Kids shotgun gauge

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Kids shotgun gauge

Post by Shootermick » 21 Jun 2021, 6:54 am

My kids are getting interested in shooting. At the moment it’s just the .22 at targets 25 metres away to make sure they both hit a few, which keeps them interested.
I’m thinking about an under over shotgun that my 12 year old could use and maybe even hit a clay or two. I’ve got a single shot 410, but it’s not really the gun for it.
So I was thinking either 20 or 28 gauge.? But I haven’t shot either so I’m after a few of your thoughts.
Cheers everyone.
Last edited by Shootermick on 21 Jun 2021, 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by Communism_Is_Cancer » 21 Jun 2021, 7:19 am

Henry makes a good lever action 410 which is good for kids.
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by bigpete » 21 Jun 2021, 10:00 am

Whats wrong with the 410 ?
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jun 2021, 11:20 am

Shootermick wrote:My kids are getting interested in shooting. At the moment it’s just the .22 at targets 25 metres away to make sure they both hit a few, which keeps them interested.
I’m thinking about an under over shotgun that my 12 year old could use and maybe even hit a clay or two. I’ve got a single shot 410, but it’s not really the gun for it.
So I was thinking either 20 or 28 gauge.? But I haven’t shot either so I’m after a few of your thoughts.
Cheers everyone.


I got to shoot some clay in Army Cadets when I was fourteen, and I think most of us coped just fine with the recoil of the 12ga. Whether I would've enjoyed it at twelve is hard to say though.

I would suggest trying a 12ga., 20ga., and a .410 before spending the money. But they will want to move to 12ga. eventually, so I would lean toward that if it doesn't knock them around too badly. Maybe go check out your local gun club and see what other kids are shooting with?

.410 I never found useful for anything but it's great for wounding small game.
Last edited by bladeracer on 21 Jun 2021, 2:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by No1Mk3 » 21 Jun 2021, 11:35 am

G'day Shootermick,
Recoil for 7/8oz of shot at 1200fps is exactly the same for any gauge, 4 to 40. The difference, felt recoil, will be in gun weight, with a 28 likely to be lighter than a 12 the 28 will "kick" harder. When you want to move up into heavier & faster cartridges this is where you will find the limitations of a smaller gun in choice of loads. You should try your kids, ONCE THEY BECOME 12 YO, with the weight of the gun, if they can lift and swing the 12 with ease then simply buy them one and shoot light loads. If they need a lighter gun then look at 20's as they are the next most supported gauge to 12's and a lot of good guns are available. My Mrs is fixated on 16's, she finds them lighter & easier to use, and using 1oz loads for everything can shoot all day, we have both modern & antique 16g guns to play with, Cheers.
Last edited by No1Mk3 on 21 Jun 2021, 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by No1Mk3 » 21 Jun 2021, 11:37 am

PS: I know a couple of people with O/U 410's who do very well on rabbit, quail & clays, Cheers
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by Harronek » 21 Jun 2021, 12:04 pm

There is Shotgun shooting where you let off a few rounds and have a bit of fun , and then there is Shotgun shooting to be totally proficient and a skilled wing shot either in competitions or game shooting .
I lean towards the competition side of things .
It’s a shame we cant have Semi-automatic firearms here in Australia.
The best first gun for any new shotgun shooter is a gas operated semi because of the less recoil factor and also the handling characteristics are often less barrel heavy and more easily moved and pointed .
Having to start off with a double barrel makes if more difficult , but not impossible.
I believe the 12 ga is the best option.
The student needs enough strength to be able to hold/lift/control a gun of 7 1/2 pounds or more .
Use target loads of no more than 1 oz preferably 3/4 or 7/8 if you can get them and no more than 1200fps .
The gun has to vaguely fit them , it doesn’t need to be a perfect custom fit , but too long or short in the stock is not good .
Never start a new shotgun shooter by getting them to shoot at a stationary target , always have some movement happening in the target , this helps greatly with their perceived recoil .
Personally I believe that starting someone off to soon is not a good idea and often introduces bad habits in their shooting form .
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by bigpete » 21 Jun 2021, 12:07 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Shootermick wrote:My kids are getting interested in shooting. At the moment it’s just the .22 at targets 25 metres away to make sure they both hit a few, which keeps them interested.
I’m thinking about an under over shotgun that my 11 year old could use and maybe even hit a clay or two. I’ve got a single shot 410, but it’s not really the gun for it.
So I was thinking either 20 or 28 gauge.? But I haven’t shot either so I’m after a few of your thoughts.
Cheers everyone.


Eleven-year-olds are not allowed to handle a firearm in Victoria, even under supervision on an approved range, so I'm guessing you were visiting WA at the time.

I got to shoot some clay in Army Cadets when I was fourteen, and I think most of us coped just fine with the recoil of the 12ga. Whether I would've enjoyed it at eleven is hard to say though.

I would suggest trying a 12ga., 20ga., and a .410 before spending the money. But they will want to move to 12ga. eventually, so I would lean toward that if it doesn't knock them around too badly. Maybe go check out your local gun club and see what other kids are shooting with?

.410 I never found useful for anything but it's great for wounding small game.


Yeah ? Better tell that to all the stuff I've killed cleanly with mine over the last 6 months lol
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by bigpete » 21 Jun 2021, 12:09 pm

No1Mk3 wrote:PS: I know a couple of people with O/U 410's who do very well on rabbit, quail & clays, Cheers


I've taken crows,pigeons,rabbits,and a fox with mine,using eley 12.5gm 2.5 inch shells and size 6 shot. All very cleanly killed
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by Shootermick » 21 Jun 2021, 12:24 pm

Sorry, he’s 12. About to go for his junior permit, but we haven’t done it yet. I’ll edit the original post.
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by Shootermick » 21 Jun 2021, 12:29 pm

bigpete wrote:Whats wrong with the 410 ?


Nothing really. I’ve got a H&R Tamer 410, plastic stock and it’s a really small gun. So that’s why I thought a sub gauge in under/over might be better to use and hopefully teach some better habits.
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by Communism_Is_Cancer » 21 Jun 2021, 12:31 pm

In Queensland if you are under 18 but over 11 you can shoot on private property so long as you a with a licensed shooter over 18.
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by bigpete » 21 Jun 2021, 1:27 pm

Shootermick wrote:
bigpete wrote:Whats wrong with the 410 ?


Nothing really. I’ve got a H&R Tamer 410, plastic stock and it’s a really small gun. So that’s why I thought a sub gauge in under/over might be better to use and hopefully teach some better habits.

Perhaps have a look at the Armed 410 under and over shotguns available
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jun 2021, 2:23 pm

Shootermick wrote:
bigpete wrote:Whats wrong with the 410 ?


Nothing really. I’ve got a H&R Tamer 410, plastic stock and it’s a really small gun. So that’s why I thought a sub gauge in under/over might be better to use and hopefully teach some better habits.


When I was looking at reducing recoil, I read about sub-caliber tubes that fit inside the 12ga. barrels to convert it to .410 for kids without being stuck with a .410 once they grow out of it. I believe they are quite expensive though so really only an option with expensive guns, otherwise it's cheaper to just buy a second gun. I was never able to find a source to buy them, but they'd be pretty easy to fabricate using a barrel from a single-gun turned down to fit in the 12ga. No idea if it's done with the larger gauges like 16/20/28 but it should be possible.

I just measured a 12ga. barrel at .880" at the muzzle and 1.150" at the chamber. The chamber of an insert is surrounded by the original 12ga. chamber so thinning it wouldn't be a problem. At the muzzle (and for most of the barrel) the wall thickness is about .075". 16ga. bore is a nominal .663", 20ga. is .615", 28ga. is .550", so 20ga. and 28ga. would work fine, 16ga. would be a bit tight I think as wall thickness would be under .030" thick and you would really only want the chamber and choke to be in contact with the outer barrel. Maybe discuss it with a gunsmith.

I have the Chiappa .410 rifled chamber insert but I haven't tried it with .410 yet, only .45 Colt.
It's only about 8" long but I'll have to make some ammo and try patterning it.
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by Harronek » 21 Jun 2021, 3:26 pm

Briley make sub gauge 20ga/28ga and .410 full length tubes which go inside your 12 ga barrels , they even have their own chokes and are used for Skeet comps where you have to shoot all 4 gauges .
They also make what they call Sidekicks ( a much cheaper option) these are basically chamber inserts and are roughly 300mm long depending on which gauge your using .
I have a set of Sidekicks and think they are great .
I have started quite a few young people off shooting 28ga out of a 12 ga gun because the recoil is very low and on a Skeet field for example you can get them hitting slow incoming targets very quickly .
If you get them hitting a target consistently their enthusiasm and excitement goes through the roof and they are hooked for life .
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jun 2021, 3:33 pm

Thanks for that.
US$700 plus shipping though.
https://www.briley.com/p-52194-companion-drop-in-28-gauge-tube-set-ultralite.aspx

The Sidekicks look like fun though, US$800 for six tubes.
https://www.briley.com/c-467-side-kick-chamber-tube-sets.aspx

What do they pattern like compared to a .410 gun?


Harronek wrote:Briley make sub gauge 20ga/28ga and .410 full length tubes which go inside your 12 ga barrels , they even have their own chokes and are used for Skeet comps where you have to shoot all 4 gauges .
They also make what they call Sidekicks ( a much cheaper option) these are basically chamber inserts and are roughly 300mm long depending on which gauge your using .
I have a set of Sidekicks and think they are great .
I have started quite a few young people off shooting 28ga out of a 12 ga gun because the recoil is very low and on a Skeet field for example you can get them hitting slow incoming targets very quickly .
If you get them hitting a target consistently their enthusiasm and excitement goes through the roof and they are hooked for life .
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by womble » 21 Jun 2021, 4:06 pm

Boito 410 under over 26” barrel. Cheap but decent enough. It’s made for kids.
Next week kid is interested in something else.
I saw a second hand one at Melbourne firearms in Ringwood couple few weeks ago.
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by womble » 21 Jun 2021, 4:12 pm

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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by Harronek » 21 Jun 2021, 4:21 pm

The .410 Sidekicks are the least effective in my opinion.
They are OK for Skeet, and will definitely break targets, but it’s in the 28 and 20 where they really shine and your at very little or no disadvantage to dedicated guns in those gauges.
I purchased mine from Briley Australia in Victoria about 10 years ago and I can’t remember what I paid, but it wasn’t as much as those EBay ones thats for sure.
Great things actually when you consider that your getting 3 different gauges for not much money and still having the familiarity of your 12 ga gun being used for everything.
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by Oldbloke » 21 Jun 2021, 4:22 pm

I would give him a run with the 410 before you do anything else. Then in a couple of years a SB 12g with the lightest leads you can buy.

Reloading you can load (from memory) 7/8 Oz in 12g. Pretty light.
Here you go. :D
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by Shootermick » 21 Jun 2021, 5:29 pm

womble wrote:Boito 410 under over 26” barrel. Cheap but decent enough. It’s made for kids.
Next week kid is interested in something else.
I saw a second hand one at Melbourne firearms in Ringwood couple few weeks ago.


“Next week kid is interested in something else”
Truer words have never been spoken.
To counteract that, it would have to be something that I’d use myself as well!
There’s a nice Yildiz 28 gauge at my local which I’ll have another look at next time I’m there.
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by Oldbloke » 21 Jun 2021, 5:53 pm

Shootermick wrote:

Next week kid is interested in something else”
Truer words have never been spoken.
To counteract that, it would have to be something that I’d use myself as well!
There’s a nice Yildiz 28 gauge at my local which I’ll have another look at next time I’m there.


Yep, my grandson lost interest after I bought a .22 for him. :thumbsdown: :unknown: :unknown:

But I have two more. :D

Get the price of the ammo before you buy anything other than a 12g mate. All pricy and often in short supply.
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by boingk » 21 Jun 2021, 10:11 pm

Boito 12g A680 or Stoeger Double Defence / Condor / Outback. Basically any cheaper 20" barrelled 12G. Run 'AA' loads in it which throw 26 grams of shot at 980fps.

I had a Boito 20" side-by-side and it went pretty well. Not a bad thing but just didn't do it for me. Traded it up to a Stoeger Double Defence - a blacked-out under-and-over 20" gun.

Damn thing is brilliant, and a bit of heft about it too as it uses proper wood stocking and not just black plastic. The beading is a yellow hi-vis as standard which has rapidly become my favourite. Chokes are fixed at IC & M if I recall and it points fairly well for a short gun.

Plus... it looks the part from a young blokes perspective. I have no idea what he's into but kids love video games and and this thing comes with a pic rail for the top and both sides of the barrel. Need I say more? They are removeable as well, I took the top off mine and left the sides so I can carry a torch on it when its dark.

The AA loads are a gimme, they are generally pretty widely available and not terribly expensive - I think my local is $17 / 25rd. I use them for introducing new shooters to shotguns and haven't had a negative comment yet.

Here's the gun, quick video and just a pic below:

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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by ZaineB » 21 Jun 2021, 10:48 pm

bladeracer wrote: .410 I never found useful for anything but it's great for wounding small game.



really? did you miss them or something? I would never get rid of my 410, its brilliant, its taken plenty since I was 8yo, pigs, ducks, goats, foxes, cats, dogs, rabbits, pest birds, roos, a donkey.... and I have never once used solids.

nothing at all wrong with the 410.
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by CT hillbilly » 22 Jun 2021, 6:04 am

No1Mk3 wrote:PS: I know a couple of people with O/U 410's who do very well on rabbit, quail & clays, Cheers

We have a nice little wooden stock 410U/O that my 9yr old boy can sting rabbits with we have a ball shooting out of the Polaris at night
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by Oldbloke » 22 Jun 2021, 6:36 am

boingk wrote:Boito 12g A680 or Stoeger Double Defence / Condor / Outback. Basically any cheaper 20" barrelled 12G. Run 'AA' loads in it which throw 26 grams of shot at 980fps.

The AA loads are a gimme, they are generally pretty widely available and not terribly expensive - I think my local is $17 / 25rd. I use them for introducing new shooters to shotguns and haven't had a negative comment yet.
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by duncan61 » 22 Jun 2021, 11:10 am

I used to buy Winchester AA Low Recoil Target Ammunition 12 Gauge 2-3/4" 7/8 oz #8 Shot as it was cheap and the cases were smooth and good for making heavy field loads.I had properties where parrots were a problem and we would hose loads of them.The chap at the gun shop claimed they would only break clays but he was wrong.They were good for bunnies out to 30-40 metres and the tiny shot did not damage the meat.I have picked up a rabbit that did not even have a mark on it I think they pass out from the blast.The recoil was nothing and I did not even lose my sight picture.I love it in pubs when people start claiming this shotgun or that shotgun had a huge recoil.Sure you can fit a pad but 90% is the ammo you feed it.A 410 with 3 inch heavy field loads in no 4 will shoot further than a 12 bore with the target ammo I described
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by Diamond Jim » 23 Jun 2021, 1:12 am

I don't know. I've used a .410 (SMLE conversion) as a kid but can't recall much in the way of success. I think we used 2" shells but maybe 2 1/2" - it was a long time ago. All my reading says the .410 is an experts gun not a beginners. That kind of makes sense in that with a fraction of the pellets you have to be that much more precise and the effective range is much less- maybe 30-35 yards (due to dispersion not velocity). I'd like to revisit as an adult though. I started my boys on a 20G for whatever that is worth but they're both bigger than me now.
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by ZaineB » 23 Jun 2021, 1:17 am

Diamond Jim wrote:I don't know. I've used a .410 (SMLE conversion) as a kid but can't recall much in the way of success. I think we used 2" shells but maybe 2 1/2" - it was a long time ago. All my reading says the .410 is an experts gun not a beginners. That kind of makes sense in that with a fraction of the pellets you have to be that much more precise and the effective range is much less- maybe 30-35 yards (due to dispersion not velocity). I'd like to revisit as an adult though. I started my boys on a 20G for whatever that is worth but they're both bigger than me now.




my cheap little rossi drops foxes 60m away with #4's since I was a lad.

hardly a professionals gun.
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Re: Kids shotgun gauge

Post by bigpete » 23 Jun 2021, 6:34 am

The older I get the better I was too
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