Adler design flaw

Double barrel, side by side, over-under, semi-automatic, straight-pull and lever action shotguns.

Adler design flaw

Post by Ed9362 » 19 Dec 2015, 7:47 am

Hi guys, when I got my Adler I was playing with it and I noticed that the locking lug is visible while the action is locked. I also noticed that if you don't close the lever all the way the shotgun will fire without the locking lug locking the action. When I noticed this I thought ohh well I had better fully close the action before I pull the trigger. Now a guy at work has told me that someone at his gun club had an adler Fire out of battery resulting in the failure of the firearm and significant damage to the shotgun. Luckily no one was hurt.

Have any of you guys heard of any other problems like this.
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by brett1868 » 19 Dec 2015, 11:24 am

Not exactly what I'd call a design flaw as many firearms will "Fire" without the action fully closed. Grab a bolt action and lower the bolt just enough to engage the locking lugs, pull the trigger and it'll fire OBVIOUSLY ON AN EMPTY CHAMBER. Sako bolt will drop to the locked position on an empty chamber as do the Weatherby's but I don't know what they'll do on a loaded chamber. Got me thinking now so I'll climb into the safe and check a few of the different actions on how they behave as I suspect most of them will behave like the Adler (I have an Adler so I'll double check that as well). Back soon...
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by Title_II » 19 Dec 2015, 12:03 pm

The Greens forced that modification to slow down the rapid fire new tech for "safety" ;)
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by brett1868 » 19 Dec 2015, 7:13 pm

Back....went and checked several rifles and 2 pistols and all of them will drop the hammer without the action fully closed and locked. The amount varies from a fraction of a mm on the STi pistol to being full on dangerous on the PWS Summit 22LR with its biathlon action. The Sako and Weatherby both fire with the bolt not fully lock but appear to release the firing pin in a controlled manner and my not have enough punch to strike the primer. The Glock was the best of the bunch and no chance of it firing before the slides fully home. If I get bored tomorrow I'll prime a few cases and see if I can get then to fire prematurely. The DTA HTI on the other hand I think will fire and fail unsafe and I previously had a problem with it when I squeezed the trigger enough to take up the very small amount of creep before the target moved. On opening the bolt it fired, scared the living crap outta me and thankfully it was pointing in a safe direction or it could have been very messy.

A good observation Ed but not a design flaw by any means as a good solicitor will point to the shooters inability to properly operate the firearm as per the manufactures instructions or he wasn't fully conversant with lever actions. Good that he wasn't injured and a heads up to other owners to be sure the action is fully closed prior to squeezing the trigger.
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by Ed9362 » 19 Dec 2015, 8:31 pm

I think a firearm being able to fire before it is safe to do so is a design flaw. marlin lever action firearms must have the action locked before the rifle will fire, this is what I would expect from the adler. having said that im not overly concerned about it. just wanted to see if anyone else had noticed this.
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by Title_II » 20 Dec 2015, 12:36 am

Ed9362 wrote:I think a firearm being able to fire before it is safe to do so is a design flaw. marlin lever action firearms must have the action locked before the rifle will fire, this is what I would expect from the adler. having said that im not overly concerned about it. just wanted to see if anyone else had noticed this.


I agree, but keep in mind that a shotgun shell does not operate at nearly the pressures of a rifle round. I'm actually surprised that guy's shotgun was damaged.

This is not really related and more trivia, but for those of you not very familiar with the operation of open-bolt SMGs, many of them preignite the primer prior the the cartridge being seated. Including mine.
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by GLS_1956 » 20 Dec 2015, 12:46 am

A firearm that will discharge out of battery is not something I'd want to have happen. Winchester 1897s, Model 12s and Model 61s, all pump action guns, the first two being shotguns and the latter a 22 rimfire, all lack disconnecters and will fire in you hold the trigger back while you cycle the action.
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by Title_II » 20 Dec 2015, 2:19 am

GLS_1956 wrote:A firearm that will discharge out of battery is not something I'd want to have happen. Winchester 1897s, Model 12s and Model 61s, all pump action guns, the first two being shotguns and the latter a 22 rimfire, all lack disconnecters and will fire in you hold the trigger back while you cycle the action.


My .22 upper for my M16 fires out of battery and keeps running! :D Only maybe once every few hundred rounds. I've been accustomed to be being hit by a little spark and smoke once in a while. In one of the videos I posted you can catch an OOB during a mag dump. But that's just .22 and doesn't concern me much.

My MAX-11 uses Advanced Primer Ignition like most open bolt SMGs and all the casings come out scortched black on at least one side. I think I have probably had about 2 OOBs with it, and that's a little more concerning with a 9mm. It is built like a tank, though. It's not going to blow up. One time my buddy was shooting it and stopped, told me there was a "pop" from the ejection port. We checked it out and seemed fine and went back to shooting. About a year later I noticed the top of the ejection port was bent very slightly outward, I assume it happened again.

Sometimes the MAX-11 will somehow get a live 9mm round trapped BEHIND the bolt somehow, and it will just bounce around back there and occasionally get smashed against the rear of the receiver until take the time to clean it. Fun Fun :)
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by Oldbloke » 20 Dec 2015, 8:22 am

I agree if not fully closed its a flaw.

My marlin 3030 also required the lever to be fully closed in order for the firing pin to fire

I just went out and found the following:
Brno 22lr 3/4 closed before it will fire....probably safe
Both Marlin BO centre fire rifles 1/2 closed before it will fire.....perhaps safe, given there are large safety margins built into the strength of lugs and chamber.
Winchester BO centre fire rifle 1/5 closed or perhaps less before it will fire.....not happy with this one.
In all cases the bolts closed on firing but I'm not confident that you cant have an incident! The firing pin may be striking too slow to initiate the primer?

Edit. Just thinking logically. Since we don't hear of many incidents along these lines and truck loads of ammo is fired every year perhaps "firing pin may be striking too slow to initiate the primer" is a built in safety design? Other wise I would expect to be hearing about a lot of incidents with poor design being a key cause of the incident. And because of litigation in the USA companies would be out of business in no time.
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by brett1868 » 21 Dec 2015, 9:55 am

Whilst it would be much safer to have a hammer lock type safety that's disengaged when the lever is fully closed I still don't agree with it being a design fault on the Adler. It's more a design shortfall by not incorporating this extra safety and probably done to cut costs. It could be successfully argued that the operator was liable for the incident as Page 3, item 6 under both sections relating to loading the firearm clearly state "Push the lever up and close the action". If the lever was fully up and the action wasn't properly closed then there's grounds for action.
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by GLS_1956 » 21 Dec 2015, 7:10 pm

Title_II wrote:
GLS_1956 wrote:A firearm that will discharge out of battery is not something I'd want to have happen. Winchester 1897s, Model 12s and Model 61s, all pump action guns, the first two being shotguns and the latter a 22 rimfire, all lack disconnecters and will fire in you hold the trigger back while you cycle the action.


My .22 upper for my M16 fires out of battery and keeps running! :D Only maybe once every few hundred rounds. I've been accustomed to be being hit by a little spark and smoke once in a while. In one of the videos I posted you can catch an OOB during a mag dump. But that's just .22 and doesn't concern me much.

My MAX-11 uses Advanced Primer Ignition like most open bolt SMGs and all the casings come out scortched black on at least one side. I think I have probably had about 2 OOBs with it, and that's a little more concerning with a 9mm. It is built like a tank, though. It's not going to blow up. One time my buddy was shooting it and stopped, told me there was a "pop" from the ejection port. We checked it out and seemed fine and went back to shooting. About a year later I noticed the top of the ejection port was bent very slightly outward, I assume it happened again.

Sometimes the MAX-11 will somehow get a live 9mm round trapped BEHIND the bolt somehow, and it will just bounce around back there and occasionally get smashed against the rear of the receiver until take the time to clean it. Fun Fun :)


A firearm that is designed to use advance primer ignition is not firing out of battery, since it was designed that way, My dad's Model 61 Winchester ended up getting a case of excessive headspace from being fast cycled so many times. During the late 1950 and early 1960s the Oklahoma Panhandle was over run with a population explosion of jackrabbits, much like Australia's problem with rabbits but on a much lesser scale, dad fired the Winchester so much, he guesstimates tens of thousands of rounds. That the Model 61 has a soft receiver did not help the headspace problem.
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by Oldbloke » 21 Dec 2015, 9:11 pm

My view is,,,
if a firearm can be fired with the bolt not closed enough to contain the pressure it is a design flaw.. And the idea that you place all of the blame on the user is farcical. All of th BS under the sun will not help u in the courts.
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by brett1868 » 22 Dec 2015, 8:21 am

I pulled my Adler out of the safe last night and had a play with the action to see where the lug becomes fully locked in relation to the lever position. The lug is fully engaged with at least 1/2-1" of travel left in the lever before it hits home. I'm starting to suspect that the one that allegedly misfired may have experienced a fault in the bolts locking lug but without the details its all speculation and not worth getting fired up over.
The OP coming onto a public forum and making accusations about the design of a product should be careful as it could be deemed as slander. Is he a licensed Gunsmith or have a degree in engineering? If not then how is he qualified to make such statements? My degrees are in computer science and GSD so I'm not qualified to say it's a flaw or not, possibly more a poor design then a flaw.

It may appear that I'm defending the Adler or blaming user error for the incident, I'm not. I'm at the end of a 3 year legal battle with an insurance company over injuries sustained years ago by the negligence of a third party and having to prove the other parties negligence is extremely difficult. I've been getting drilled by solicitors about "The only truth is that which you can prove". Without proof it's a flaw, it's not.

It's a good discussion this one and I respect your views :friends:
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by pomemax » 22 Dec 2015, 12:25 pm

JUST A QUICK QUESTION
How come your fingers get to be on a trigger before its in full battery and aimed at a target remind me not to shoot near you ok
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by pomemax » 22 Dec 2015, 12:25 pm

JUST A QUICK QUESTION
How come your fingers get to be on a trigger before its in full battery and aimed at a target remind me not to shoot near you ok
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by Gwion » 22 Dec 2015, 2:50 pm

^^^^^

Was thinking a similar thing.
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 22 Dec 2015, 4:45 pm

pomemax wrote:JUST A QUICK QUESTION
How come your fingers get to be on a trigger before its in full battery and aimed at a target remind me not to shoot near you ok


John wayne special mod....

Solution....everyone send me your crappy unsafe Addies.... just to be safe :thumbsup: I'll protect them :lol:
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by brett1868 » 22 Dec 2015, 5:09 pm

John wayne special mod....


I was thinking more the "Terminator" mod where I could swing it around one handed to reload it :lol:
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by KWhorenet » 27 Dec 2015, 1:01 am

Loosely on topic, is much of the recoil energy transferred against the bolt face into locking lugs normally?

More to the point, does the initial expansion of the case/shell gripping the chamber account for most recoil energy transfer? (when chamber isn't oiled).

If so, could it have a substantial effect on the perceived risk to having a round fired without the locking lug bearing surfaces fully mated (when chamber isn't oiled). I'm presuming locking lugs are more a back up than primary mechanism :unknown:
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by anthillinside » 27 Dec 2015, 8:36 am

Thinking out loud, with absolutely no engineering qualifications,
You could probably blow the back out of a cartridge with a few hundred pounds of pressure so the bold would take the brunt of the pressure under fire.
A bolt without locking lugs would be a bit like a double ended cartridge, a projectile at both ends. :unknown:
So with the multitude of actions and different designs of what is basically a breach plug you would really have to be a good engineer to make a call one way or another on this subject.
Seeing OOB incidents are rare my guess is that action locking mechanisms are designed well and truly overkill.
From what I know about the tensile strength and bearing capacity of nuts and bolts you need only a surprisingly small amount of steel surface area contact to hold massive amount of pressure.
I’d guess you’d only need about 10% of the total locking area of most bolt locking lugs to hold firing pressure, as long as the surfaces are at 90% to the direction of that pressure.
I don’t think any of my guns will stay closed if I haven’t got the action at least that far closed, probably a who lot more.
Interesting topic.
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by Heckler303 » 27 Dec 2015, 12:18 pm

pomemax wrote:JUST A QUICK QUESTION
How come your fingers get to be on a trigger before its in full battery and aimed at a target remind me not to shoot near you ok




Even with trigger discipline and keeping away from an unsafe trigger to pull before the action is closed again, it's still a flaw.
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by pomemax » 27 Dec 2015, 7:33 pm

Yer I would tend to agree I have not looked at one yet no need is still beating the want haha
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by Oldbloke » 27 Dec 2015, 7:56 pm

In my view a firearm that can injure the user during normal use, (not including pulling the trigger) even if the user makes a mistake it has a design flaw.
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by chacka » 04 Jan 2016, 9:23 am

Title_II wrote:This is not really related and more trivia, but for those of you not very familiar with the operation of open-bolt SMGs, many of them preignite the primer prior the the cartridge being seated. Including mine.


Not that I really know anything about SMGs but that sounds like a disaster waiting to happen :unknown:
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by Tiiger » 04 Jan 2016, 9:26 am

brett1868 wrote:I'm at the end of a 3 year legal battle with an insurance company over injuries sustained years ago by the negligence of a third party and having to prove the other parties negligence is extremely difficult. I've been getting drilled by solicitors about "The only truth is that which you can prove". Without proof it's a flaw, it's not.


If understand if you don't want to say as it's ongoing, but was this a firearm related injury or other?
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by Elorion » 22 Sep 2020, 6:46 pm

I don´t know if this thread is dead but easter this year I had an accident with my brand new Adler. While shooting it exploaded right in my face resulting in a loss of 10 teeth and crusched upper jaw. As far as I know there where no problem with the ammo, no magnum or express loads just regular skeet/training.

OP, did they ever get an answer what was the cause of the malfunction?

When I got my Adler I thought it strange that It was kinda hard to get the lever to stick all the way back while cycling and shooting it. The action would be fully closed but the lever would have a 1-2 cm wiggle-room and I would have to push it all the way upp until I hear a click. You who have an Adler, is that "click" what locks tha action in place?

/Toothless
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by Oldbloke » 24 Sep 2020, 6:48 pm

Wow I can't help you with the info you are after. But I do hope you recover. I'm guessing your recovery will take a long time.
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by bladeracer » 24 Sep 2020, 7:25 pm

Elorion wrote:I don´t know if this thread is dead but easter this year I had an accident with my brand new Adler. While shooting it exploaded right in my face resulting in a loss of 10 teeth and crusched upper jaw. As far as I know there where no problem with the ammo, no magnum or express loads just regular skeet/training.

OP, did they ever get an answer what was the cause of the malfunction?

When I got my Adler I thought it strange that It was kinda hard to get the lever to stick all the way back while cycling and shooting it. The action would be fully closed but the lever would have a 1-2 cm wiggle-room and I would have to push it all the way upp until I hear a click. You who have an Adler, is that "click" what locks tha action in place?

/Toothless



Wow!
Was the gun destroyed or was it an out-battery ignition? Did part of the gun hit you or did you suffer blast damage?

I don't have the Adler, but some lever-action rifles do need that little extra pressure at the end of the stroke.
Are you thinking the gun may have fired before it was full locked?

Do not let anybody offer to take the gun or ammo for investigation, very good chance it'll go missing. Let them takes photos if they want but keep the evidence under your control.
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by Elorion » 24 Sep 2020, 11:23 pm

The gun was blown into 6 pieces, most of the damage was to the frame being completely blown into pieces. The barrel was undamaged as far as I know, it just flew a couple of meters forward. My memory is a little bit fuzzy but I think that a parts of the frame and assorted parts of the mechanism hit my face.

My belief is that it wasn´t fully locked, as discussed before in this thread. The mechanism was fully closed, that I am sure of.

As for the gun its with the police who sent it to their lab for an examination. The police have also started an investigation regarding "major cause of bodily harm", I´m Swedish so the translation might be a bit off, with me as a victim not suspect. I´m still waiting for the results.

If anyone know of more accidents like mine I would love to hear about the. Adler has made it very clear they don´t think the accident is the weapons fault so I´m kind of building a case against them.
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Re: Adler design flaw

Post by on_one_wheel » 25 Sep 2020, 11:04 am

While it wasn't an adler, A rice farmer was severely injured a couple of years back by a Turkish made ATA semi auto 12 gauge.
He suffered permanent brain damage and campaigned to have the faulty shotgun banned from Australia on safety grounds. His campaign fell def ears.

I'm tempted to get rid of my Adler due to the concerns.
I discovered that it can be fired out of battery while handling the unloaded firearm some time ago and have been worried ever since.

I hope your recovery is going well and you successfully seek compensation.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-17/ ... un/7851508
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