opening a can of worms

[TassieTiger]

Yeah, as previously stated....
If the 308 and 6.5 are so similar in ballistics - where do the advantages lie? Recoil = 6.5...cost to shoot = 6.5...and so on....so not sure of point.

[sungazer]

Well physics would dictate that a similar weight projectile 147 grn Vs 150 traveling at roughly the same speed. The recoil would be the same if the rifles are also roughly the same weight. As for costs and I have both and use Lapua brass. Well brass is a bit more expensive for the 6.5C, primers are the same about 4grains less powder in the 6.5 that is 0.259 grams. That is 17 more shots per 500 grm Bottle Projectiles 6.5C are on par or more expensive as in I would shoot the Berger 155 Hybrids $54 for 50 or ELD X M at about $70 the Berger 6.5 140 $67 or ELD 140 $70 source Q-Store.

Do you just like to argue for the sake of it or is it that you dont know what you are talking about?

[marksman]

Okay, I’m kicking the can now MM , the 06 and 08 are just trying to outdo the 8x57 . It shoots a bigger bore for more energy transfer, came in a 98 Mauser , and shoots 170 -200 gn very well compared to the 308 . Uses less powder and less recoil than the 06 . The Europeans know how to design stuff, if ya want a smaller caliber for deer and such, 6.5x55 does the job

l cannot say anything against a round that came in a 98 mauser BR
you win mate you kicked the can

[SCJ429]

you are kidding, right
the kinetic energy differences between the 06 and the magnums is huge not almost
and nobody has said that the 308 is no good

With a 180 grain bullet you can stuff about 60 grains of 2213 powder In a 30/06 case. With the 300 WSM you can use about 70 grain of the same powder. Yes, almost a magnum. If I am burning 60 grain, I figure I might as well burn a little more a shot something a bit special.

Yes of course the gap is a bit wider if you compare the 30/06 to a 300 RUM or a 300/378 Weatherby. But then even the 300 Win Mag is at a fair disadvantage in comparison.

[in2anity]

Yeah, as previously stated....
If the 308 and 6.5 are so similar in ballistics - where do the advantages lie? Recoil = 6.5...cost to shoot = 6.5...and so on....so not sure of point.

You can get cheaper 30cal pills than 6.5 though - like a 110gr Speer or 125gr Speer...

[sungazer]

You can get cheaper 30cal pills than 6.5 though - like a 110gr Speer or 125gr Speer...

Of course you can and the 130s probable shoot a bit better. But if you are going to do a comparison with two cases that are so close, I feel it is better to use the components that are also close. Otherwise you are just cherry picking to get some examples that support the viewpoint you would like to push.

Its what the manufactures have been doing since time began to sell more things, different things. I think it is the educated users resposability esp on forums to try and put things more in perspective, strip away the sales pitch and do truthful comparisons.

In this case we see that there are very close similarities between the 30-06 and the 308 and in some ways even more similar in the 6.5c and the 308 they more overlap and that overlap is very similar. They are just generational changes ways to sell something new.

I think the best part of the 6.5C is the areas that it doesnt overlap so much like the lower weight projectiles 120s going fast not so much out to long range perhaps 300yrds. Then you get the advantages. You can still get bullets down near these weights in 30 cal but they loose the long thin for weight profile this is what gives some of the accuracy and BC.

[marksman]

"With a 180 grain bullet you can stuff about 60 grains of 2213 powder In a 30/06 case. With the 300 WSM you can use about 70 grain of the same powder. Yes, almost a magnum. If I am burning 60 grain, I figure I might as well burn a little more a shot something a bit special."

l dont see the connection between the 2 regarding kinetic energy, shoot a deer in the big toe with a 300wsm and it will be bruised up to its nose but not with the 30-06. the amount of powder used does not make a magnum round

"You can get cheaper 30cal pills than 6.5 though - like a 110gr Speer or 125gr Speer..."

they are nowhere near as good as any 6.5 bullet you would use in the creedmore though but you know that

"Of course you can and the 130s probable shoot a bit better"

common sungazer you know the 130gr 6.5s are going to shoot way way better than these plinking bullets for the 308, you are cracking me up

"But if you are going to do a comparison with two cases that are so close, I feel it is better to use the components that are also close. Otherwise you are just cherry picking to get some examples that support the viewpoint you would like to push."

no sungazer you are cherry picking here mate, dont handbrake either of them use them to their best advantage, the 6.5 will win
even if it is only 3"-4" at 500 its a win

"In this case we see that there are very close similarities between the 30-06 and the 308 and in some ways even more similar in the 6.5c and the 308 they more overlap and that overlap is very similar. "

rubbish where the 308 is at its limit the 30-06 is just taking off, when handloaded

BR next time give the can a bigger kick and empty the bugger, mauser 98 8x57 still a winner

[SCJ429]

"With a 180 grain bullet you can stuff about 60 grains of 2213 powder In a 30/06 case. With the 300 WSM you can use about 70 grain of the same powder. Yes, almost a magnum. If I am burning 60 grain, I figure I might as well burn a little more a shot something a bit special."

l dont see the connection between the 2 regarding kinetic energy, shoot a deer in the big toe with a 300wsm and it will be bruised up to its nose but not with the 30-06. the amount of powder used does not make a magnum round
win

Do you think that the amount of powder you can put behind a bullet contributes to the speed that the bullet obtains?

Energy is mass times speed.

The 30/06 makes about 200fps less speed than a 300 WSM with a 180 grain pill. This is about 7%.

I say that 7% is not far off a Magnum, you seem to see things differently.

[in2anity]

"You can get cheaper 30cal pills than 6.5 though - like a 110gr Speer or 125gr Speer..."

they are nowhere near as good as any 6.5 bullet you would use in the creedmore though but you know that

"Of course you can and the 130s probable shoot a bit better"

common sungazer you know the 130gr 6.5s are going to shoot way way better than these plinking bullets for the 308, you are cracking me up

Well it really depends on your application doesn’t it. And out of a decent barrel at moderate distances, the difference is probably not quite as profound as you think... even when I’m slung up, these Speer bullets outshoot my capabilities even on the 300m line, so they are easily “good enough” for me for field positional. Different story for supported shooting I suppose, where the accuracy can be realized, but we don’t all do that kind of shooting. Horses for courses is what I’m saying I guess...

[TassieTiger]

Do you just like to argue for the sake of it or is it that you dont know what you are talking about?

Read the title of the thread might give you a clue...

But just to gain a few more feet of line on the reel...
When comparing a 6.5 to a 308 - why would you utilise the same (very close) weight projectile? When CLEARLY they are optimised with different weights?, oh that’s right...so you can try and justify your argument.

Physics would dictate similar recoil - only if you want to manipulate the numbers...a 120gn 6.5 vs a 200gn 308 will put the tennis ball into the 308 camp for recoil.
Just by chance, do you work at the tax office? lol.

Generally speaking, the 6.5, when using optimal loads vs a 308 using optimal loads - will have lighter recoil. But hey - why not just say - a 308, shooting subsonic trail boss will recoil less...

Primers? Well as you know, Creedmoor takes small rifle primers vs large for 308 - so cost difference for primers. swings again to CM...as the larger rifle primers are a few dollars x per 100 different...but nice of you to gloss over this point with the comment -“ the same...”
I’ll give you the brass - 308 has been around longer(Cheaper) but my 260 lap brass was bought on special I’ll use your methodology and guess cm brass will be the same price in a couple of years,

Powder rates are less for CM - regardless of how you perceive the loads or what you shoot. 20 odd shots difference per bottle again weighs in favour of CM.

Projectiles are like arguing of calibres...but again, you negate the nominal to suit your position...
Price checks show about $10 difference per box in favour of 6.5...(ps you should shop around 6.5 ELD-M are $51,90 per 50 - if your paying 70...then it must be because you know better..)

So let’s add up a little points scoring shall we?
Recoil - 6.5.
Powder - 6.5
Brass - 308
Primers - 6.5
Projectiles - 6.5
Accuracy - well drop / drift is in favour of 6.5 at longer distances, regardless of the numbers...and I think the popularity of the Cm for distance speaks for itself...

So, the question now becomes, do you know what you talking about really....or are you just trying to justify your own statements by manipulation of base lines?

It cracks me up, that you have a shot at SC re cherry picking cost of 30 cal projectiles and you’ve done much worse with your comparisons lol.

QUACK.

[bigrich]

l cannot say anything against a round that came in a 98 mauser BR
you win mate you kicked the can

I thought I might rattle some cages with my post , purely to incite some spirited debate. As a hunting round, out to moderate range, I reckon the 8x57 has advantages. I’ve noticed that 6.5 man-bun has been brought into the discussion, and it is a great round. Depends entirely on what use you’re making cartridge comparisons on . As a target round, the 6.5CM wins over most ( 6.5 Swede is better ) ,and is great as a deer type cartridge. The cost aspect is not something I take into account too much, unless it’s one of those stupidly expensive Weatherby calibers . The cartridges I own have a use or a nostalgic aspect that appeals to me . I’ve owned a 308 sako A7 that was silly accurate ( my peep sighted 20” barreled 8x57 is more fun ) , but have yet to personally own a 30-06 . From all that I have experienced however, the 30-06 is a winner to me. But as far as a usable hunting rifle goes, at the moment I’m thinking about going one better than the 06 and building a 35 Whelen. As far as flexibility goes, you can load it down for 357 pistol bullets, or load 250 -275 gn for big stuff. Sounds good to me

[TassieTiger]

35 Whelan is a cannon....
If you wanted to remain a bit more mainstream, 30 Gibbs pushes shoulder of 3006 forward .2 or .25 inches and allows for almost 10% extra powder...I looked at one of these a while ago, 180gns well over 3000fps...

[bigrich]

35 Whelan is a cannon....
If you wanted to remain a bit more mainstream, 30 Gibbs pushes shoulder of 3006 forward .2 or .25 inches and allows for almost 10% extra powder...I looked at one of these a while ago, 180gns well over 3000fps...

From what I’ve read about the 35 Whelen, it’s the wide bore and good bullet weight that will anchor game on the spot without being overly savage to shoot. It’s a old school way of hunting ballistics using energy transfer and bullet weight rather than high projectile speed to get the job done. Read up on the 35 Whelen on Nathan foster’s website, makes for a interesting read . I have other lighter useful calibers in my safe, but there is room for a bigger thumper

[bigrich]

I have considered 358 Norma Magnum, now there’s a cannon for ya ! Hmmmm, not such a bad idea

[Sergeant Hartman]

Now now kids... remember be nice to reach other.. this is not a politics thread.

Actually the main benefit of the 6.5 creedmoor is in range of 400-800m area using a 140gr projectile it's better ballistics shines over the 30cal.

308 cannot really shoot a 200gr bullet fast enough to take advantage of the higher BC.

6.5cm is for all the internet experts that just got their first (tacticool) rifle and want to shoot 1000y in US and 1000m in AUS.... just saying.

I got a ruger 308 with a muzzle break... it's better to shoot recoil wise than my howa 6.5...Go figure that out

[TassieTiger]

I have considered 358 Norma Magnum, now there’s a cannon for ya ! Hmmmm, not such a bad idea

Now that’s a cannon lol. Was just reading up as advised - 250gns...2800fps...elk and moose to 500 yards...geeeerreeezus. Does private health cover shoulder reconstruction afterwards?

[Oldbloke]

Slightly off topic.GIF (10.97 KiB) Viewed 5620 times

Lets stay on topic eh.

[Oldbloke]

Hand shake.jpeg (44.29 KiB) Viewed 5620 times

[nightforcenxs]

im late on this thread but for brass i like lapua for my 308, i dont weight batch either easily get over 12 reloads in it pushing 168gr at 2700fps. and i use norma in my 375 H&H got up to 7 reloads in the norma brass pushing a 270gr at 2700fps primer pockets were only just getting loose i could of gone more but im playing it safe.

[marksman]

Olblokes right we have had a bit of fun and gone off topic as usual so l will bring back the original question that uncle nick was asked

Q: How does the .308 Win. compare with the .30-06 for big game hunting?
Read more at http://www.sportingshooter.com.au/ask-u ... wkgiBu8.99

his answer is

In general the .308 Win. shines with medium burning rate powders and its advantage is for target shooting. I'd choose the .30-06 any day over the .308 for hunting big game. For this reason it is very popular in Africa for plains game.
Read more at http://www.sportingshooter.com.au/ask-u ... wkgiBu8.99

obviously l have condensed his answer and uncle nick gives his reasons in the full report
http://www.sportingshooter.com.au/ask-u ... rsus-30-06

very informative and l personally agree with him wholeheartedly

l know if you were hunting in africa your 30-06 would have to be built on a mauser 98 hey BR

[marksman]

l reckon the 8x57 is a thumper and your on the right track BR

but a winny mod 70 in 30-06 like legend carlos hathcock mate think about it

Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock served as U.S marine sniper during the Vietnam conflict (1963-1973). His service as a sniper came at a time when the U.S military had abandoned sniping as a method of warfare. One man, a Lieutenant Edward (Jim) Land, held onto and promoted the concept of sniping as an effective means of combat. Land formed a sniper training and unit formation program in Vietnam, employing, among other excellent soldiers, Carlos Hathcock.

Hathcock became a legend, achieving incredible feats using a heavy barreled Winchester Model 70 chambered in .30-06. As a force multiplier, the statistics resulting from Hathcock and his team members time in the field would prove that a handful of snipers could be as effective, or sometimes more effective, than an entire battalion of infantry, or several thousand tonnes of ordnance. Hathcock went on to become a fundamental component in the modern USMC sniper training doctrine where he remains a legend to this day.

As for Hathcock's rifle, the rifle was simply what came to hand at the time and the cartridge was effective.

[bigrich]

Slightly off topic.GIF

Lets stay on topic eh.

Valid point OB you know how gun nuts get when they start talking about firearms in terms of flexibility and usability, 30-06 for the win I say . 308 is a good hunting round that lends itself better to bench rest shooting and was initially developed for use in military semi and full automatic weapons as it was easier to make a smaller action than a large one for 30-06 . Did you guys know British tanks in WW2 were chambered for 8x57 ? So they could use captured ammunition. I think they called the caliber 8x57 besa

[marksman]

ron spomer reckons the 30-06 sucks! shoot the 308 win
https://ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/30-0 ... inchester/

[Stix]

"Thirty Aught' Six"...

There are other "Aught's" out there ya know...

For example... ive got a couple of 'Aught'" cartridges too...!!!...My "Two Aught' Four"...& my Seven Aught' Eight"...



Ok im gone before something heavy & sharp gets thrown at me...

[marksman]

l think you "Aught" to be worried Stix

[bigpete]

35 Whelan is a cannon....
If you wanted to remain a bit more mainstream, 30 Gibbs pushes shoulder of 3006 forward .2 or .25 inches and allows for almost 10% extra powder...I looked at one of these a while ago, 180gns well over 3000fps...

Lol. It's not a cannon. It's pretty mild really

[SCJ429]

Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock served as U.S marine sniper during the Vietnam conflict (1963-1973).
As for Hathcock's rifle, the rifle was simply what came to hand at the time and the cartridge was effective.

Very true, there is nothing to say that if his rifle had been chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor that he would have done just as well. When you work for team green you don't have a say in your equipment. You get what you are given. I am sure that a few Marines of that era were less than impressed with the Sweet 16 and the ammo the top brass decided to provide them with.

[marksman]

his ammo was select lots of M72 30 caliber match ammo with 172-gr. FMJ boat tail bullets @ 2700 fps
the rounds used in that era were 308
the winchester rifle he used is a Model 70 National Match version made before 1940


his other sniping rifle with some info
While the current record for the longest “confirmed” sniper kill is over 2,700 yards (just over 1.5) miles, with a .338 Lapua Magnum round, for nearly 35 years the record stood not with a traditional centerfire rifle, but with a modified M2 Browning Heavy Machine Gun, affectionately known as the “Ma Duece”

The “sniper?” None other than the famous US Marine Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock III. Using a 8x scope common for the era (a Unertl), Hathcock engaged the Vietcong from a stabilized tripod mounted M2. Per the book Inside the Crosshairs: Snipers in Veitnam, by Colonel Michael Lee Lannig stated that Hathcock engaged a moving target on a bicycle at over 2,500 yards, requiring two shots.

[TassieTiger]

2500 yards with an 8x ? 2700 FPS...?

Was this really a sighted, targeted shot or a few “Hail Mary” shots from a rapid fire?? If it was a calculated shot - hats off big time. If he had of used an 06, he prob would have only needed the one shot...

[Oldbloke]

Lol. It's not a cannon. It's pretty mild really

Yep, not much more than a 30-06 necked up.