Bullet construction vs weight

[Kumaabear]

What is peoples options on this:

Conventional wisdom regarding bullet weight to use on particular animals is becoming somewhat out of date in the face of modern bonded and monolithic bullet construction.

An example: Many people will automatically recommend a 180g pill for Sambar out of a 30-06.

But would a Barns TTSX 150g not kill a sambar just as dead as a 180g CoreLokt and also be flatter shooting.

Basically the question is when using a premium mono / bonded core bullet do you think its appropriate to consider going down a couple of grain weights to gain velocity and trajectory.

[bigrich]

I’ve recently done that for my 6.5x55 loads. Dropped down from 140 sst hornady to the 125 gn Nosler Partition. The 125 Nosler load goes 150 FPS faster and is a more flexible bullet on game weight according to the experts. I still have to experiment with this in the paddock. The first 2 shots go through the same hole with this load as well at 100 . More than acceptable for a hunting load

[marksman]

would a Barnes TTSX 150g not kill a sambar just as dead as a 180g CoreLokt and also be flatter shooting.

sure, but so would a 150gr CoreLokt

Basically the question is when using a premium mono / bonded core bullet do you think its appropriate to consider going down a couple of grain weights to gain velocity and trajectory.

I'm pretty sure that is the theory

I personally gave some barnes 6.5's a crack but didn't finish the test as they were causing over pressure and my barrel fouled really badly
when I cleaned the barrel out it was like shards of copper were coming out
that was my experience anyway

[bigrich]

in recent times i've tried looking into bullet construction more and how different bullets are more suitable in different situations . some folks are probably of the opinion that any old soft point will do so long as you can hit a orange sized target at 100 . yeh, in most cases that's correct, but it's not as much fun experimenting with this sort of stuff. the game varies where i go, from light framed goats and deer to pigs . i want a bullet that is acceptable in expansion and accuracy on all three . i can get insane accuracy and great speed out of 120 gn nosler ballistic tips, but to hit the shoulder on a pig it's probably going to fly to bits . be a great varmit /goat bullet but .at the other end of the scale i was getting some norma 156 gn factory ammo cheap , but no expansion at all on a goat . it's a interesting science, i reference Nathan Foster's terminal ballistic research website often on these subjects as he has done a lot of analysis on rifle calibers and bullet construction . nosler partitions are his favoured bullet, reliable expansion and weight retention on just about anything . at the moment i'm looking into 357 mag in a marlin. hp hornady xtp's or a sierra sp ? decisions, decisions

[Blr243]

Good subject to post ! I tend to start with ensuring I have enough energy to make a quick clean kill on the chosen target and I don’t want the projectile blowing up near the surface. and I want enough penetration to ensure the projectile destroys vital organs but not so much that it punch’s through and keeps going. I want all it’s energy delivered inside the target. If I can achieve this then I have done a good job of matching my projectile to the game

[Oldbloke]

This has been discussed a few times on this forum.my view is better slightly on the heavy side.
The trouble with choosing a bullet for hunting is:
Do you know the terminal velocity?
Do you know the distance?
Not sure if it will hit bones or not
Resilts could vary if the animal is undisturbed or running
Often unsure what the species will be. Ie. Your out goat shooting and a sambar jumped out of its bed
Texas heart shot or side on, do you take all shots?
PS Dont take real long shots

Lots of variables. I just tend to stay away from the cheapest, dont take long shots and never go under gunned.

[bigrich]

Good subject to post ! I tend to start with ensuring I have enough energy to make a quick clean kill on the chosen target and I don’t want the projectile blowing up near the surface. and I want enough penetration to ensure the projectile destroys vital organs but not so much that it punch’s through and keeps going. I want all it’s energy delivered inside the target. If I can achieve this then I have done a good job of matching my projectile to the game

yup, that's pretty much how i veiw things . what peeves me is some rifles don't like some projectiles. i had a sako 308 that would not group 150 gn well at all , then ya gotta start looking for another projectile . in my case heavier 165gn worked really well

[TassieTiger]

I’ve been undertaking this myself recently...with my 260 - going from 140’s to 120’s.
I wanted to check drop, FPS, and over all accuracy...but - I personally ended up getting lost in the never ending list of variables and my test range area of 300m limited my results....based on recommended energy for humane shots on small fallow - I’m thinking a better placed shot of 120gn at 3200fps might actually prove better than a 140gn travelling at 2900fps.

[bigpete]

Thia has been discussed a few times on this forum.my view is better slifgtly on the heavy side.
The trouble with choosing a bullet for hunting is:
Do you know the terminal velocity?
Do you know the distance?
Not sure if it will hit bones or not
Resilts could vary if the animal is undisturbed or running
Often unsure what the species will be. Ie. Your out goat shooting and a sambar jumped out of its bed
Texas heart shot or side on, do you take all shots?

Lots of variables. I just tend to stay away from the cheapest, dont take long shots and never go under gunned.

This !

[bigrich]

I’ve been undertaking this myself recently...with my 260 - going from 140’s to 120’s.
I wanted to check drop, FPS, and over all accuracy...but - I personally ended up getting lost in the never ending list of variables and my test range area of 300m limited my results....based on recommended energy for humane shots on small fallow - I’m thinking a better placed shot of 120gn at 3200fps might actually prove better than a 140gn travelling at 2900fps.

depends on which 120 ya talking about i guess tas. some are more for varmiting, some are more heavily constructed and need to hit something more solid for expansion . fun trying to work this stuff out isn't it

[SCJ429]

I like every bit of Sectional Density that I can get and shoot heavy for caliber bullets. You don't gain much in flat shooting by dropping back 30 grains to 150. Big Rich mentioned Nathan Forsters research and I find that this information is fantastic and gives you information from an expert on real world performance.

[straightshooter]

The requirements of hunting bullets haven't changed over 100's of years.
What has changed is the influence of advertising hype (both overt and hidden) over the mass of interested shooters.
Far more important is shooting ability, opportunity and shot placement to the successful employment of any bullet.
No "magic bullet" will compensate for any of the above.

[Kumaabear]

While I agree 100% that the marketing can make rather exaggerated claims and of course the ability of the shooter and shot placement matters the most. I am not intending to imply that there is any magic involved or that a bullet design is going to make up for a bad shot.

I am a bit of a physics nerd and I do honestly believe that the monolithic bullets that are becoming more common / mature in their design, do somewhat change the game as far as typical bullet weight choice options for a particular sized animal.

When a traditionally constructed lighter weight bullet strikes a target at a higher velocity it often has near the same energy at impact due to its higher speed than a heavier projectile, and will shoot flatter and depending on the loading have less felt recoil as well. The big negative is that there is a much higher risk that the bullet explodes on impact or shortly after due to its lighter weight construction and high impact velocity which not only destroys a lot of meat it does not allow adequate penetration to put the animal down quickly.

Wouldn't something like a Barns TTSX or one of the other similar bullets greatly mitigate that big negative regarding the bullet breaking up / lack of penetration?

If so don't you gain a flatter shooting option without really losing out anywhere except maybe in the woods where sheer speed may lead to way too much meat loss.

I'm not stating any of this as fact, just looking to see what other people think

[marksman]

there really is a hell of a lot involved in this talk, you need to look at the way the bullet is supposed to work. the barnes is supposed to open up very quickly and create petals like knives to cut it's way through the animal but the problem that you get with the stout made bullets is that there design is to penetrate and pencil through so the animal needs to bleed out similar to an arrow shot animal so you want the bullet to exit so it will bleed out quicker
the energy will knock the animal over but when you see it get up then run off so you will have to find it after waiting a suitable time to let it die and then you dont find it I wonder if you would not rather use a different projectile would have been better to let it go
IMHO shot placement is the key, if you are chest shooting you want to destroy the vitals with a bullet like the nosler ballistic tip if it shoots straight in your rifle
I have recently tried successfully the berger classic hunting projectile that are made to penetrate a few inches then spend all it's energy disintegrating inside the animal, I have to say they have worked very well but I do not do chest shots I shot 2 sambar at the base of the skull and neck so it is a bang flop

I do think that going a lighter faster shooting flatter trajectory is a good thing as long as you can shoot straight with good shot placement

[bigfellascott]

For me bullet construction is more important than weight, I've used the same weight bullet and gotten different kill performance and the only thing that is different is the construction so that rules for me and my needs.

[deye243]

For me bullet construction is more important than weight, I've used the same weight bullet and gotten different kill performance and the only thing that is different is the construction so that rules for me and my needs.

Yep i'm with you Scott . when shooting Sambar with a 7mm mag I use a 160g woodleigh and would never entertain using a 162SST unless I was shooting fallow or red .

[marksman]

For me bullet construction is more important than weight, I've used the same weight bullet and gotten different kill performance and the only thing that is different is the construction so that rules for me and my needs.

Yep i'm with you Scott . when shooting Sambar with a 7mm mag I use a 160g woodleigh and would never entertain using a 162SST unless I was shooting fallow or red .

where do you shoot them
I like the woodliegh bullets myself, I used 180gr woodliegh's for a long time in my 300wm successfully the only drawback being to much kinetic shock from the 300wm, I lost too much meat from the bruising because of the kinetic shock and that was when I did do chest shots
I have also had dismal failures from woodleighs shooting pigs and goats with my 6,5x55 using 160grainers that just penciled through and the animals just kept running away
for chest shooting big animals to eat like the sambar deer a 12 gauge with solids is the go because you can eat up to the hole they just drop
6.5 130gr accubonds have worked very well on deer for me as well, my longest shot being at 650 yards but too much meat damage because I chest shot it
better to stalk in closer and shoot it in the head or neck and take the whole thing home to eat
thats where you want a good flat shooting round

[SCJ429]

All things being equal I.e. You use the same design of bullet, the 150 grain projectile out of a 308 has a little over 200 fps over the same 180 grain projectile. There is not a lot in the ballistics differences between the two but the extra 30 grain comes in handy when you hit something.

[Bill]

Bullet construction is definitely a big consideration when choosing a hunting load.

I love heavy SD proj in a 6.5x55 or 260, think 140 Naturlis and 155gr Mega's. They just work.

I've recently been playing with 100gr TTSX in a grendel but have run into 2 issues, accuracy is s**t till the barrel has 8 to 10 down it, unfortunately I like a clean barrel so that experiment is gunna end, also when the range extends past 250m expansion will decrease and over penetration enters the equation...

[jpsauer88]

While I agree 100% that the marketing can make rather exaggerated claims and of course the ability of the shooter and shot placement matters the most. I am not intending to imply that there is any magic involved or that a bullet design is going to make up for a bad shot.

I am a bit of a physics nerd and I do honestly believe that the monolithic bullets that are becoming more common / mature in their design, do somewhat change the game as far as typical bullet weight choice options for a particular sized animal.

When a traditionally constructed lighter weight bullet strikes a target at a higher velocity it often has near the same energy at impact due to its higher speed than a heavier projectile, and will shoot flatter and depending on the loading have less felt recoil as well. The big negative is that there is a much higher risk that the bullet explodes on impact or shortly after due to its lighter weight construction and high impact velocity which not only destroys a lot of meat it does not allow adequate penetration to put the animal down quickly.

Wouldn't something like a Barns TTSX or one of the other similar bullets greatly mitigate that big negative regarding the bullet breaking up / lack of penetration?

If so don't you gain a flatter shooting option without really losing out anywhere except maybe in the woods where sheer speed may lead to way too much meat loss.

I'm not stating any of this as fact, just looking to see what other people think

I have found this to be spot on.
Weight is requied in bullets to obtain adequate penetration. Cup and core bullets dump alot of their mass into the animal resulting in a tramsfer of energy that is coverted to heat etc (this is why you see a small explosion in gel tests).
A monolithic bullet changes the rules. Cartridges are designed for cup and core. Once we use monos heavy weights become of little value. Infact, you will find people who have moved away feom monos will have tried to use the same weight choices with monos and cup and core.

Velocity is key for monos. So a 3006, should be shooting 130s at 3200fps rathwr than 168s at 2900fps. 300fps is more important in a mono to expand well and transfer energy to the animal, than penetration, knowing theough countless ballistic tests that a 130 ttsx will penetrate the equivalent to a well constructed 180g bullet.

If planning on shooting monos cartridge choice is really impacted, i own a 3006 and shoot 130ttsx at 3200fps. Results ive seen and everyone ive spoke to including forums, show - the bullet always exits. Expansion on a barnes or any bullet isnt designed to cut theough like an arrow.... its designed to increase bullet resistance and transfer energy to the animal.

Also the comment about 30grains is better than 200fps, remember the formula for calculating energy, double the weight = double the energy, double the velocity = 4x the energy.

With the ossue of cup and core bullets falling apart at high speed solved with monos, light fast bullets should be bullets of choice when shooting monos.
130s fpr 3006 and under. No point in going heavier and loosing expansion when the bullets going to exit anyway!

[Blr243]

I choose calibre and pill weight cup and core appropriate for the game and I only shoot broadside because I want the bullet to perform and I want all of the energy used up inside the chest. I don’t want exits for two reason s 1 is more humane to deliver all the energy for a faster kill and then 2 I don’t want stray pills that may travel on to cause grief elsewhere eg stock laying down in long grass Also when pigs are huddled close I don’t want pass thru that will gut shoot and only wound another pig I don’t like hp with tiny openings They may fold at the tip and perform like a fmj. Hollow points like 308 by Speer and sierra are fine ( big opening on the tip). I use v max or conventional soft points. Roughly 90 grains is perfect for the pigs cats and foxes and dogs I target. If I was targeting just small game and I was carrying a 22250 , then I would have a few heavier barns in my pocket in case I encountered pigs . That’s the only time I would need Monos. If we consider a range of game that can be taken with a cartridge eg from rabbits to Sambar. And if all I had was a 2506 Then I would be useing monos or premium bullets on a sambar because I’m already at the upper range of what I can do with that set up. This is just an example. I don’t even own a 2506 and have never hunted sambar. And the 06 probably not legal anyway ., I prefer to have a cartridge of adequate power so I can just use cup and core ethically and economically

[straightshooter]

Long ago there was a columnist in the SSAA journal who had this motto as hi masthead.
"A little powder and much lead shoots far and kills dead"

[SCJ429]

Velocity is key for monos. So a 3006, should be shooting 130s at 3200fps rathwr than 168s at 2900fps. 300fps is more important in a mono to expand well and transfer energy to the animal, than penetration, knowing theough countless ballistic tests that a 130 ttsx will penetrate the equivalent to a well constructed 180g bullet.

If planning on shooting monos cartridge choice is really impacted, i own a 3006 and shoot 130ttsx at 3200fps. Results ive seen and everyone ive spoke to including forums, show - the bullet always exits. Expansion on a barnes or any bullet isnt designed to cut theough like an arrow.... its designed to increase bullet resistance and transfer energy to the animal.

Also the comment about 30grains is better than 200fps, remember the formula for calculating energy, double the weight = double the energy, double the velocity = 4x the energy.
!

It’s not that simple, if you trade 30 grains of weight, 20% for 200 fps of speed or around 7% the benefit it usually with the heavier bullet. Some of your extra speed will be lost by the lower BC bullet. Too low a speed can stop your bullet from performing properly but high speeds with highly frangable can cause bullet blow up. Personally if I wanted to send a 180 grain bullet at 3200 fps I would select a case that could deliver that speed rather than select a lighter bullet and hope that the Barnes magic bullet construction does the job for you.

[jpsauer88]

![/quote]
It’s not that simple, if you trade 30 grains of weight, 20% for 200 fps of speed or around 7% the benefit it usually with the heavier bullet. Some of your extra speed will be lost by the lower BC bullet. Too low a speed can stop your bullet from performing properly but high speeds with highly frangable can cause bullet blow up. Personally if I wanted to send a 180 grain bullet at 3200 fps I would select a case that could deliver that speed rather than select a lighter bullet and hope that the Barnes magic bullet construction does the job for you.[/quote]

There is only 100ft/lb energy difference between the two.
If the bullet is frangibke, but i never recommended a frangible bullet i was referring specifically to monolithics. that doesn't happen with barnes/cx/gmx/etip, there not magic just monolithic bullets dont explode the way cup core does, a better constructed cup core has a thicker copper jacket, these are all copper....

In terms or bc...
180g @ 200m = 2357fps
130g @ 200m = 2655fps

180g @ 300m = 2209fps
130g @ 300m = 2406fps

The 200fps is far more important in a mono than the weight as both will penetrate the animal. Plus you get the benefit of about 3.5" less drop @ 300.

At about 500m, yes they even out, but bc is irrelevant inside 300m where 99% of hunting is done in Australia. In which case someone should really be pushing a high bc bullet.

The OP asked about bullet weight in a 3006. Not about cartrdige selection.

[mickb]

I feel too much of the premium ammo culture started due to the yanks spending all year talking about hunting and only getting to shoot a couple things a year. Makes a good magazine article to role out ever harder and more expensive bullets. In the day generous expansion and 60-80% weight retention worked fine . These days if it cant penetrate the animal, 60" of gel, 10 phonebooks+ 6" of ply without retaining 100% weight on a youtube vid its apparently a 'failure'