300 Norma, 300 RUM, 300 win, 300 WSM

[duncan61]

I would not leave anything but gun oil in any of my barrels over night.You only get one go at this and I recall when I purchased the Sweets the shop owner telling me not to leave it too long and the bottle recommends no more than 15 minutes

[duncan61]

hoppes.jpg (234.2 KiB) Viewed 5745 times

I just googled the Hoppes no 9 and I have some.The advertising for it promotes it as being able to be left in the barrel overnight which means it is weak as and is not melting the copper as effectively.I have some spare time tomorrow morning I am going to clean my rifles to see if I have residual copper

[SCJ429]

Try dropping a bullet in that Hoppes and see if it reacts with the copper, then try them same thing with the Sweets. I am betting that the Hoppes does next to nothing while the Sweets reacts well. Ballistol make an ammonia based solvent call Robosol and the instructions say to plug the muzzle of heavily fouled barrels and fill them up with the solvent, then leave over night.

[SCJ429]

Sweets 7.62 is copper solvent.Standard solvent will not melt copper.You can only leave Sweets or similar products in for 5 minutes then brush with a nylon brush and patch until all the blue is gone then use normal solvent with a copper brush and patch out then lightly oil till next time.Once you have done this you will only need to do it when accuracy starts to diminish or you feel like it.I have done this to my .222 .243 and 7mm Rem Mag you sort of get a feeling when it is time to decopper the bore again depending on useage .You may find after a super clean with a copper solvent you need to shoot 2 fouling rounds before it groups well again.This is just what I do it seems to work for me

It is not copper fouling that settles your rifle but carbon. A squeaky clean barrel will need a couple of shots to get the carbon sealing the corners of the lands. As soon as you start fouling with copper, your accuracy will drop off. Too much carbon will do the same.

You should clean your rifle with copper solvent every time you see copper fouling, even if it is only one shot. Always clean your barrel after shooting, carbon attracts water and can harm your barrel.

[duncan61]

We are agreeing on every thing.I am a plumber and have plenty of copper I will do some testing tomorrow as I am curious now

[TassieTiger]

I soaked both the 06 and the 300 in hoppes 09 for an hour and did not get any blue colour on any patches.

I then found the smallest torch and examined closely as per pics above and couldn’t see any copper on either muzzles, lands, etc.

I’m going to try and get some sweets today.
Thanks for all the advice.
Cheers.

[straightshooter]

marksman
A few comments on your post.
The article referring to Gale McMillan is a rehash of dial-up bulletin board* commentaries from him but with some things omitted. The main being his attribution to the "invention" of barrel break in to an Australian barrel maker located somewhere near Toowoomba.
It worked something like this:
Buyer: Look mate I want warranty, this barrel doesn't shoot!
Maker: My workmanship is perfect, you must have ruined it by not breaking it in properly. Go away!

As for barrel cleaning there is no single 'right way'. There is only a right outcome. That is where all jacket fouling has been removed.
The two common active ingredients in bore cleaners are ammonium hydroxide or ammonium oleate. Neither works efficiently directly on copper alone. The copper must be electrically connected to a steel substrate for there to be an effective cleaning action.
The reason for not leaving bore cleaner in a barrel for long periods is that after the carrier solvents in the bore cleaner dry out the so called salts resulting from the action of the cleaner are hygroscopic and will combine with moisture in the air to cause rust. A completely clean bore cleaner won't cause rust because it does not contain salts to initiate rust. The only way to protect a bore long term is to completely remove all copper, completely remove all tainted bore cleaner with tight patches and oil.
Sometimes you may patch out an oiled barrel after a few months or years of storage and see some green on the patch. That tells you that all the copper wasn't removed. If then you thoroughly clean the barrel and you are unlucky you may notice discolouration from etching on the barrel where the copper was. This is more commonplace with chrome-moly than with stainless.


*Hands up anybody who remembers or knows what they were.

[marksman]

I would not leave anything but gun oil in any of my barrels over night.You only get one go at this and I recall when I purchased the Sweets the shop owner telling me not to leave it too long and the bottle recommends no more than 15 minutes

sweets will not ever corrode your barrel if left longer than 15 minutes
we have already had this discussion viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9428

now how to use sweets
use the sweets on a brush, nylon or bronze no matter, scrub back and forth very vigorously turning the sweets into a whitish foam then sit
leave it for however long you want but dont let it dry out, when the copper is removed lightly oil the bore

[marksman]

you must have been typing while I was straightshooter

I get what you are saying just cant explain it like you can
and I understand about the bore becoming hygroscopic when the solvent drys out in your bore and the importance of oiling your bore after cleaning
I have no worries about leaving a bore overnight or for days with solvent in the bore but will be wetting it down and scrubbing at intervals
really though if its taking days to clean a bore it is time for a new one, even if it was new

a while ago I read the forum posts from Gale Mcmillan, it really shows how quickly something a salesman says becomes a truth
it comes back to what I said that every barrel is an individual, if it coppers up clean it but if it doesn't dont till it does, why clean a clean barrel
opens up a big can of worms "should you run your barrel in by a specific run in regime"

for those interested here are some quotes from Gale Mcmillan
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showth ... adid=60102

[TassieTiger]

Wow. Read the entire Gale thread...inspiring stuff.

[TassieTiger]

Okay - so small update to this.
Pushed some saturated patches of sweets down the barrel and left for 10 minutes - then patches out the residue...and yep. Blue.
I then looked into the muzzle and was gobsmacked - what I couldn't see before I could now clearly see...long streaks of copper chasing the rifling. Just a tiny streak on the 300wm but very clearly defined Cu lines in the 06.
Took about 15 mins to get rid of the copper streaks in the 300wm...but I had to do follow the "process" about 6 different times (2 hours) on the 06 and it still has some slight discolouration in the rifling...The strange thing to me was - I expected to see blue patches regularly but this was not the case - blue patches came out only on the first application / scrubbing of initially applying the sweets.

Every time I patched out after leaving the sweets in - I just got a black discoloration on the patch but could still see copper in the muzzle. So, I'd put another wet patch in with sweets and that would turn blue very quickly - then nylon brush with sweets in the barrel - then patch out and only carbon...and so on. Bit different to what ive seen elsewhere as cleaning expectations.

[SCJ429]

Good work, after a while it will get easier to get rid of the copper. I have a Winchester M70 which copper fouls badly after 15 or 20 shots but it still shoots well.

[TassieTiger]

Is there a point where you just cannot get to the last sliver of copper? I have attacked the 06 again this evening and despite putting in additional wet “sweets” patches - I’m not getting anymore blue but I can still see very light gold copper in the rifling? Is this as good as it now gets after kinda missing the boat on the initial copper cleans?

[pomemax]

As a last resort for removing copper or carbon I have used a turbo brush its sometimes called a gunsmiths brush you know you have hear some guy takes the firearm to a smith cause it wont shoot consistently so all the smith does is clean the thing charges him a heap say should be ok now when infact all they have done is clean out the carbon or copper the guy did not see look on youtube
here is a link to amazon to see what they look like https://www.amazon.com/Hoppes-Tornado-G ... B0000C53HA

[TassieTiger]

Gun shop recommended these as last resort - so I bought some and even they didn’t get the last reminants

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Hoppes-3-pa ... SwKhJdLvOr

[Sergeant Hartman]

I been recommended boretech court remover, it's better than hoppes

[Stix]

Isnt the copper fouling down the barrel Tassie...?
That brush wont shift it from the barrel--looks like a chamber brush...

I had that problem with a new Tikka barrel...
I shot & cleaned each shot for 5 or 6 rounds, then cleaned each 3 shots for 3-5 groups, then 5 shot groups until around the 30 or 40 round count.

The barrel started to pick up some decent copper at around the 10-15 round mark, & i couldnt shift the copper...

I got fed up with the soaking bore & cleaning because it wasnt shifting the copper (im talking 45 mins of cleaning ) & so went on to shoot another 3 shot group & cleaned immediately with heat in the barrel...that shifted a good bit of the copper, so i gave it another 5 rounds & a clean & scrub while hot & that was it...by 25 rounds it was well & truely gone & i havnt seen copper since.

Im not suggesting the heat in the barrel got rid of the copper, but im sure it helped.

So maybe try shifting the copper with some heat in the barrel...have the cleaning gear ready next to the rifle, send 5 shots down it, then immediately patch out carbon & soak & scrub while warm...patch out, then soak scrub & patch out again...
Then repeat with another 5 rnds...

Just a thought, but worth a try i rekon...

[TassieTiger]

Isnt the copper fouling down the barrel Tassie...?
That brush wont shift it from the barrel--looks like a chamber brush...

I had that problem with a new Tikka barrel...
I shot & cleaned each shot for 5 or 6 rounds, then cleaned each 3 shots for 3-5 groups, then 5 shot groups until around the 30 or 40 round count.

The barrel started to pick up some decent copper at around the 10-15 round mark, & i couldnt shift the copper...

I got fed up with the soaking bore & cleaning because it wasnt shifting the copper (im talking 45 mins of cleaning ) & so went on to shoot another 3 shot group & cleaned immediately with heat in the barrel...that shifted a good bit of the copper, so i gave it another 5 rounds & a clean & scrub while hot & that was it...by 25 rounds it was well & truely gone & i havnt seen copper since.

Im not suggesting the heat in the barrel got rid of the copper, but im sure it helped.

So maybe try shifting the copper with some heat in the barrel...have the cleaning gear ready next to the rifle, send 5 shots down it, then immediately patch out carbon & soak & scrub while warm...patch out, then soak scrub & patch out again...
Then repeat with another 5 rnds...

Just a thought, but worth a try i rekon...

Def worth a go mate and another reason to shoot a few - win / win.
Thing is, accuracy hasnt really dropped off regardless - the same factory corelokt still shoot remarkably well.
Was interesting looking at my mates tikka 300wm muzzle compared to the howa 300wm muzzle - the howa had minute streaks of copper and the tikka had zero.

[marksman]

if you want to heat your barrel up just pour boiling hot water over the outside of it

[SCJ429]

Hey Tassie, there is a guy on Ozgunsales who is selling 1100 projectiles in 30 cal for $400. He is in Tasmania, I don't know if you are close by. They are half Berger and half Speer. Might be an opportunity to get some Berger projectiles at a reasonable price.

[SCJ429]

He is also selling some nice reloading gear if you are interested, neck Turing lathe, case trimmer and concentricity gauge.

[TassieTiger]

Thanks mate - he’s a dealer down here.
Just sent him a message about a few items. Appreciate the heads up. Thanks.

[SCJ429]

How has the shoot off between your Howa and your mates Tikka going. Have you sorted a load for yourself.?

[TassieTiger]

Been laid up with a serious concussion...have barely shot the 300 at all...and it is killing me !!!!!!!!!! Hoping this weekend the fog might clear from the head and the mountains to at least get the new scope on paper and test a couple charge weights...Mr light weight Tikka has settled on 168gn norma and is shooting 70gns of ar2209 - and from some of the pics he has sent me...I have some work to do.

[SCJ429]

Sorry mate, I forgot you were a bit knocked around. The last thing you need is the shock wave from a booming magnum. Good luck with it.

[TassieTiger]

Some days are diamonds - some days are just s**t.
So mate prompted me today to get out there and have a crack at this howa 300.
I'd loaded up some 180gns earlier in week and hand test chambered - all good.

We packed up the car, drove up to site, set up targets, ranged the distance, wrote down all details, tested everything and then I sighted in the empty rifle.

I then loaded up the first hand load - a long bullet but it did fit in the magazine.
Upon closing the bolt, I thought...hmmm...that was a little tight but it still closed...so I sighted in...but before I pulled trigger - I thought, bugger it - I'll pull that round and load another as a first shot.
Then as I drew back the bolt...I was met with...a farkin empty case and a stream of AR2209 going everywhere...the bullet had jammed in the lands.
and before you ask - no - I did not have a cleaning rod with me...geeeezus this rifle does not want me to shoot the bloody thing.

Got home and just the ever lightest touch with cleaning rod knocked the projectile free...wtf...deep breaths...guess I'm loading a fraction too long.

[Stix]

Ah that sucks mate...

Did you load them to that length on purpose...?...i mean you said you chambered them...

Do you have the gear to, or have you measured the lands...?...and are you measuring the overall length of loaded rounds (to tip of bullet) or to the ogive...?...

[TassieTiger]

Ah that sucks mate...

Did you load them to that length on purpose...?...i mean you said you chambered them...

Do you have the gear to, or have you measured the lands...?...and are you measuring the overall length of loaded rounds (to tip of bullet) or to the ogive...?...

Because I’ve been a bit foggy from concussion - I wanted to keep this lot very simple - as I was initially taught. I loaded long on purpose, test chambered and kept bumping the die 1/4 a turn until the bolt would close without effort - turns out that length was over 5mm longer than Sammi max length - but the rounds did fit in the magazine by 1mm. I’ve since checked a couple other reloads and the light neck tension and rough travel might have moved a couple...as the 300wm cases I’m using is pretty tight.
This round was obviously just touching the lands and the slight twist on retraction pulled the projectile. There was almost no force required to bump it out with a rod and id think it would have fired just fine...live and learn.

Guess I know max length now lol

[Stix]

Ah that sucks mate...

Did you load them to that length on purpose...?...i mean you said you chambered them...

Do you have the gear to, or have you measured the lands...?...and are you measuring the overall length of loaded rounds (to tip of bullet) or to the ogive...?...

Because I’ve been a bit foggy from concussion - I wanted to keep this lot very simple - as I was initially taught. I loaded long on purpose, test chambered and kept bumping the die 1/4 a turn until the bolt would close without effort - turns out that length was over 5mm longer than Sammi max length - but the rounds did fit in the magazine by 1mm. I’ve since checked a couple other reloads and the light neck tension and rough travel might have moved a couple...as the 300wm cases I’m using is pretty tight.
This round was obviously just touching the lands and the slight twist on retraction pulled the projectile. There was almost no force required to bump it out with a rod and id think it would have fired just fine...live and learn.

Guess I know max length now lol

Im not the expert here...but when i load some, especially after finding the right die setting, i test the next 4 or 5 for length, & then still check every 8th or 10th one throughout the rest of the batch just to make sure things arent creeping...

You say that travel might have moved some bullets--do you mean moved them out...?...
Reason i ask is because id imagine any impact a cartridge takes in a case/ammo box would seat bullets deeper in the neck/further away from lands, rather than pull them further out the case, causing them to be longer...

Anyway...ill shut up as im not sure if you're asking/in wonder or just venting & got it all under controll.

Hope it goes well...

[TassieTiger]

No your right stix - some of the ammo was seated in further - apparently from travel, but seeing the difference side by side was really confusing the shed out of me.
It's sorted out now - I was loaded at 89.80mm and sammi was 84.80 - which was a huge difference. A mate showed me that although the 89.90 was fitting in the magazine, it was doing so at a a slight angle - so we have re seated all the bullets at 87.00mm and I'll have another crack in a few days when time allows. At 87.00mm, I'm sitting 0.8mm away from lands, so I'll have a bit to play with once OCW has been found.
Just one of those things...