Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

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Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

Post by TassieTiger » 06 Dec 2018, 9:51 pm

I’ll ask anyway....Generally speaking - are larger Calibre rifles likely to be less accurate than a smaller counterpart over a medium range (2-300m), all other variables being exactly the same???

Less accurate might be an incorrect / misleading way of asking this question. It might be better framed as - is it generally more difficult to tighten up groupings with larger Calibre rounds compared to smaller calibres?? Say, If you had exact same rifles, nil wind, shooting from a bench with same scopes etc - Say a .22 something vs .3 something...OR is the shooter / recoil the main variable and if you control that, accuracy should theoretically be exactly the same?
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Re: Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

Post by AZZA'S HJ47 » 06 Dec 2018, 9:55 pm

Ultimately it is the shooter i believe if you have two rifles from the same manufacturer one in 223 and one in 308 for example you should be able to shoot the same sought of groups with the rifles. More things come into play recoil managment,flinching with larger calibres
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Re: Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

Post by Ziad » 06 Dec 2018, 10:27 pm

No, eg

Say a 243 isn't going to be more accurate than a 6.5 creedmore. Or a 6.5 creedmore more accuracy than 300wm or a 338lap or say a 223 moe accurate than a 7mm.

Generally its how the bullet is loaded the purpose and design of the bullet and how accurate the rifle is including barrel, action, trigger
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Re: Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

Post by pomemax » 06 Dec 2018, 11:19 pm

All my firearms shoot better than I do "how the bullet is loaded the purpose and design of the bullet and how accurate the rifle is including barrel, action, trigger"Ziad said it well I would add the perception of the person behind the trigger may change as they get to the larger calibres.
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Re: Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

Post by grandadbushy » 07 Dec 2018, 3:02 am

Good question TassieTiger now this might be a dumb answer
All of the above and PRACTICE, PRACTICE ,PRACTICE mate I have a 22-250 and if I do my part it's lethal I also acquired a 7mm rem mag
worked up a load for it and with a little practice I can now print the same groups as the 22-250 slightly bigger because of caliber size5 shots on 10 cent piece @100yd
As was said it all depends whether you do your bit or you can tame the fear of recoil
Good luck when you get around to it
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Re: Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

Post by bigrich » 07 Dec 2018, 4:50 am

Two different size calibers in the same type of rifle ? The only variable really is the nut behind the trigger. State of mind, mood and attitude can make a difference to how I shoot on any given day. As others have said, it’s also how the individual shooter handles the recoil . I read a article recently where kiwi deer callers back in the day favoured the 222 over larger rifles because it was so much easier to head shoot with that than deal with recoil from larger caliber. It’s practice and conditioning as well. I bin shootin 308 a lot recently, my 6.5x55 seems so much milder, and is easier for me to shoot more accurately now .If you learn from it, there’s no such thing as a dumb question
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Re: Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

Post by TassieTiger » 07 Dec 2018, 9:55 am

I actually thought - regardless of recoil (which I know is probably the biggest factor) that perhaps more powder may burn at differing rates compared to a lighter more consistent powder burn in a lighter chambering - resulting in a slightly larger grouping...
I then thought a larger projectile may also have a larger variance in spin rate due to the larger bang...which might also give inconsistent results...

There is no question that I’m more aware of the recoil when firing an 06 vs a 223 but I try and ensure it’s kept under control but I know it’s a huge facTor.
I also read somewhere that the usa Missouri artillery was shooting MOA at 38klm and I then started wondering about 338’s vs 50 cals etc - would a 50 cal shoot Moa at 300m despite that distance not being optimum for that Calibre....so much junk rolling around in my noggin lol.
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Re: Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

Post by bladeracer » 07 Dec 2018, 3:13 pm

TassieTiger wrote:I’ll ask anyway....Generally speaking - are larger Calibre rifles likely to be less accurate than a smaller counterpart over a medium range (2-300m), all other variables being exactly the same???

Less accurate might be an incorrect / misleading way of asking this question. It might be better framed as - is it generally more difficult to tighten up groupings with larger Calibre rounds compared to smaller calibres?? Say, If you had exact same rifles, nil wind, shooting from a bench with same scopes etc - Say a .22 something vs .3 something...OR is the shooter / recoil the main variable and if you control that, accuracy should theoretically be exactly the same?


I would say no, although there are specific exceptions. Some rifles and cartridges are designed to maximise their close-range performance, while compromising their longer-range ability.
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Re: Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

Post by SCJ429 » 07 Dec 2018, 5:21 pm

You are correct, it is more difficult to shoot a big boomer consistently, I have a 416 Rigby which can shoot 1.2 inch groups, it is a real chore to do load development with this rifle and getting it to recoil correctly is difficult. If it were bedded in a Benchrest stock and shot off a Farley rest it could do better. It also is difficult to get really low SD and ES numbers from it as you are burning over 100 grains of powder. It is not to say that the caliber is not inherently accurate, just hard to realise its potential.

In the main 6mm rule the roost regarding accuracy over most distances, easy to shoot and load for.
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Re: Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

Post by tom604 » 07 Dec 2018, 10:34 pm

SCJ429 wrote:You are correct, it is more difficult to shoot a big boomer consistently, I have a 416 Rigby which can shoot 1.2 inch groups, it is a real chore to do load development with this rifle and getting it to recoil correctly is difficult. If it were bedded in a Benchrest stock and shot off a Farley rest it could do better. It also is difficult to get really low SD and ES numbers from it as you are burning over 100 grains of powder. It is not to say that the caliber is not inherently accurate, just hard to realise its potential.

In the main 6mm rule the roost regarding accuracy over most distances, easy to shoot and load for.



why is it difficult to get low spread numbers? all things being equal ,primer,case, powder,projectile it should burn the same (or close to) in each case?
the only way i can think that you would get an inconsistent burn is if your case was not full? don't own a big banger, just a .308, so not up to speed on
the ins and outs :thumbsup:
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Re: Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

Post by SCJ429 » 08 Dec 2018, 9:16 am

Short fat powder columns have the most consistant ignition. When you try to ignite over 100 grains of powder in a three inch column you must increase your variables.

The other issue for me at least is it is quite daunting sitting down week after week fine tuning a load. It is not pleasant firing off 30 rounds at the bench and being consistant for every shot. You add a grain of powder and only add 30 fps, it can take a while to find your node. I also use a 4x scope which is not conducive to fine shot placement. You also never find any volunteers who want to lay down some decent groups for you.

I know a guy who shot out the barrel on his 505 Gibbs and is on his second barrel. His retinas must be very firmly attached.
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Re: Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

Post by SCJ429 » 08 Dec 2018, 9:34 am

Perhaps slower powders like Retumbo are a little less consistant than faster powders like Varget. The other thing that is hard to measure is neck tension, big projectiles have a large surface area and are not exactly match grade. I run the cases through a full length sizer and have no ability to reduce neck tension. I also do not run the projectile all the way out to the lands, most are restricted by the magizene box length. All these thing would contribute to higher standard deviation.
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Re: Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

Post by tom604 » 08 Dec 2018, 4:57 pm

what is your fps spread? i would of thought that you would be using a slower burning powder to push a heavy projectile without the pressure spike a fast burning powder would create, is your case full or slightly empty? , neck tension as long as it is the same should not change your spread,,the same as the jump to the lands should not change your spread, may be wrong on those counts but would need the "why" explained to me. recoil would be a bitch and it would be pretty hard not to develop a flinch after a few shots :thumbsup:

may need to get Apollo involved, knows a sheet more than me :thumbsup:
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Re: Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

Post by Stix » 08 Dec 2018, 5:09 pm

Ahhh...

Apollo doesnt know squat...!!! :shock: :D

(see if that wakes him up... :lol: :thumbsup: )







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Re: Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

Post by SCJ429 » 08 Dec 2018, 7:17 pm

Neck tension is one of the main contributors to differences in pressure. The more neck tension you have, the more difficult it is to make it consistant for every round. I do not neck turn for calibers over .375, I don't have the mandrel a to do this. I also don't have bushing dies for any big bore, all I do is use graphite lube to reduce the brass grabbing the bullet.

I use a powder that is as close to the bottom of the projectile as I can get without compressing it. Big bores generally do not like reduced loads and half empty cases. Most hand loaders struggle to get a 308 to shoot with a SD in single digits. Getting a Gibbs, Jeffery or Weatherby case to do it presents additional challenges. I am not an expert and I would love to hear from someone who can consistently get their big bore to produce single digit ES and SD figures.
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Re: Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

Post by TassieTiger » 08 Dec 2018, 7:22 pm

tom604 wrote: , neck tension as long as it is the same should not change your spread :thumbsup:

may :

Is this not part of the issue? Neck tension won’t be exactly the same when Bigger surface area creates more variable?
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Re: Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

Post by tom604 » 08 Dec 2018, 8:51 pm

single digit :wtf: as in 2800 to 2810 for extreme spread? and you would have an average spread of say 6fps? :shock:
Apollo is the man you want to talk to for handloading like that,,send him a pm :thumbsup:


you are a bad man Stix :lol: :lol: :thumbsup:
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Re: Curiosity and possibly a dumb question, but....

Post by SCJ429 » 08 Dec 2018, 9:29 pm

Yes, if you get an ES of 9 and a SD of 4 then I would say she was ready to go. By comparison an ES of 35 and a SD of 24 would be a hunting load. A ES of 70 and a SD of 40 would have a ton of vertical and you would be wondering what made you think there was a node there.
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