Caseless ammunition

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Caseless ammunition

Post by Dabi » 05 Apr 2019, 10:21 pm

Hi guys, a bit of a random post. I'm planning to do a small study for a uni project on caseless ammunition, but there aren't too many widely available information on it (testing, ballistics, safety, usage and such)
If anyone knows any reputable sources with information on caseless ammo it would be greatly appreciated. :D
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Re: Caseless ammunition

Post by bladeracer » 05 Apr 2019, 10:30 pm

Dabi wrote:Hi guys, a bit of a random post. I'm planning to do a small study for a uni project on caseless ammunition, but there aren't too many widely available information on it (testing, ballistics, safety, usage and such)
If anyone knows any reputable sources with information on caseless ammo it would be greatly appreciated. :D


From distant memory there are good reasons why we don't use caseless ammunition.
Primary one is that the cartridge case is a fantastic heat sink that grabs a lot of heat from the chamber and jumps overboard with it. Caseless tends to run _very_ hot. A second problem is no extraction mechanism, so failures can be difficult to clear. Same as paper cartridges in the old days, if they don't go bang you have to somehow get it out before you can load a fresh cartridge.
I think if somebody can make a ceramic barrel work, then heat would be less of problem.
I think it was HK that did most of the modern caseless experimentation.
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Re: Caseless ammunition

Post by Wombat » 05 Apr 2019, 10:41 pm

Daisy actually had some commercially available caseless ammo in the 60's, well before H&K. They packaged it in rolls of ten to overcome the fragility and permeability inherent in caseless ammo.
But how far back do you want to go? Arguably the Dreyse system needlefire used caseless ammo, as the case was consumed.
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Re: Caseless ammunition

Post by Dabi » 05 Apr 2019, 10:57 pm

Yea i know a lot of them didn't go anywhere. But I feel like it may still have potential in the future as it has so many benefits over the conventional ammo. We might just need some new technology to improve them, whether gunpowder or the actual firearms. And I don't think needle gun ammo count haha, I mean mainly the modern developmental cartridge such as the ones used in Kraut space gun or L5 rifle.
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Re: Caseless ammunition

Post by Wombat » 05 Apr 2019, 11:32 pm

Ok, Google is your friend. Do a search.
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Re: Caseless ammunition

Post by Rod_outbak » 06 Apr 2019, 12:05 pm

My "Small Arms of the World" (12th Ed.) by Edward Ezell, has a detailed examination of the H&K G11, including the differences in loading compared to cased ammo. He also goes into some detail about the development of the caseless ammo to suit (development of the propellant brick).

Another thought would be to look into the development of "Metal-Storm", because isnt that another application of caseless ammo??

Pretty sure 'Cartridges of the world' also has some info on caseless ammo for the G11, but cant recall detail.
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Re: Caseless ammunition

Post by Dabi » 06 Apr 2019, 2:07 pm

Rod_outbak wrote:My "Small Arms of the World" (12th Ed.) by Edward Ezell, has a detailed examination of the H&K G11, including the differences in loading compared to cased ammo. He also goes into some detail about the development of the caseless ammo to suit (development of the propellant brick).

Another thought would be to look into the development of "Metal-Storm", because isnt that another application of caseless ammo??

Pretty sure 'Cartridges of the world' also has some info on caseless ammo for the G11, but cant recall detail.


lovely, thanks for the info, I'll check it out :)
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Re: Caseless ammunition

Post by wanneroo » 07 Apr 2019, 2:23 pm

Have a read of the HK Pro forum in their archives. There might be some good info on there from a now deceased H&K employee that worked on the G11 project.
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Re: Caseless ammunition

Post by on_one_wheel » 08 Apr 2019, 5:15 pm

I have one rifle that runs case-less ammunition.

It's a Euroarms 50cal muzzleloader.

My research has shown that it is rather addictive despite it being slow and clumsy compared to cased ammunition.
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On a more serious note, I to have seen the metal storm videos impressive... but no one has shown me the video of some poor sucker reloading All 24000 rounds,
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Re: Caseless ammunition

Post by brett1868 » 08 Apr 2019, 9:17 pm

How's my posting?
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Re: Caseless ammunition

Post by Baronvonrort » 08 Apr 2019, 10:17 pm

would BBs and air rifle pellets be caseless ammo?
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Re: Caseless ammunition

Post by bladeracer » 08 Apr 2019, 11:24 pm

Baronvonrort wrote:would BBs and air rifle pellets be caseless ammo?


I guess if you're happy to consider bullets to be caseless ammo you could put air-gun pellets in the same category.

I would put pellets in the same category as muzzleloaders.
Last edited by bladeracer on 14 Apr 2019, 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Caseless ammunition

Post by Dabi » 14 Apr 2019, 8:11 pm

I just finished the literature review on caseless ammo, most of my sources are from the G11 development programs and the LSAT program. Not too many detailed sources on it and especially not many up to date information on it, I reckon any new info maybe confidential and wont be available to the public for quite some time :/.
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Re: Caseless ammunition

Post by wanneroo » 15 Apr 2019, 1:08 am

Caseless ammo turned out to be a dead end street.

The US military right now is heavily invested in polymer cased ammo and has already adopted some of it in 50 cal. The next US military service rifle is looking to be a polymer cased 6.5 mm round. The US military wants the polymer cases for weight savings for soldiers and so the cases are non reloadable for the enemy to reuse for various purposes.
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Re: Caseless ammunition

Post by Dabi » 15 Apr 2019, 3:42 pm

Yeah that's a shame, I really thought it had potential. Toggle cased cartridges still needs to be extracted despite having the weight saving, so in operation it's pretty much identical to a normal cased round. Caseless ammo if done correctly can also improve cycling speed.
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Re: Caseless ammunition

Post by wanneroo » 16 Apr 2019, 12:38 am

Dabi wrote:Yeah that's a shame, I really thought it had potential. Toggle cased cartridges still needs to be extracted despite having the weight saving, so in operation it's pretty much identical to a normal cased round. Caseless ammo if done correctly can also improve cycling speed.


The Germans deployed the G11 in limited numbers at the end of the Cold War and found the ammo didn't really hold up in dirt, muck, rain, etc. Operationally it did not work.

Polymer cased is the future.
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