifle, the shotguns most certainly beat me up a whole lot more than a rifle (except the M91/30), despite shooting offhand. So I want to build some lower-recoil loads, that will still break clays effectively. I'm starting with the Stoeger Condor 30", with the OEM chokes which are both "Modified", but for consistency I'm only using the top barrel during testing. It has TruGlow rifle sights so I can adjust the point of aim when I settle on a load.

As a baseline I patterned a factory Bronzewing Terminator 28g #7-1/2 1200fps load at 30m. It made 1230fps.

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I'm using a roll of paper that is 32" (800mm) wide, taped to 3mm MDF sheet as a penetration indicator (I figure any pellet going through 3mm of MDF at 30m won't have any trouble breaking clays). I'm patterning at 30m because of the paper width, and 30m is very handy to shoot right out front of my office reloading the same shell. I'm drawing a 30"-diameter circle on the pattern where I think the rough centre is.

I'm starting with AP70N simply because I have more of it than other suitable powders, but I'm happy to try other ADI powders if they're a better option - if I can get them just now. The load data I've seen is for the new APS powders so I'm just guessing with the AP70N load data. To start with I figure a 7/8-ounce load around 900fps _should_ be reasonably easy on me (it's still going to bloody hurt but will hopefully be tolerable), so I'm using Winchester AA12L 7/8-oz wads (39.1gn) and the factory Bronzewing hulls (I believe they're considered to be "Cheddite" straight-wall ribbed), with a .046" plastic over-shot disc (5gn) to fill the gap over 380gn of shot (total payload 425gn excluding powder charge), then star-crimped. Primers are Win209.

20gn of AP70N pushing 380gn of #7-1/2 (320 pellets) makes 875fps, and is not at all hard on the shoulder.

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The thing is though, I'm not seeing a significant difference in the pattern, despite having only 87% of the pellets, and only 70% of the velocity of the factory load. The pellets are identical as they're taken from the factory Bronzewing loads.

22gn of AP70N pushing 380gn of #9 (530 pellets) makes 955fps, and is starting to be felt.

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I do think I'm seeing a denser pattern with the #9 shot though, since there are 65% more pellets.

All of these are still passing through the 3mm MDF so I think the velocities are sufficient, I want to try the #9 at the 875fps velocity next.

More testing to do yet. Anybody feel like explaining how to analyse a shot pattern

[Jarhead]

Hey Bladeracer,

That sounds like a lot of fun. I have had trouble using Winchester AA wads in Cheddite hulls. The powder seals don't always obturate against the barrel properly and result in a burp instead of a bang. You get very variable muzzle velocities. Sometimes I get a fireball out the end of the barrel a 1/2 second after the shot leaves or a barrel full of unburnt powder. Either way I stopped doing that.

The Winchester AA wads work really well with the Winchester AA HS hulls. You can load them 7-10 times as well before they start cracking the corners of the crimp. Do you have any of these? If not PM me your address and I will send you a boxfull. You will need to be able to crimp an eight point crimp

I would often make low recoil rounds for new try shooters. Winchester HS AA Hull - 24 grams of #9 or 7.5 lead, WAA12SL wad, Win 209 primer and 17 grains of AS30N or APS350. This worked great and was very reliable. You could try loading this down to 22 grams and see how you go. At these lower pressures powder burns much slower so you need to compensate with a faster burning powder like APS350 or AS30N.

4 other gun mods that would help-

Adding weight to the gun will reduce felt recoil. I had a set on my ATA 686 sporter that fit under the fore grip - nobody knew they were there- sneaky.

https://sminglershotgunsports.webs.com/ ... eights.htm

I have seen a gent with a bad shoulder put a steel rod in a tight fitting rubber hose in the stock . He swore this helped alot- more than anything else he did. The rubber has to be tight on the steel rod (inside hose diameter) and tight against the inside of the stock (outside hose diameter) at one place in the stock (i.e. not along the entire length). He also had the rubber hose extend past the steel rod by 1cm on each end.

Backboring your barrel (or getting a factory backbored gun) will also reduce the recoil.

Get a thick recoil pad.

In NSW you can also get a CAT D and get a semi auto- which has much less recoil- not sure if you can do the same in VIC?

[olly_2001]

Gday
As a medic I can appreciate that shoulder damage. The head of humerus is a bad bone to break as it’s healing can be poor so protect it. The shoulder is the most complex joint as it moves all around in 360 degrees c.w. a knee or ankle. Therefore I’m paranoid about protecting my shoulder also. My reading is that you are right to reduce the load and velocity but I suspect the big thing will be a recoil pad. The pachmayr decelerators are amazing but obviously will affect the nice fit of your shottie. I’ve just bought a beretta SP and am facing the same dilemma. All the best.

[bladeracer]

Hey Bladeracer,

That sounds like a lot of fun. I have had trouble using Winchester AA wads in Cheddite hulls. The powder seals don't always obturate against the barrel properly and result in a burp instead of a bang. You get very variable muzzle velocities. Sometimes I get a fireball out the end of the barrel a 1/2 second after the shot leaves or a barrel full of unburnt powder. Either way I stopped doing that.

The Winchester AA wads work really well with the Winchester AA HS hulls. You can load them 7-10 times as well before they start cracking the corners of the crimp. Do you have any of these? If not PM me your address and I will send you a boxfull. You will need to be able to crimp an eight point crimp

I would often make low recoil rounds for new try shooters. Winchester HS AA Hull - 24 grams of #9 or 7.5 lead, WAA12SL wad, Win 209 primer and 17 grains of AS30N or APS350. This worked great and was very reliable. You could try loading this down to 22 grams and see how you go. At these lower pressures powder burns much slower so you need to compensate with a faster burning powder like APS350 or AS30N.

4 other gun mods that would help-

Adding weight to the gun will reduce felt recoil. I had a set on my ATA 686 sporter that fit under the fore grip - nobody knew they were there- sneaky.

https://sminglershotgunsports.webs.com/ ... eights.htm

I have seen a gent with a bad shoulder put a steel rod in a tight fitting rubber hose in the stock . He swore this helped alot- more than anything else he did. The rubber has to be tight on the steel rod (inside hose diameter) and tight against the inside of the stock (outside hose diameter) at one place in the stock (i.e. not along the entire length). He also had the rubber hose extend past the steel rod by 1cm on each end.

Backboring your barrel (or getting a factory backbored gun) will also reduce the recoil.

Get a thick recoil pad.

In NSW you can also get a CAT D and get a semi auto- which has much less recoil- not sure if you can do the same in VIC?

So far I'm impressed with velocity consistency, I was expecting it to vary a lot due to the less "rigid" construction of shotshell loads. What powder were you experiencing those burps with?

I'm not really sure how to differentiate hulls as yet. I _think_ there are three basic common types, and the hulls I'm using seem to match the description of the Cheddite hull design. I do have some smooth-sided Winchester hulls but whether they're "AA HS" I don't know. I also bought 1000 new hulls a few years ago when they were on a crazy special, but they just bulk packed in zip-lock bags with no labels - I _think_ they're also ribbed cheddite hulls though. I appreciate your very generous offer but I think I have more than enough hulls to last me a while, if I run low I'll chase you up though
I also have brass MagTech shells but I'll play with those after I learn a bit more first

I can do eight- and six-point crimps on the Load-All II. I wasn't intending to use the Load-All but I was surprised to discover I had to resize the hulls to get them to chamber and extract from the T-1000 (they're fine in the Condor), fired factory hulls are .007-.009" larger than unfired shells. I am seeing less expansion from the reduced loads though (.003-.005") so I may not have to re-size these.

That's a good point about the burn rate that I hadn't considered. APS350 is close to Trailboss's burn rate, but fitting enough TB in the shell is a problem. I want to keep a shot cup but I could cut the rest off the wad and try that. I think a full or turkey choke should let me reduce the payload as well so I want to play with that too. I really can't see a need for a shot pattern more than a foot across

I have considered boring the buttstock out and filling it with lead shot, but the shoulder injury won't enjoy hefting a heavy gun around either. I may have to try it though. I'll fill a sock with a kilo of shot and strap it to the gun. It does confuse me why shotguns don't seem to follow the same recoil calculations as rifles. The Condor and the T-1000 both have pretty thick and soft buttpads already. I guess I could order another buttpad, cut that thickness out of the stock, and fit two pads. But I'm thinking having less recoil is a better overall solution. I've read about back-boring but it seems to be snake-oil for recoil reduction. I guess it's possible that some combinations of barrel/choke/load might produce lower felt recoil after back-boring, but it doesn't seem to be a rigid rule. I should measure my bore diameters and see what they are I guess.

Yep, semi-auto-5rd is CatC here, and I can apply for it for the farm, or for competition if I got into that. But it galls me to own a firearm with even more ridiculous restrictions on its use than we already suffer with.

[bladeracer]

Gday
As a medic I can appreciate that shoulder damage. The head of humerus is a bad bone to break as it’s healing can be poor so protect it. The shoulder is the most complex joint as it moves all around in 360 degrees c.w. a knee or ankle. Therefore I’m paranoid about protecting my shoulder also. My reading is that you are right to reduce the load and velocity but I suspect the big thing will be a recoil pad. The pachmayr decelerators are amazing but obviously will affect the nice fit of your shottie. I’ve just bought a beretta SP and am facing the same dilemma. All the best.

Yep, it's a mess
While it had the nail in it I was still riding and assumed I'd be fine to keep racing, but once it was removed the shoulder deteriorated rapidly, so I can no longer ride bikes at all. I think the shoulder is past what can be relieved by a butt pad, but I have played with designing an hydraulically-damped shock absorber. Something that will absorb the recoil energy in a spring, then release it slowly. I don't know if such a thing has already been marketed.

Overall though, I think the goal of simply producing less recoil energy to then have to deal with is a good approach

[Jarhead]

Bladeracer,

I was using older AS30N, older AS50N and new APS450. All 3 did the same thing in hulls I loaded for ISSF skeet practice. I would get two burps per round of skeet, and a fireball every second round. Unburnt powder was everywhere when I cleaned the gun and it was filthy with residue. I was thinking it would stop with the newer powder but it didn't.

Careful with the tight chokes- they will accelerate the load more and increase felt recoil. Go with open chokes and get closer to the target like us skeet shooters!

There are also these:

https://www.nokick.com/Graco_Gracoil_System_s/27.htm

[bladeracer]

Bladeracer,

I was using older AS30N, older AS50N and new APS450. All 3 did the same thing in hulls I loaded for ISSF skeet practice. I would get two burps per round of skeet, and a fireball every second round. Unburnt powder was everywhere when I cleaned the gun and it was filthy with residue. I was thinking it would stop with the newer powder but it didn't.

Careful with the tight chokes- they will accelerate the load more and increase felt recoil. Go with open chokes and get closer to the target like us skeet shooters!

There are also these:

https://www.nokick.com/Graco_Gracoil_System_s/27.htm

I'm not seeing anything particularly fithy in the bores so far.
I'm testing 21gn of AP70N under 372gn of #9 today making 940-ish-fps in the Condor 30".
Just tried the same load in the T-1000 20" full-choke making 804fps, but _not_ penetrating the 3mm MDF at 30m. So I think I need to stay above 900fps. Going to try the T-1000 now with the 28" full-choke.

I want to shoot clays to improve my rifle skills, not to erode them Smaller patterns mean I have to aim better!

Those recoil systems look like they're worth closer investigation, thanks for that.

[bladeracer]

My shoulder is feeling it, but I think I've got something that works already, at least in the T-1000.

I only have Modified chokes for the Condor but a full set for the T-1000, so I'm testing with full-choke in the 28" barrel.
I think I've settled on a load of 21gn of AP70N under 330gn (3/4oz) of #9 shot (460 pellets) at 950fps. Not all the pellets are pushing through the 3mm MDF but the pattern is still quite dense.

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I've been loading the one hull over and over to see how long it lasts, and it's holding up really well. Now I'll load a dozen or so of these and pattern them all to see how consistent they are, and also hit some clays to see if they break reliably. The wads are also fairing better than the OEM Bronzewing ones which often lose a petal or two. I could probably re-use these.

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[olly_2001]

Ah yes motorbikes. My brother is besotted and rides a Suzuki GSX.
That load looks really good. From my reading on other forums those numbers are what your after. Will keep an eye on your progress

[bladeracer]

Ah yes motorbikes. My brother is besotted and rides a Suzuki GSX.
That load looks really good. From my reading on other forums those numbers are what your after. Will keep an eye on your progress

I still have my '85, '90 and '98 GSXR's in the shed, as well as a bunch of other bikes I can't ride.

I hope this load works well, I was starting to think this was going to drag on a while

[bladeracer]

The wind died down enough to pattern five more rounds just now.
I sat a clay side-on on top of a bamboo stick in front of the board to test penetration, with very poor results
Only the hottest load actually managed to chip some pieces off, despite making 1043fps, after being dinged by the four previous rounds - without knocking the clay off the stick! Because the gun is patterning around 180mm high I'm aiming at the tape diamond, but the clay is sitting nearer the pattern centre. It's probably taking eight-to-ten hits with each shot, in flight I think it should take two-or-three at least out of the shot column. The first shot dinged it nine times then I rotated it for each shot.

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And this is only 30m at a stationary clay, I think #9 shot is going to need 1200fps at least, just to be effective to 30m. But I suppose I've made a light-recoiling load for close-range pest birds and rats
I think I'm going to have to look at #7-1/2 shot again.
There's a small amount of burned powder residue in the action and bore, but not much. Case heads are expanding .003-.005".

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The first shot was the tenth firing of the hull, which still looks fine, although it now has three splits in the crimp. It went 925fps. I've drawn the circle a couple inches too far to the left I think.

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The rest are once-fired Bronzewing Terminator hulls. Second shot made 895fps.

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Third went 949fps.

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Fourth went 994fps and has some patches in the pattern.

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And the fifth went 1043fps.

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I'll see if I can find a tighter choke for it so I can shoot lighter loads of #7-1/2.

[Oldbloke]

Have not read the thread. But your after a light recoil load.

A few points to remember if you don't already know. Lead shot is very inefficient balistically.
IMO
1. The faster it starts out of the barrel the faster it slows down.
2. So, a load staring out slow, ends up at say,,, 50 yards not much slower than a faster load.
3. You can load up a stock with lead shot to help reduce recoil.
4. Larger pellets tend to retain energy over a longer distance.

A 28gram load doing about 1100fps of 5s will do the job an rabbits out to about 50 yards.

P.S. Soft shot opens up patterns, hard shot tends to tighten it.
Removing the wad fingers tends to open up patterns because the pellets get deformed more.

Don't forget you could go back to using over cards if need be.

[bladeracer]

Have not read the thread. But your after a light recoil load.

A few points to remember if you don't already know. Lead shot is very inefficient balistically.
IMO
1. The faster it starts out of the barrel the faster it slows down.
2. So, a load staring out slow, ends up at say,,, 50 yards not much slower than a faster load.
3. You can load up a stock with lead shot to help reduce recoil.
4. Larger pellets tend to retain energy over a longer distance.

A 28gram load doing about 1100fps of 5s will do the job an rabbits out to about 50 yards.

Yep, that's why I think I need to look at #7-1/2's instead of the #9's, but less pellets means I need a tighter pattern, tighter than my full-choke I think. A turkey choke with a half-ounce load of #7-1/2 at 1200fps for example.

[olly_2001]

The pellets look so light in the photos but I’m a shotgun noob.
I told the guy in the shop I wanted low recoil farm ammo and he gave me 7 1/2 at 1200fps.
Will be shooting that this weekend and let you know if it of any use to your quest... keep up the research

[bladeracer]

The pellets look so light in the photos but I’m a shotgun noob.
I told the guy in the shop I wanted low recoil farm ammo and he gave me 7 1/2 at 1200fps.
Will be shooting that this weekend and let you know if it of any use to your quest... keep up the research

Yep, #9 shot is miniscule, #7-1/2 is huge in comparison
I tried a 3/4oz load of 7-1/2 at 970fps and it still didn't break the bloody clay
It patterned fairly neatly though.

I was going to include pics but today the forum has been restricted to 500Kb attachments!
Which is way too small to see pellet holes.

I also tried a 9/16oz load as an experiment, I put layers of pellets separated by overshot cards just to see if it would have any effect. I reduced the charge 2gn to allow for the reduced payload but it only made 754fps, and the pattern was no pattern at all, just a scattering of patches. Possibly it made five separate smaller patterns, I would have to shoot a few more of them to see.

I have a pair of Turkey chokes coming from the US for the Condor.

[Skinna]

Whats with Turkey chokes.? (ive never heard of them, but its illegal to shoot the kind of turkeys we have in Aus )

I thought they shot them in throat/upper chest area, so are they a tighter choke.? or i missing something.?

[bladeracer]

Whats with Turkey chokes.? (ive never heard of them, but its illegal to shoot the kind of turkeys we have in Aus )

I thought they shot them in throat/upper chest area, so are they a tighter choke.? or i missing something.?

Yep, tighter than full-choke for head-shooting turkeys out to 60m or more. Once I have those then I can hopefully get some denser patterns with lighter payloads...hopefully

Chokes theoretically have a standard, based on the percentage of the payload falling within a 750mm circle at 35m. Full-choke is supposed to be a .030" restriction and put 70% in the circle, Turkey is 0.045" or more and put 75% or more of the load in the circle. My Condor only has Modified chokes putting 60% on target. An ounce of #9 shot is 585-ish pellets, of which the full-choke should put 410 into the circle, which I can't be bothered counting

[Oldbloke]

BR, tight choke must increase recoil.

When I use light 1oz loads for rabbits I did so because I had changed my style of hunting. Mainly abbits in long grass.

[bladeracer]

BR, tight choke must increase recoil.

When I use light 1oz loads for rabbits I did so because I had changed my style of hunting. Mainly abbits in long grass.

I agree, it must, but by how much? Enough to be noticeable?

[Oldbloke]

BR, tight choke must increase recoil.

When I use light 1oz loads for rabbits I did so because I had changed my style of hunting. Mainly abbits in long grass.

I agree, it must, but by how much? Enough to be noticeable?

Can't say. But inclined to think you will notice it. Just have to try. It's just sounded counter productive to me, considering what you are trying to achieve. It's just about physics which I'm sure you are aware.

Have you considered adding some lead shot to the stock?

[Oldbloke]

Reread the OP. IMO clays and tight chokes don't mix well.

[Oldbloke]

I was going to include pics but today the forum has been restricted to 500Kb attachments!
Which is way too small to see pellet holes.
.

Mate, the pics above are under 100kb and look ok on my mobile. Maybe the more recent ones are out of focus or something? If the original pic is good then compressing it to under 500kb should result in a very good pic.

Edit, I'm on 2 other forums and they are limited to 250kb. That's a tough ask but it works.

[bladeracer]

I was going to include pics but today the forum has been restricted to 500Kb attachments!
Which is way too small to see pellet holes.
.

Mate, the pics above are under 100kb and look ok on my mobile. Maybe the more recent ones are out of focus or something? If the original pic is good then compressing it to under 500kb should result in a very good pic.

Edit, I'm on 2 other forums and they are limited to 250kb. That's a tough ask but it works.

Those pics I posted have been renamed and made smaller. When I posted them they were between 1Mb and 1.5Mb. Admins I guess.

[Gadge]

bladeracer, the rule of thumb for powder burn rates here, is lighter shot charge=faster powder.

I've been reloading shottie shells for over 40 years now, and of the current ADI range, I mostly use AS50N for target loads.
Except when I'm using up some older Nobel equivalent powder - currently running through a 2.5kg tin of Nobel 60, that I got given.

my loading bench

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L to R; MEC600jr 12ga, MEC600jr 20ga, , MEC650 12ga.

[Oldbloke]

Lol. I started out with Nobel 60. Now using the AS50N as well.

Gadge, Where are you getting your shot?

[bladeracer]

bladeracer, the rule of thumb for powder burn rates here, is lighter shot charge=faster powder.

I've been reloading shottie shells for over 40 years now, and of the current ADI range, I mostly use AS50N for target loads.
Except when I'm using up some older Nobel equivalent powder - currently running through a 2.5kg tin of Nobel 60, that I got given.

IMG_0861a.JPG

L to R; MEC600jr 12ga, MEC600jr 20ga, , MEC650 12ga.

Awesome Gadge
Have you experimented with reduced-recoil loads as I'm trying to achieve?
I have AP50N, AP70N, AR2205 and Trailboss in the fastest-burning powders.
I don't keep any AS powders on hand as it never occurred to me I would ever want to load 12ga.
I have not yet tried Trailboss but I do want to. Have you tried Trailboss in 12ga. loads?
I'm waiting on chokes and received an extra cuddly butt pad today for the Condor. Toying with boring the buttstock out while I'm doing the pad and fill it with shot.

[bladeracer]

Oh, I also have some Magtech brass 12ga. (and .410) that I'd like to play with eventually also.
Seen a lot of people like to drill them out to take 209 primers, but it seems to me the 8mm-long 209 will be sticking deep into the case, plastic hulls tend to have a much thicker head, which is why the 209's are so long. My plastic hulls have 10mm thick case heads, the brass head is only 1.6mm thick. Do the pistol primers give better ignition by not being buried into the powder?
I can't actually see any reason to want to switch them to 209's.

[bladeracer]

The new buttpad is really no softer than the original one, so for now I've taped it over the original just to see if I feel any difference.
My chokes arrived today, five-days from Sweden, astonishing!
They're "unfinished" though and require hand-fitting the final threads to ensure a tight fit. I'm doing that now.

[Gadge]

Awesome Gadge
Have you experimented with reduced-recoil loads as I'm trying to achieve?
I have AP50N, AP70N, AR2205 and Trailboss in the fastest-burning powders.
I don't keep any AS powders on hand as it never occurred to me I would ever want to load 12ga.
I have not yet tried Trailboss but I do want to. Have you tried Trailboss in 12ga. loads?
I'm waiting on chokes and received an extra cuddly butt pad today for the Condor. Toying with boring the buttstock out while I'm doing the pad and fill it with shot.

Not as such, but have done a bit of work on chronying light, fast loads.
AP powders are interchangeable, in practice, with their AS counterparts.

Manufactured to closely matched [by rigorous testing] burning rates with their AS counterparts.
Just smaller flake size, to ensure accurate metering through powder throwers, at the single digit charge sizes common in pistol target loads.

Ron Forsyth wrote a brilliant series on testing of shottie loads and patterning them, in the SSAA mag, back in the 90s.

When I can get time to scan and process these page images [and that won't be much before year's end - got a huge amount of workload ATM], I'll PDF them into e-format for distribution.

[Gadge]

Gadge, Where are you getting your shot?

The target load shot I'm currently using came from Ballantine Ammunition in Laverton [and they do sell direct], via Northern Vic Ammo Supply.