6mm 250 international

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6mm 250 international

Post by bigrich » 17 Feb 2024, 5:27 am

hey fellas . i've got a yearning for a new project and would like some opinions . i've been thinking about finding a caliber suitable for accuracy and reasonable barrel life for comps , as well as something with more poke than a 223 for culling/varmit work at distance . with good case availability . don't want much do i :D
243win sorta fits the bill , but something that's easier on barrels is what i'm after . i'd looked at 6x47rem , but getting that to feed from a magazine won't be easy unless i use a waterman in a T3 . then i've come across a old classic benchrest cartridge , thought up by mike walker to get more barrel life out of comp rifles , the 22-250 case necked up to 6mm with no other changes . you simply pull up a 243 chamber cutter 125thou short , and mill a similar amount from a 243 FLS die . that's it ,very simple . the 6mm 250 had a very good rep in bench rest at one point . there are other versions that are technically better, 6XC would be great but cases are hard to get and expensive . the 6XC has the shoulder pushed back for a longer neck and the case wall is straightened with a sharper shoulder . probably what the 243 shoulda been :P
the 6mm 250 has a reputation for being a very efficient case and doesn't give up much to the 243 in speed , accuracy is extremely good. apparently ;) .
i've looked at other options , 260rem , 6 & 6.5 manbun , but the fact i can buy a bag of 22-250 brass and just neck up is attractive .

yeah i know i should just keep it simple and use a standard 243 :roll:

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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by bladeracer » 17 Feb 2024, 7:36 am

Just knock a little off the .243 and there's no reason the barrel shouldn't outlast you, there's no requirement to run any cartridge hot, not even as hot as factory loads.
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by bigrich » 17 Feb 2024, 8:01 am

bladeracer wrote:Just knock a little off the .243 and there's no reason the barrel shouldn't outlast you, there's no requirement to run any cartridge hot, not even as hot as factory loads.


yeah , true blade . i like to tinker but ........ :lol:

6-250 takes a little case capacity away and is less overbore, whilst actually achieving a more efficient case . my smith looks after me . he wouldn't charge much to adjust a chamber/headspace and machine the base of a FLS die .
6x47 rem really interests me . i know where i can get bags of sako 222rem mag brass at the moment too . but trying to get it to feed from a rem 700 internal mag could be a can off worms . has anyone done this successfully ?

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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by deye243 » 17 Feb 2024, 10:34 am

I think you will have a wildcat if you use a 234 reamer I just measured a 243 case 0.125 back from the shoulder and its about 0.040 bigger as the 250 case has a lot more taper.
So in to the gunroom and looked up the 6 inter in one of my books from yesteryear.
These are the dimensions
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by Wyliecoyote » 17 Feb 2024, 11:04 am

I have done numerous 6 mm wildcats over the years mainly for 500 Fly, IBS 600 and 1000 yard matches. The occasional Fclass match as well. There are only two reasons to do wildcats, gain accuracy or gain speed. A third if brass flow is a consideration with the parent case. Where you are headed has been done to death for various reasons. The International died because it was neither fast enough nor accurate enough or gave any barrel life advantage. The International has two versions, one based off the 22/250 and used for 300 meter positional shooting then another based off the the 308 x 1 1/2 using the long defunct 308 small rifle primed 308 match cases made by Remington. It was also used in positional shooting and some benchrest though it was a short lived benchrest life but did eventually lead to the birth of the 6 BR Remington, not the longer Norma. 7mm BR Remington came along around the same time for pistol silhouette. The 308 x 1 1/2 was about for years winning many Varmint For Score matches in the US so that case has a lot of history and has been wildcatted down to 224 later to become the 22 BR and as a 6.5, again for pistol silhouette. Cartridges like the XC and others came about through High Power in the US. Each shooter had their own version, own proprietary cases and reamers and ridiculous cost and little gain for Joe average in a bolt gun.

The one thing you have to consider in this country is powder when looking at these mid capacity 6 mils. 2208 is too fast and is faster now with its new formula, 2209 is still too slow. Re15, 16 are somewhat better but unless you have a lot of it hoarded like myself, shipments are few and far between but NIOA is getting some in this year. The reason 6x47 Lap is just about defunct in this country is specifically because it was betwixt and between in the powder choices. Compress 2209 still not enough speed and accuracy suffered, low volume of 2208 high pressure still no speed or accuracy where a stock 6BR was just slightly slower but far more accurate using that same powder. So 6 BR becomes more popular as 2208 is perfect for bore size at that capacity. Lots of Fly shoots are won and records set with 6BR or some derivative of it. 6x47 won nothing but burnt out lots of throats early. So with the capacity around 6x47 Lapua, the case is not an issue, powder choice is. I did a a barrel right at the start of the 6x47 Lap fad. Took a very competitive 6 BR barrel and long chambered it to 6x47, turned it into an uncompetitive barrel with a gain of only 80 fps, short shifted back to 6BR and won heaps with it. So I have been down this road.

So with powder choices being so few right now the thing I would consider is a cartridge volume at 100 load density of 36 grains of 2208 and 45 grains of 2209 in 6 mm to make it worth the effort in both terms of speed and accuracy. So two cartridges come to mind, the 6 GT and the 6 SLR. I did a cartridge around 10 years ago where I wanted the speed of the Dasher but the throat life of the 6 BR. What I ended up with is virtually identical to the GT except for the 35 degree shoulder. Perfect capacity for 6mm and Re15/2208 powder and with no stress runs a 107 grain pill to 2950 fps. Alpha makes brass for the GT and Lapua is about to. I use around 35 grains of either 2208 or Re15.
The SLR is what the 243 should have been with slightly less capacity, 30 degree shoulder with a much longer neck and perfect case volume for 2209 and 6mm bore while giving a longer throat life than the 243 ever would. The beauty of the SLR is that 243 and 308 brass is everywhere and cheap. Velocity in the SLR with 107 grain pills is 3100+ fps using 2209, that being in 30 inch barrels. Another advantage of the SLR is that the brass is formed in one pass and requires no fire forming. Just load and shoot.

After years of doing wildcats and making reamers to suit, I have learnt that while case A makes X speed and shoots tiny groups, modifying case A does not necessarily lead to better accuracy or speed unless the change gets you to the place where the perfect powder or the perfect volume for the powder already in use is found. One example is the old 243. I recently put together a stock 243 for a dedicated thermal rig. Cases are cheap or made from 308 which is even cheaper, but with my stash of Reloader 26 I gain over a 150 fps with the 100 grain Speers compared to any other powder I can get from the local shop. That flattens the trajectory more than I expected over my 6/223 at 2640 fps compared to 3100 fps. Looking at initial 243 data put me off going away from the 6/223 until I saw the Speer print.

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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by bigrich » 17 Feb 2024, 3:46 pm

thanks for the replies, a real wealth of in depth information guys . especially wylie coyote . i think after digesting all that i'll just stick with a boring old 243 ;) however , tikka make 243 in 1-8 twist now as well as the standard 1-10. as i want to shoot 90-100 grain projectiles this twist would be better suited methinks
any thoughts on the 6mm creed but :unknown:

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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by deye243 » 19 Feb 2024, 2:59 am

Yes after looking in to the 6 creed in the us I will never go the 243 again and I have had 4 over the years .
I never liked the 6.5 creed but the 6 has me interested.
But then again the 243 with a 1:8 is where it should have began and has me intrigued with vld pills and with all that spin the varmint pills would explode like never before.
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by bigrich » 19 Feb 2024, 9:15 am

deye243 wrote:Yes after looking in to the 6 creed in the us I will never go the 243 again and I have had 4 over the years .
I never liked the 6.5 creed but the 6 has me interested.
But then again the 243 with a 1:8 is where it should have began and has me intrigued with vld pills and with all that spin the varmint pills would explode like never before.


despite all the negativity over creedmoor marketing , looking at it on it's merits , the case seems to be a very good design . the original page 243 had a sharper shoulder and longer neck . these issues are addressed better with the creed case . for me , trying to get a 6mm that doesn't suffer throat erosion in a obtainable commercial case is a concern with all this debate . the only negative i have with the 6.5 creed is it's long throated . i would be using 120-130 gn for my uses . i'm not interested in 1000 yard matches . the lighter projectiles would help flatten trajectory with a bit more speed . i'm looking at the 6mm creed still , component availability is nowhere near the 243win but . not many factory rifles around in 6 creed , but a simple rechamber on a tikka 243 with a 1-8 would be very doable i reckon

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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by deye243 » 19 Feb 2024, 11:11 am

bigrich wrote:
deye243 wrote:Yes after looking in to the 6 creed in the us I will never go the 243 again and I have had 4 over the years .
I never liked the 6.5 creed but the 6 has me interested.
But then again the 243 with a 1:8 is where it should have began and has me intrigued with vld pills and with all that spin the varmint pills would explode like never before.


despite all the negativity over creedmoor marketing , looking at it on it's merits , the case seems to be a very good design . the original page 243 had a sharper shoulder and longer neck . these issues are addressed better with the creed case . for me , trying to get a 6mm that doesn't suffer throat erosion in a obtainable commercial case is a concern with all this debate . the only negative i have with the 6.5 creed is it's long throated . i would be using 120-130 gn for my uses . i'm not interested in 1000 yard matches . the lighter projectiles would help flatten trajectory with a bit more speed . i'm looking at the 6mm creed still , component availability is nowhere near the 243win but . not many factory rifles around in 6 creed , but a simple rechamber on a tikka 243 with a 1-8 would be very doable i reckon

:thumbsup:

I'm not a 6.5 manbun fan but love my 260 very easy to get a 130 eldm choofing along at 2988 but then it would endure like a creed with throat life as they have to run them hot .
I run mine at 2850 and it is showing bugger all throat erosion after 900 rounds and it is still a tack driver .
Speed and pressure kills barrels I would have no problems with running a 6 creed at a modest velocity I'm thinking 65 70g at around 3400 and 85g at 3000 I think it would have good life and great accuracy.
Damn it now I am thinking about ordering a 6mm barrel
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by Wyliecoyote » 19 Feb 2024, 11:24 am

If you take a 243 barrel and run about two threads off the back, 6 Creedmoor can be done as can the SLR with either reamer. Both could be loaded with 6 Creedmoor dies and if the bum of the SLR cases got a little fat, a 243 FL die could fix that.
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by Blr243 » 19 Feb 2024, 11:44 am

Rich , what cals u got near 243 and just above and below it ? I only do two things with my 270 , factory 130 grainers from ppu. Or handloads with 90 grain tnt spreers. At 3600 plus fps It’s actually very mild to shoot. I call it my 243 super …. Not suggesting a 270 at all. Because if I remember correctly u had a less than impressive experience with the 270. The 270 with factory ammo is the rifle I want to be useing for monster boars , Only problem is I just gotta find the monster boars first
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by bigrich » 19 Feb 2024, 5:30 pm

Blr243 wrote:Rich , what cals u got near 243 and just above and below it ? I only do two things with my 270 , factory 130 grainers from ppu. Or handloads with 90 grain tnt spreers. At 3600 plus fps It’s actually very mild to shoot. I call it my 243 super …. Not suggesting a 270 at all. Because if I remember correctly u had a less than impressive experience with the 270. The 270 with factory ammo is the rifle I want to be useing for monster boars , Only problem is I just gotta find the monster boars first


:D those monster boars don't get to be big by being stupid ;) i've found solitary boars to be rather cunning and smarter than what people might expect .

with regards to calibers and rifles ,cause i've been working part time for the last couple of years i've downsized my rifle collection . i've got a 303 martini custom sporter and a rem 700 in 222 (still sorting that ) for comps . i have my laser accurate 1-12 223 tikka and my 308 musgrave (south african parker hale basically ) for hunting duties . from a practical point of view a T3 in 243 makes sense . still trying to decide if i'll get a thermal scope . the thermal on a 243 tikka would be a good match i reckon . a 260 rem is probably more effective than 243 with good accuracy and heavier projectiles, but there is a big attraction in simplicity to just buying 243 factory ammo . and yeah , i haven't had much luck with 270's :roll: might just stick a thermal on the 223 and head shoot stuff bigger than foxes :unknown:
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by bigrich » 19 Feb 2024, 5:33 pm

Wyliecoyote wrote:If you take a 243 barrel and run about two threads off the back, 6 Creedmoor can be done as can the SLR with either reamer. Both could be loaded with 6 Creedmoor dies and if the bum of the SLR cases got a little fat, a 243 FL die could fix that.


your a real wealth of info mate . only trouble is your giving more to think about ;)

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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by bigrich » 19 Feb 2024, 5:36 pm

deye243 wrote:
bigrich wrote:
deye243 wrote:Yes after looking in to the 6 creed in the us I will never go the 243 again and I have had 4 over the years .
I never liked the 6.5 creed but the 6 has me interested.
But then again the 243 with a 1:8 is where it should have began and has me intrigued with vld pills and with all that spin the varmint pills would explode like never before.


despite all the negativity over creedmoor marketing , looking at it on it's merits , the case seems to be a very good design . the original page 243 had a sharper shoulder and longer neck . these issues are addressed better with the creed case . for me , trying to get a 6mm that doesn't suffer throat erosion in a obtainable commercial case is a concern with all this debate . the only negative i have with the 6.5 creed is it's long throated . i would be using 120-130 gn for my uses . i'm not interested in 1000 yard matches . the lighter projectiles would help flatten trajectory with a bit more speed . i'm looking at the 6mm creed still , component availability is nowhere near the 243win but . not many factory rifles around in 6 creed , but a simple rechamber on a tikka 243 with a 1-8 would be very doable i reckon

:thumbsup:

I'm not a 6.5 manbun fan but love my 260 very easy to get a 130 eldm choofing along at 2988 but then it would endure like a creed with throat life as they have to run them hot .
I run mine at 2850 and it is showing bugger all throat erosion after 900 rounds and it is still a tack driver .
Speed and pressure kills barrels I would have no problems with running a 6 creed at a modest velocity I'm thinking 65 70g at around 3400 and 85g at 3000 I think it would have good life and great accuracy.
Damn it now I am thinking about ordering a 6mm barrel


i like the idea of a 260 . i had considered that , making 260 brass from 243 brass. but i've read of donut issues in the necks . have you tried this ?

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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by Wyliecoyote » 19 Feb 2024, 7:21 pm

Rich, anyone who thinks solitary boars are dumb hasn't shot enough. One night not so long ago we spotted a massive boar in a melon farm paddock from a view point about a kilometer away, completely pig proof fenced paddock except for access to other paddocks. $20ks worth of thermal between us and we never saw him again. Actually happened twice that weekend. I still cannot believe they got away on us considering the owner knows his paddocks inside out and we are both very experienced hunters with long time thermal experience.
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by deye243 » 19 Feb 2024, 10:32 pm

bigrich wrote:
deye243 wrote:
bigrich wrote:
deye243 wrote:Yes after looking in to the 6 creed in the us I will never go the 243 again and I have had 4 over the years .
I never liked the 6.5 creed but the 6 has me interested.
But then again the 243 with a 1:8 is where it should have began and has me intrigued with vld pills and with all that spin the varmint pills would explode like never before.


despite all the negativity over creedmoor marketing , looking at it on it's merits , the case seems to be a very good design . the original page 243 had a sharper shoulder and longer neck . these issues are addressed better with the creed case . for me , trying to get a 6mm that doesn't suffer throat erosion in a obtainable commercial case is a concern with all this debate . the only negative i have with the 6.5 creed is it's long throated . i would be using 120-130 gn for my uses . i'm not interested in 1000 yard matches . the lighter projectiles would help flatten trajectory with a bit more speed . i'm looking at the 6mm creed still , component availability is nowhere near the 243win but . not many factory rifles around in 6 creed , but a simple rechamber on a tikka 243 with a 1-8 would be very doable i reckon

:thumbsup:

I'm not a 6.5 manbun fan but love my 260 very easy to get a 130 eldm choofing along at 2988 but then it would endure like a creed with throat life as they have to run them hot .
I run mine at 2850 and it is showing bugger all throat erosion after 900 rounds and it is still a tack driver .
Speed and pressure kills barrels I would have no problems with running a 6 creed at a modest velocity I'm thinking 65 70g at around 3400 and 85g at 3000 I think it would have good life and great accuracy.
Damn it now I am thinking about ordering a 6mm barrel


i like the idea of a 260 . i had considered that , making 260 brass from 243 brass. but i've read of donut issues in the necks . have you tried this ?

:thumbsup:

Yep and I had donuts too but it wasn't a prob as I had the throat cut with a 0.220" free bore.
the better way to go is necking down 708 brass just a quick pass in the neck die andload and shoot .
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by Blr243 » 23 Feb 2024, 7:50 pm

Please stop talking about monster boars I’m goin hunting in 2 weeks and I’m getting excited
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by Blr243 » 23 Feb 2024, 7:58 pm

Did someone say Nioa is bringing in re powders ? Are re powders Alliant ? And does this mean we can get other Alliant powders too ? Or s as m I dreaming ?
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by bigrich » 24 Feb 2024, 8:43 am

Blr243 wrote:Please stop talking about monster boars I’m goin hunting in 2 weeks and I’m getting excited


i've warned them your coming :lol: told them where to hide . so i can get them in another month :D

back on the 6mm topic , i'm still considering the 6mm manbun . yeah i know the 243 has worked fine for years but the creed case is a very good design . with a shoulder angle that doesn't torch the throat and promotes good head spacing re accuracy . one of my local shops has a stack of 6mm creed brass for sale . hmmm . should i ;) as was pointed out rechambering a 8 twist tikka would be a easy affair
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by Border_Bloke » 28 Mar 2024, 2:10 pm

Of course the 22-250 was necked down from the 250 Savage, so you could always just go with a 250 savage. You can actually still get factory ammo for it in Aus.

I was told by someone that used to have one that the 250 Savage was closer in performance to the 223 than it was to the 243.
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by CA Dude » 23 Dec 2024, 2:14 pm

I have a 6XC. Cases can be made from 22-250 brass. When forming the brass, the end product will have a Muffin Top. The Muffin Top fireforms away with the first shot.

I have compared it to the 6mm Creed. The difference between them is very little. The body of the Creedmoor is straighter, and it will deliver a little more velocity. And of course you don't have to make it.

I built mine before the Creed was available. If I was going to do a 6mm cartridge today I would do the 6mm Creedmoor.

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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by bigrich » 23 Dec 2024, 2:32 pm

CA Dude wrote:I have a 6XC. Cases can be made from 22-250 brass. When forming the brass, the end product will have a Muffin Top. The Muffin Top fireforms away with the first shot.

I have compared it to the 6mm Creed. The difference between them is very little. The body of the Creedmoor is straighter, and it will deliver a little more velocity. And of course you don't have to make it.

I built mine before the Creed was available. If I was going to do a 6mm cartridge today I would do the 6mm Creedmoor.

Ed


i looked at the 6mm CM , i ended up doing a 250 savage on a rem 700 . i've read about the 25 creed lately , sounds like it's got a lot going for it . but 6mm has a better range of projectiles for hunting and target :thumbsup:
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by TuskerOrd » 25 Dec 2024, 9:45 am

6mm Creedmoor would be my go to, I've just built myself another 243W - just because I'm sitting on 100s of Lapua cases for the 243W. The 6mm Creedmoor outperforms the 243Win by a bit too.

25 Creedmoor - I've build several over the last few months but the 25 is still to feature, it does have an edge on the 6.5CM, but not on the 6mm CM - in my books anyway.
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by bigrich » 25 Dec 2024, 1:05 pm

TuskerOrd wrote:6mm Creedmoor would be my go to, I've just built myself another 243W - just because I'm sitting on 100s of Lapua cases for the 243W. The 6mm Creedmoor outperforms the 243Win by a bit too.

25 Creedmoor - I've build several over the last few months but the 25 is still to feature, it does have an edge on the 6.5CM, but not on the 6mm CM - in my books anyway.


how does the 6mmCM have a edge on the 25CM ? is it more the ballistics, or in terms of performance on game ? my 250sav hits stuff pretty good with a 85 nosler bt doing a bit over 3000fps . i think with the extra speed of the 85bt it's actually a better performer than the 100bt. great bullet . i wouldn't say it's good for game over 60kg though . the 250 has a almost pleasant muzzle blast compared to a 243 . more of a old school boom the the sharp crack of a 243 . it's definitely easier on the ears :)
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by TuskerOrd » 26 Dec 2024, 5:30 am

Good morning Bigrich

I do not get to hunt enough and have to shoot at steel mostly - so my answers is based on what I experience in competition. The OP was asking about a caliber for Competition shooting and I've thus answered based on that. The 25 CM beats the 6CM on paper - but in practice I've found the 6mm to be easier to shoot. The top ten spots is normally dominated by 6mms - up to now at least.

I'm shooting 6mm as well as 6.5mm in competition and have found bigger/heavier calibers to be harder work to shoot as accurate as a 6mm.

The higher energy level of the 25CM does make sense for hunting though and if I were to choose between the two for hunting, I'd go with the 25.
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by Oldbloke » 26 Dec 2024, 5:47 am

bladeracer wrote:Just knock a little off the .243 and there's no reason the barrel shouldn't outlast you, there's no requirement to run any cartridge hot, not even as hot as factory loads.


Your a mind reader.

I don't know why everyone wants to reinvent the wheel.
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by Larry » 26 Dec 2024, 6:19 am

If you are looking at 6mm then the Dasher should be in the mix it is a very accurate cartridge.
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by bigrich » 26 Dec 2024, 11:48 am

Oldbloke wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Just knock a little off the .243 and there's no reason the barrel shouldn't outlast you, there's no requirement to run any cartridge hot, not even as hot as factory loads.


Your a mind reader.

I don't know why everyone wants to reinvent the wheel.


cause it's fun and i like projects :)
i've learned lots through "doing" , this applies to cars and firearms in my case . going with something "off the shelf" is practical , but i like playing around with stuff . i built up a 250 savage so this 6mm international topic is a bit redundant . a 243 would do the same job as my 250 , but the 250 has some better qualities over the 243 . cost and component availability is not one of them however ... :lol:
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by bigrich » 26 Dec 2024, 11:50 am

Larry wrote:If you are looking at 6mm then the Dasher should be in the mix it is a very accurate cartridge.


i'd like one , but case availability and feed issues put me off some of these other alternate cartridges . 6mm br would be good too :thumbsup:
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Re: 6mm 250 international

Post by bigrich » 26 Dec 2024, 11:52 am

TuskerOrd wrote:Good morning Bigrich

I do not get to hunt enough and have to shoot at steel mostly - so my answers is based on what I experience in competition. The OP was asking about a caliber for Competition shooting and I've thus answered based on that. The 25 CM beats the 6CM on paper - but in practice I've found the 6mm to be easier to shoot. The top ten spots is normally dominated by 6mms - up to now at least.

I'm shooting 6mm as well as 6.5mm in competition and have found bigger/heavier calibers to be harder work to shoot as accurate as a 6mm.

The higher energy level of the 25CM does make sense for hunting though and if I were to choose between the two for hunting, I'd go with the 25.


thanks for your knowledge and insight mate :thumbsup:
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