Adler design flaw

[KWhorenet]

Loosely on topic, is much of the recoil energy transferred against the bolt face into locking lugs normally?

More to the point, does the initial expansion of the case/shell gripping the chamber account for most recoil energy transfer? (when chamber isn't oiled).

If so, could it have a substantial effect on the perceived risk to having a round fired without the locking lug bearing surfaces fully mated (when chamber isn't oiled). I'm presuming locking lugs are more a back up than primary mechanism

[anthillinside]

Thinking out loud, with absolutely no engineering qualifications,
You could probably blow the back out of a cartridge with a few hundred pounds of pressure so the bold would take the brunt of the pressure under fire.
A bolt without locking lugs would be a bit like a double ended cartridge, a projectile at both ends.
So with the multitude of actions and different designs of what is basically a breach plug you would really have to be a good engineer to make a call one way or another on this subject.
Seeing OOB incidents are rare my guess is that action locking mechanisms are designed well and truly overkill.
From what I know about the tensile strength and bearing capacity of nuts and bolts you need only a surprisingly small amount of steel surface area contact to hold massive amount of pressure.
I’d guess you’d only need about 10% of the total locking area of most bolt locking lugs to hold firing pressure, as long as the surfaces are at 90% to the direction of that pressure.
I don’t think any of my guns will stay closed if I haven’t got the action at least that far closed, probably a who lot more.
Interesting topic.

[Heckler303]

JUST A QUICK QUESTION
How come your fingers get to be on a trigger before its in full battery and aimed at a target remind me not to shoot near you ok

Even with trigger discipline and keeping away from an unsafe trigger to pull before the action is closed again, it's still a flaw.

[pomemax]

Yer I would tend to agree I have not looked at one yet no need is still beating the want haha

[Oldbloke]

In my view a firearm that can injure the user during normal use, (not including pulling the trigger) even if the user makes a mistake it has a design flaw.

[chacka]

This is not really related and more trivia, but for those of you not very familiar with the operation of open-bolt SMGs, many of them preignite the primer prior the the cartridge being seated. Including mine.

Not that I really know anything about SMGs but that sounds like a disaster waiting to happen

[Tiiger]

I'm at the end of a 3 year legal battle with an insurance company over injuries sustained years ago by the negligence of a third party and having to prove the other parties negligence is extremely difficult. I've been getting drilled by solicitors about "The only truth is that which you can prove". Without proof it's a flaw, it's not.

If understand if you don't want to say as it's ongoing, but was this a firearm related injury or other?

[Elorion]

I don´t know if this thread is dead but easter this year I had an accident with my brand new Adler. While shooting it exploaded right in my face resulting in a loss of 10 teeth and crusched upper jaw. As far as I know there where no problem with the ammo, no magnum or express loads just regular skeet/training.

OP, did they ever get an answer what was the cause of the malfunction?

When I got my Adler I thought it strange that It was kinda hard to get the lever to stick all the way back while cycling and shooting it. The action would be fully closed but the lever would have a 1-2 cm wiggle-room and I would have to push it all the way upp until I hear a click. You who have an Adler, is that "click" what locks tha action in place?

/Toothless

[Oldbloke]

Wow I can't help you with the info you are after. But I do hope you recover. I'm guessing your recovery will take a long time.

[bladeracer]

I don´t know if this thread is dead but easter this year I had an accident with my brand new Adler. While shooting it exploaded right in my face resulting in a loss of 10 teeth and crusched upper jaw. As far as I know there where no problem with the ammo, no magnum or express loads just regular skeet/training.

OP, did they ever get an answer what was the cause of the malfunction?

When I got my Adler I thought it strange that It was kinda hard to get the lever to stick all the way back while cycling and shooting it. The action would be fully closed but the lever would have a 1-2 cm wiggle-room and I would have to push it all the way upp until I hear a click. You who have an Adler, is that "click" what locks tha action in place?

/Toothless

Wow!
Was the gun destroyed or was it an out-battery ignition? Did part of the gun hit you or did you suffer blast damage?

I don't have the Adler, but some lever-action rifles do need that little extra pressure at the end of the stroke.
Are you thinking the gun may have fired before it was full locked?

Do not let anybody offer to take the gun or ammo for investigation, very good chance it'll go missing. Let them takes photos if they want but keep the evidence under your control.

[Elorion]

The gun was blown into 6 pieces, most of the damage was to the frame being completely blown into pieces. The barrel was undamaged as far as I know, it just flew a couple of meters forward. My memory is a little bit fuzzy but I think that a parts of the frame and assorted parts of the mechanism hit my face.

My belief is that it wasn´t fully locked, as discussed before in this thread. The mechanism was fully closed, that I am sure of.

As for the gun its with the police who sent it to their lab for an examination. The police have also started an investigation regarding "major cause of bodily harm", I´m Swedish so the translation might be a bit off, with me as a victim not suspect. I´m still waiting for the results.

If anyone know of more accidents like mine I would love to hear about the. Adler has made it very clear they don´t think the accident is the weapons fault so I´m kind of building a case against them.

[on_one_wheel]

While it wasn't an adler, A rice farmer was severely injured a couple of years back by a Turkish made ATA semi auto 12 gauge.
He suffered permanent brain damage and campaigned to have the faulty shotgun banned from Australia on safety grounds. His campaign fell def ears.

I'm tempted to get rid of my Adler due to the concerns.
I discovered that it can be fired out of battery while handling the unloaded firearm some time ago and have been worried ever since.

I hope your recovery is going well and you successfully seek compensation.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-17/ ... un/7851508

images (4).jpeg (42.28 KiB) Viewed 14157 times

[marksman]

Elorian keep on it mate dont let them get away with it
lMHO if an action will fire out of battery it is unsafe and should not be on the market

l had a phone call from the legal guys of a manufacturer of a very expensive firearm maker who's rifle blew up because it fired out of battery that l witnessed
lets say the conversation was pleasant but l dont expect another call back
l wish the guy who this happened to would have been the one to contact me

remington bought people out for years because there trigger on the model 700 was flawed and fired without touching the trigger till one family would not be bought out after their son was accidentally shot dead because of this
l've had issue with the actions on remington centerfire pumps opening on firing as well

l wonder how Brett went with the trying cases with primers to see if they would go off in bolt action rifles, l have done this experiment and found that the only ones that would fire were in bolts that l have fitted speed lock kits

its a lot of work to find what you are looking for but persistence will work out for you
l dont get how money can be more important than peoples welfare, sell a better product and you will sell more
good luck with it

[Patriot]

I don´t know if this thread is dead but easter this year I had an accident with my brand new Adler. While shooting it exploaded right in my face resulting in a loss of 10 teeth and crusched upper jaw. As far as I know there where no problem with the ammo, no magnum or express loads just regular skeet/training.

OP, did they ever get an answer what was the cause of the malfunction?

When I got my Adler I thought it strange that It was kinda hard to get the lever to stick all the way back while cycling and shooting it. The action would be fully closed but the lever would have a 1-2 cm wiggle-room and I would have to push it all the way upp until I hear a click. You who have an Adler, is that "click" what locks tha action in place?

/Toothless

Farken hell mate, I wouldn’t walk out in a storm if I were you.

[TassieTiger]

Not sure if this is in any way related to the Adler experience - I have a 28” barrel on my lever and asked my local to order me a 20” - they refused and said the only way they’d do it - was to send the firearm to NIOA and have barrel matched. I don’t think this was always the case...

[Oldbloke]

Elorian keep on it mate dont let them get away with it
lMHO if an action will fire out of battery it is unsafe and should not be on the market

l had a phone call from the legal guys of a manufacturer of a very expensive firearm maker who's rifle blew up because it fired out of battery that l witnessed
lets say the conversation was pleasant but l dont expect another call back
l wish the guy who this happened to would have been the one to contact me

remington bought people out for years because there trigger on the model 700 was flawed and fired without touching the trigger till one family would not be bought out after their son was accidentally shot dead because of this
l've had issue with the actions on remington centerfire pumps opening on firing as well

l wonder how Brett went with the trying cases with primers to see if they would go off in bolt action rifles, l have done this experiment and found that the only ones that would fire were in bolts that l have fitted speed lock kits

its a lot of work to find what you are looking for but persistence will work out for you
l dont get how money can be more important than peoples welfare, sell a better product and you will sell more good luck with it

Soo, we agree on something. Very good. Unfortunately working in many industries over 20 years I have come to the very sad conclusion that it is the norm. My health is more important than the money. So I have now retired.

[Elorion]

So just to be clear, the firing-pin can strike a shotgun shell even if the mechanism is not locked in it´s forward position?

[Irish9]

I tested a few of my rifles years ago due to this concern, used primed brass and empty 22s and none of the firearms that went click fired a primer or dented a 22 without being properly locked up. In each case they would not allow the firing pin to move even though the hammer dropped.

Some of the story's above are a concern though! Be keen to know what went wrong with the Adler blow up above I use mine a lot around home and normally have a 50g magnum up the end of the tube for the fox that (almost) gets away, may start wearing glasses...

[bladeracer]

So just to be clear, the firing-pin can strike a shotgun shell even if the mechanism is not locked in it´s forward position?

Is there a Facebook group for Adler owners?
I would think an awful lot of owners would happily test their guns with snap caps, if only for their own safety. Then you have a data set across a wide range of samples in different conditions of wear, different ammunition manufacturers, environments, modifications, etc. If there is a problem it should quickly show up. It would be great to see Facebook do something useful for gun owners!

[Irish9]

OK, had a good play around with mine, it will drop the hammer from about half way closed but the firing pin did not leave any mark on a (dud) primer until it was locked up fully. It also nailed two rabbits just the way it should shortly after testing

I too would be interested to hear the results from others Adler testing, may be a fair variation in quality between them but firing out of battery is a serious concern!

[Johnny Jigsaw]

I have a brand new Adler and I was testing with snap caps. It seems when i have nothing in the chamber the lever closes fine but when i have snap caps in it doesn't close all the way and i have to put extra force and really squeeze the lever to close it. i can also fire it with it not fully closed. is it dangerous ?

Could this be because of the snap caps? because i am afraid to try it with ammo encase something bad happens.

[Diamond Jim]

John wayne special mod....

I was thinking more the "Terminator" mod where I could swing it around one handed to reload it

Guys, you have to go earlier - Chuck Connors "The Rifleman". Google it. They put a bolt/screw through the lever/triggerguard to activate the trigger as the lever closed. If you frame-by-frame the video you can pick it.

[Diamond Jim]

I have a brand new Adler and I was testing with snap caps. It seems when i have nothing in the chamber the lever closes fine but when i have snap caps in it doesn't close all the way and i have to put extra force and really squeeze the lever to close it.

I'm not familiar with the Adler design but with many lever (and bolt) guns - as it picks up a round from the magazine or shell carrier, it slides up under the extractor as the lever closes. If you drop a round into the action and close the lever, the extractor has to jump over the case rim against significant tension. That may explain the extra force needed to close the action on a snap cap. Is it the same if you feed a snap cap from the magazine? If so, the snap cap may have a thicker rim than an ordinary shell.

[Oldbloke]

"If so, the snap cap may have a thicker rim than an ordinary shell."

Sounds to me to be likely.

I wonder how the OP is going?

[LawrenceA]

Whilst it would be much safer to have a hammer lock type safety that's disengaged when the lever is fully closed I still don't agree with it being a design fault on the Adler. It's more a design shortfall by not incorporating this extra safety and probably done to cut costs. It could be successfully argued that the operator was liable for the incident as Page 3, item 6 under both sections relating to loading the firearm clearly state "Push the lever up and close the action". If the lever was fully up and the action wasn't properly closed then there's grounds for action.

I would say what happened to duty of care?
Manufactures are legally obliged to make products safe for the consumer. No snails in drink bottles and such.

[Johnny Jigsaw]

I have a brand new Adler and I was testing with snap caps. It seems when i have nothing in the chamber the lever closes fine but when i have snap caps in it doesn't close all the way and i have to put extra force and really squeeze the lever to close it.

I'm not familiar with the Adler design but with many lever (and bolt) guns - as it picks up a round from the magazine or shell carrier, it slides up under the extractor as the lever closes. If you drop a round into the action and close the lever, the extractor has to jump over the case rim against significant tension. That may explain the extra force needed to close the action on a snap cap. Is it the same if you feed a snap cap from the magazine? If so, the snap cap may have a thicker rim than an ordinary shell.

Thank you my friend. I belive you are right. i filed down the top of the snap cap just abit and it seems to close better now. Thank you

[boingk]

You know I was surprised by my recent purchase as well.

When you plant the accelerator of the Holden in 'Park' and then engage 'Drive' it accelerates rapidly and with wheelspin. It's dangerous and could injure people.

*Paul Harrel type stare* Seriously?

Guys. Learn about your firearms. Close the action fully before firing. Don't fahrk with this stuff or 'experiment' with live rounds in the chamber.

To the bloke that was reportedly injured, hope you're doing alright. Unfortunately I doubt you will recieve compensation. For your sake I hope you do though.

[SPC]

Hi All. Will up-date when I know more as not an expert by any means, but thought this should go out as my ears are still ringing and I now know what a12 gauge does to plaster and brick at close range.... Bit of work to do on my study wall tomorrow.
Let me start by saying love my Adler. Great knock about gun for the farm and does all I want it to do. Heard some foxes outside tonight and went for a stroll but couldn't find the buggers. Came back into the study and cycled the lever to remove the 3 shells, and "bang" as the lever was 2 thirds closed after the first shell was ejected. One hand on lever and the other and the other on the barrel. Nothing even close to the trigger. Not going to touch it so cant offer much more. Leaving as is and will drop off to my gunsmith tomm. and report his thoughts. Its not a maintenance issue and have probably only put 50 rounds through it, so wouldn't think wear. Anyway wont surmise, and am sure your all as careful as I when it comes to the direction of any weapon when its live, but be extra vigilant with your Adler until I know a bit more.