An Argument For The Continued Use Of Lead Ammo In Victoria

[MG5150]

Hello Everyone

Following my post yesterday about Victoria's new ban on lead ammo I wrote a short essay with 4 key arguments against the ban which you can read here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BxG ... sp=sharing

I'll summarise the main points and give you a TLDR version below, but do go to the following links and have your say against the proposed ban.

https://engage.vic.gov.au/proposed-wild ... OaSwZJw2Sg

TLDR Version

1. Attack on Hunters and Firearms Ownership: The ban on lead ammunition is a direct attack on hunters. Victoria’s laws require specific calibres and bullet weights to hunt deer ethically. If lead is banned, there may be no alternatives, leading to the government arguing that your guns are no longer needed and thus justifying their removal.


2. Inconsistent Environmental Concerns: Pest controllers and cullers can still use lead ammunition, which undermines the environmental rationale. They introduce more lead into the environment, and the carcasses are left to rot, poisoning scavengers like eagles and dingoes. Hunters, however, retrieve the carcasses, reducing environmental impact.


3. Hunting as a Food Source: In this cost-of-living crisis, hunting is a vital source of food for many Victorians. This ban is another freedom being taken away, making us more reliant on government supplies and further eroding our personal self-sufficiency.


4. Unsubstantiated Environmental Claims: We are being told that lead is toxic and that the ban is to save endangered species, but there is no solid evidence that any specific animals in Victoria are affected. The environmental data driving this ban often comes from California, a state with vastly different conditions and more significant environmental threats.

[mchughcb]

Mehhh. The argument is alternatives are too expensive. Anybody seen how much Barnes XXX is these days compared to hornady interlocks? More than double the price.

[Oldbloke]

Mehhh. The argument is alternatives are too expensive. Anybody seen how much Barnes XXX is these days compared to hornady interlocks? More than double the price.

I've built up a stock of interlocks to last me out. What now, will the Vic government replace them with copper bullets? Nope.

[Oldbloke]

What do the helicopter cullers cost?

[bladeracer]

The fact that larger calibers are required (not for ethical reasons) makes it easier to get non-lead bullets. When they start pushing for non-lead for rabbits and foxes then it'll become an issue as less options exist in the smaller calibers from what I've seen. Anything from about 7mm upwards generally has plenty of non-lead options. I'm talking about bullets of course, I have no idea what sort of supply exists for factory ammo with non-lead bullets.

The real issue is supply, and to a small degree, the cost. Brass or copper bullets are generally at least two or three times more expensive than conventional bullets, for people like myself that buy bulk cheaper bullets the cost might be as much as ten times more. But if the law changes overnight, the first few people grabbing what's on shelves will mean a dearth of bullets for the vast majority. People with lathes can turn out their own bullets with a modicum of experience - deer hunters don't use many bullets so spend a day on the lathe turning out perhaps a hundred nice bullets and you're probably set for a good few years. It wouldn't take long for CNC businesses to make room to turn out bullets, but they'll be even more expensive, at least initially. The simplest and cheapest short-term fix would likely be casting zinc bullets, not much harder than casting lead ones.

Most deer hunters don't use a lot of ammo in a year though, so even though the ammo cost might become extreme I don't think it'll be that big a blow on top of the costs we already put into going hunting. Let's say you go bush for a couple days and fire three rounds, one to check zero, one to drop a beast, and perhaps a second beast or a finishing shot. Nowadays with conventional bullets your ammo might be between $3 to $15 in the cost of the trip, for a handloader and somebody using premium factory ammo in something obscure. Having to switch to copper bullets that cost might jump to between $10 to perhaps $25 - I don't think non-lead factory ammo options are that much more expensive than premium conventional-bullet ammo. I doubt the ammo cost is going to price hunting out for 99% of deer hunters. The cost of fuel might though.

As for banning lead bullets to outlaw hunting that makes no sense to me. Many, many hunters burn a whole lot more ammo hunting rabbits, foxes and pigs than ever gets spent in deer hunting, they'd be far better served banning lead for hunting those if they want to make hunting completely unviable - even California hasn't managed that yet as far as I'm aware. In Victoria, our regs only call for "projectiles", we're not required to use bullets (the specific type of projectile we use with rifles) so anything that you can fabricate to pass through the bore of whatever firearm you're using becomes a projectile and is technically legal. Being a country with a strong DIY and "get her done" credos I think we would quickly come up with other options to do the job.

1. Attack on Hunters and Firearms Ownership: The ban on lead ammunition is a direct attack on hunters. Victoria’s laws require specific calibres and bullet weights to hunt deer ethically. If lead is banned, there may be no alternatives, leading to the government arguing that your guns are no longer needed and thus justifying their removal.

[Oldbloke]

I look at it this way. If it wasn't simply a way to discourage shooting and was a legitimate environmental concern, they would provide decent HARD scientific evidence.

Not just half baked sampling results and overseas references.

[Oldbloke]

I look at it this way. If it wasn't simply a way to discourage shooting and was a legitimate environmental concern, they would provide decent HARD scientific evidence.

e.g. where are the results of blood samples?
What is the the level in the blood that causes significant health issues for the Eagles?
And how was that level determined?

None of the above is included in the report. Very light on data IMHO

Its just half baked sampling results and overseas references and opinions.

[bladeracer]

I look at it this way. If it wasn't simply a way to discourage shooting and was a legitimate environmental concern, they would provide decent HARD scientific evidence.

Not just half baked sampling results and overseas references.

I don't credit the Green-minded with much nouse, everything they think they are expert on was brainwashed into their tiny minds via the university system, straight from school. They know virtually nothing about the real world. Somebody of this ilk has been following what Cali has done to protect the condor and decided we have to do the same thing here, despite not having condor here, and no evidence that lead-contaminated meat left in the bush affects any of our native wildlife. These people love burning public money on research that goes nowhere, why wouldn't they have done some research on this?

It's possible you are correct and that it's purely an attempt to stop hunting, but it seems a backward way of going about it. We have a lot of deer hunters in Vic, but they use very little ammo. 52,000 deer hunters, hunting just ten days each year, and taking just 4 deer each per year - that's maybe 150,000 bullets left in meat in the bush (not all of them use rifles or guns, there are also bowhunters). How many of us hunt rabbits, foxes, pigs, goats, etc, and how much lead-contaminated meat is left in the bush from that, especially considering most of us simply leave these carcasses in the bush? Likewise with roo shooting, which are all head-shot and I assume the heads are not brought back with the meat.

I certainly believe the Green movement is happy to try all sorts of sneaky backdoor tricks to try to eradicate hunting, and farming, perhaps this is one of their half-baked ideas.

[mchughcb]

Barnes varmint grenades for rabbits are non lead

[bladeracer]

Barnes varmint grenades for rabbits are non lead

Yes, I think most of the bullet manufacturers offer non-lead bullets. Hornady's NTX, GMX (now discontinued) and CX bullets are also non-lead. There are even a handful of non-lead .22LR options, though none shoot very well for me.

[bigpete]

Barnes varmint grenades for rabbits are non lead

They're fun too

[animalpest]

Barnes varmint grenades for rabbits are non lead

They're fun too

And can't hit a barn door in any of my rifles

[mchughcb]

Barnes varmint grenades for rabbits are non lead

They're fun too

And can't hit a barn door in any of my rifles

Same. Don't know why but they are very poor accuracy compared to 50 or 55gr noslers, Berger's or hornady

[Finniss]

I've found gmx and tsx to be noticeably slower killing, I think this ban could ead to poor animal welfare outcomes, and less recovered game.

Would be nice if we had more alternatives such as hammers or Lehigh, I did hear about a copper jacket filled with tungsten powder today....can't remember manufacturer.