300 Norma, 300 RUM, 300 win, 300 WSM

[marksman]

nice Tassie , I'm green with envy, she will be a shooter, and yea any copper?

[Stix]

Good stuff Tassie...

[TassieTiger]

Any copper ? I cleaned the barrel with brass brush, nylon brush, solvent patch, brass brush, cleaner patch, nylon brush, oiled patch, then continued patching out - until patches came out clean.
I’ve literally only shot 4 bullets out of her - so I simply put her away when returned home, should I be checking for copper already?

[SCJ429]

You need to Google Running in a new barrel. You need to baby this barrel until the copper fouling settles down or it will never shoot. All the roughness left from machining is vaporising the jacket and depositing it near the end of your barrel leaving streaks of copper on top of the lands. Get some Boretec Cu+ and start soaking that bore.

[TassieTiger]

You need to Google Running in a new barrel. You need to baby this barrel until the copper fouling settles down or it will never shoot. All the roughness left from machining is vaporising the jacket and depositing it near the end of your barrel leaving streaks of copper on top of the lands. Get some Boretec Cu+ and start soaking that bore.

So ive started googling and looking at Kreiger run in's etc.
I wasnt aware of this...I should also do the same with my 06 as well then...as that got the basic clean.
Ive go some hoppes no 9 solvent - is that not as abrasive as Boretec ? Is dedicated Bore Solvent somehow different to copper solvent ? The hoppes no 9 is stating the barrel should be coated and then left over night - this worries me leaving a solvent for so long ??
When you say baby the barrel - does this just pertain to cleaning Cu ? Should i theoretically be starting with lead projectiles only - of lighter weight and build up ?

[Sergeant Hartman]

No that means put some baby oil in it...jk

[TassieTiger]

I’ve taken over the kitchen and have bipeds, tail packs, gun parts everywhere - notes pointing down hill and soaking...missus is going nuts but I have made promises...25 mins to go lol

[duncan61]

Sweets 7.62 is copper solvent.Standard solvent will not melt copper.You can only leave Sweets or similar products in for 5 minutes then brush with a nylon brush and patch until all the blue is gone then use normal solvent with a copper brush and patch out then lightly oil till next time.Once you have done this you will only need to do it when accuracy starts to diminish or you feel like it.I have done this to my .222 .243 and 7mm Rem Mag you sort of get a feeling when it is time to decopper the bore again depending on useage .You may find after a super clean with a copper solvent you need to shoot 2 fouling rounds before it groups well again.This is just what I do it seems to work for me

[duncan61]

sweets.jpg (221.92 KiB) Viewed 5716 times

I purchased a small bottle of Sweets 7.62 in Bunbury in 1990 and still have a near full bottle You clean as per normal then put a few drops on a patch and push it through twice.The second time you will see blue which is the copper starting to melt.You have to use a nylon brush as a copper one will melt.I went to the shed and got mine cos I felt like it.Its still got the destructions on it

[SCJ429]

I have not used Hoppes copper solvent for many year but back then it was next to useless. Sweets 7.62 and other ammonia based solvents are OK. The best by far is Boretec.

Clean out the carbon and the look up the muzzle, you can see the copper, patch it, soak it and scrub it until you don't see the copper on the lands and your not getting an blue copper sulphate on your patch. One shot at a time to start with. There is a lot of cleaning involved.

That 30/06 is going to need a lot of soaking to get it clean as a whistle. You will then have to resume the running in process for it as well.

[duncan61]

I used boretec polisher when I was full on into F-class

[marksman]

When SCJ429 said to baby the barrel he means dont over heat it or shoot really hot loads in it to start

this is a good read by Gale Mcmillan from Mcmillan stocks/rifles ect
https://www.6mmbr.com/gailmcmbreakin.html

what I believe is that every rifle is different and so is every barrel, treat everyone differently
the problems that I believe cause the fouling is burrs, either on the lands from the barrel being made or from chambering
you need to look down the muzzle and see if there is any copper present after shooting before cleaning



dont just look at the colour of patches
IMHO there is no need to clean if the barrel has no copper
but when copper is present clean the bore till you can shoot quite a few shots without the bore coppering up

I have seen factory barrels take up to 80 shots before they would settle down but also seen more than one tikka be run in after 3-5 shots
tikka barrels are hand lapped but that's not to say a hand lapped barrel wont have burrs,
the polishing from lapping may not get it all out and the burr may be from chambering

there is nothing wrong with leaving your solvent in overnight or even for a couple of days
its not acid just keep brushing and wetting it down every few hours then leave it sit overnight and patch it out in the morning

the way I use solvent is to apply it on a nylon brush and give it a scrub
I use patches to get the crap out

[duncan61]

I would not leave anything but gun oil in any of my barrels over night.You only get one go at this and I recall when I purchased the Sweets the shop owner telling me not to leave it too long and the bottle recommends no more than 15 minutes

[duncan61]

hoppes.jpg (234.2 KiB) Viewed 5742 times

I just googled the Hoppes no 9 and I have some.The advertising for it promotes it as being able to be left in the barrel overnight which means it is weak as and is not melting the copper as effectively.I have some spare time tomorrow morning I am going to clean my rifles to see if I have residual copper

[SCJ429]

Try dropping a bullet in that Hoppes and see if it reacts with the copper, then try them same thing with the Sweets. I am betting that the Hoppes does next to nothing while the Sweets reacts well. Ballistol make an ammonia based solvent call Robosol and the instructions say to plug the muzzle of heavily fouled barrels and fill them up with the solvent, then leave over night.

[SCJ429]

Sweets 7.62 is copper solvent.Standard solvent will not melt copper.You can only leave Sweets or similar products in for 5 minutes then brush with a nylon brush and patch until all the blue is gone then use normal solvent with a copper brush and patch out then lightly oil till next time.Once you have done this you will only need to do it when accuracy starts to diminish or you feel like it.I have done this to my .222 .243 and 7mm Rem Mag you sort of get a feeling when it is time to decopper the bore again depending on useage .You may find after a super clean with a copper solvent you need to shoot 2 fouling rounds before it groups well again.This is just what I do it seems to work for me

It is not copper fouling that settles your rifle but carbon. A squeaky clean barrel will need a couple of shots to get the carbon sealing the corners of the lands. As soon as you start fouling with copper, your accuracy will drop off. Too much carbon will do the same.

You should clean your rifle with copper solvent every time you see copper fouling, even if it is only one shot. Always clean your barrel after shooting, carbon attracts water and can harm your barrel.

[duncan61]

We are agreeing on every thing.I am a plumber and have plenty of copper I will do some testing tomorrow as I am curious now

[TassieTiger]

I soaked both the 06 and the 300 in hoppes 09 for an hour and did not get any blue colour on any patches.

I then found the smallest torch and examined closely as per pics above and couldn’t see any copper on either muzzles, lands, etc.

I’m going to try and get some sweets today.
Thanks for all the advice.
Cheers.

[straightshooter]

marksman
A few comments on your post.
The article referring to Gale McMillan is a rehash of dial-up bulletin board* commentaries from him but with some things omitted. The main being his attribution to the "invention" of barrel break in to an Australian barrel maker located somewhere near Toowoomba.
It worked something like this:
Buyer: Look mate I want warranty, this barrel doesn't shoot!
Maker: My workmanship is perfect, you must have ruined it by not breaking it in properly. Go away!

As for barrel cleaning there is no single 'right way'. There is only a right outcome. That is where all jacket fouling has been removed.
The two common active ingredients in bore cleaners are ammonium hydroxide or ammonium oleate. Neither works efficiently directly on copper alone. The copper must be electrically connected to a steel substrate for there to be an effective cleaning action.
The reason for not leaving bore cleaner in a barrel for long periods is that after the carrier solvents in the bore cleaner dry out the so called salts resulting from the action of the cleaner are hygroscopic and will combine with moisture in the air to cause rust. A completely clean bore cleaner won't cause rust because it does not contain salts to initiate rust. The only way to protect a bore long term is to completely remove all copper, completely remove all tainted bore cleaner with tight patches and oil.
Sometimes you may patch out an oiled barrel after a few months or years of storage and see some green on the patch. That tells you that all the copper wasn't removed. If then you thoroughly clean the barrel and you are unlucky you may notice discolouration from etching on the barrel where the copper was. This is more commonplace with chrome-moly than with stainless.


*Hands up anybody who remembers or knows what they were.

[marksman]

I would not leave anything but gun oil in any of my barrels over night.You only get one go at this and I recall when I purchased the Sweets the shop owner telling me not to leave it too long and the bottle recommends no more than 15 minutes

sweets will not ever corrode your barrel if left longer than 15 minutes
we have already had this discussion viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9428

now how to use sweets
use the sweets on a brush, nylon or bronze no matter, scrub back and forth very vigorously turning the sweets into a whitish foam then sit
leave it for however long you want but dont let it dry out, when the copper is removed lightly oil the bore

[marksman]

you must have been typing while I was straightshooter

I get what you are saying just cant explain it like you can
and I understand about the bore becoming hygroscopic when the solvent drys out in your bore and the importance of oiling your bore after cleaning
I have no worries about leaving a bore overnight or for days with solvent in the bore but will be wetting it down and scrubbing at intervals
really though if its taking days to clean a bore it is time for a new one, even if it was new

a while ago I read the forum posts from Gale Mcmillan, it really shows how quickly something a salesman says becomes a truth
it comes back to what I said that every barrel is an individual, if it coppers up clean it but if it doesn't dont till it does, why clean a clean barrel
opens up a big can of worms "should you run your barrel in by a specific run in regime"

for those interested here are some quotes from Gale Mcmillan
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showth ... adid=60102

[TassieTiger]

Wow. Read the entire Gale thread...inspiring stuff.

[TassieTiger]

Okay - so small update to this.
Pushed some saturated patches of sweets down the barrel and left for 10 minutes - then patches out the residue...and yep. Blue.
I then looked into the muzzle and was gobsmacked - what I couldn't see before I could now clearly see...long streaks of copper chasing the rifling. Just a tiny streak on the 300wm but very clearly defined Cu lines in the 06.
Took about 15 mins to get rid of the copper streaks in the 300wm...but I had to do follow the "process" about 6 different times (2 hours) on the 06 and it still has some slight discolouration in the rifling...The strange thing to me was - I expected to see blue patches regularly but this was not the case - blue patches came out only on the first application / scrubbing of initially applying the sweets.

Every time I patched out after leaving the sweets in - I just got a black discoloration on the patch but could still see copper in the muzzle. So, I'd put another wet patch in with sweets and that would turn blue very quickly - then nylon brush with sweets in the barrel - then patch out and only carbon...and so on. Bit different to what ive seen elsewhere as cleaning expectations.

[SCJ429]

Good work, after a while it will get easier to get rid of the copper. I have a Winchester M70 which copper fouls badly after 15 or 20 shots but it still shoots well.

[TassieTiger]

Is there a point where you just cannot get to the last sliver of copper? I have attacked the 06 again this evening and despite putting in additional wet “sweets” patches - I’m not getting anymore blue but I can still see very light gold copper in the rifling? Is this as good as it now gets after kinda missing the boat on the initial copper cleans?

[pomemax]

As a last resort for removing copper or carbon I have used a turbo brush its sometimes called a gunsmiths brush you know you have hear some guy takes the firearm to a smith cause it wont shoot consistently so all the smith does is clean the thing charges him a heap say should be ok now when infact all they have done is clean out the carbon or copper the guy did not see look on youtube
here is a link to amazon to see what they look like https://www.amazon.com/Hoppes-Tornado-G ... B0000C53HA

[TassieTiger]

Gun shop recommended these as last resort - so I bought some and even they didn’t get the last reminants

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Hoppes-3-pa ... SwKhJdLvOr

[Sergeant Hartman]

I been recommended boretech court remover, it's better than hoppes

[Stix]

Isnt the copper fouling down the barrel Tassie...?
That brush wont shift it from the barrel--looks like a chamber brush...

I had that problem with a new Tikka barrel...
I shot & cleaned each shot for 5 or 6 rounds, then cleaned each 3 shots for 3-5 groups, then 5 shot groups until around the 30 or 40 round count.

The barrel started to pick up some decent copper at around the 10-15 round mark, & i couldnt shift the copper...

I got fed up with the soaking bore & cleaning because it wasnt shifting the copper (im talking 45 mins of cleaning ) & so went on to shoot another 3 shot group & cleaned immediately with heat in the barrel...that shifted a good bit of the copper, so i gave it another 5 rounds & a clean & scrub while hot & that was it...by 25 rounds it was well & truely gone & i havnt seen copper since.

Im not suggesting the heat in the barrel got rid of the copper, but im sure it helped.

So maybe try shifting the copper with some heat in the barrel...have the cleaning gear ready next to the rifle, send 5 shots down it, then immediately patch out carbon & soak & scrub while warm...patch out, then soak scrub & patch out again...
Then repeat with another 5 rnds...

Just a thought, but worth a try i rekon...

[TassieTiger]

Isnt the copper fouling down the barrel Tassie...?
That brush wont shift it from the barrel--looks like a chamber brush...

I had that problem with a new Tikka barrel...
I shot & cleaned each shot for 5 or 6 rounds, then cleaned each 3 shots for 3-5 groups, then 5 shot groups until around the 30 or 40 round count.

The barrel started to pick up some decent copper at around the 10-15 round mark, & i couldnt shift the copper...

I got fed up with the soaking bore & cleaning because it wasnt shifting the copper (im talking 45 mins of cleaning ) & so went on to shoot another 3 shot group & cleaned immediately with heat in the barrel...that shifted a good bit of the copper, so i gave it another 5 rounds & a clean & scrub while hot & that was it...by 25 rounds it was well & truely gone & i havnt seen copper since.

Im not suggesting the heat in the barrel got rid of the copper, but im sure it helped.

So maybe try shifting the copper with some heat in the barrel...have the cleaning gear ready next to the rifle, send 5 shots down it, then immediately patch out carbon & soak & scrub while warm...patch out, then soak scrub & patch out again...
Then repeat with another 5 rnds...

Just a thought, but worth a try i rekon...

Def worth a go mate and another reason to shoot a few - win / win.
Thing is, accuracy hasnt really dropped off regardless - the same factory corelokt still shoot remarkably well.
Was interesting looking at my mates tikka 300wm muzzle compared to the howa 300wm muzzle - the howa had minute streaks of copper and the tikka had zero.