opening a can of worms

[SCJ429]

Both are very capable cases and well suited to many hunting situations. The article is rehashing the old discussion and choosing either case would work well for most people.

I see the 30/06 as almost a Magnum. For me if I wanted to burn that amount of powder I would move up to a 300 WSM, Win Mag or a RUM. Then again I don't want to buy factory ammo and can plan ahead to reload what I need. For those who buy factory ammo, buy a 308 and you won't have a problem.

[sungazer]

@SCJ429 Your right when you do the comparison it is a lot more powder for not a huge gain in speed. esp in the middle region. You would expect a greater increase like 60fps per grain.

[straightshooter]

One thing to remember about long lived freelance gun writers is they have learn't the golden rule. Don't bight the hand that feeds you.
They are only one bad review away from a situation where stuff to review drys up and with it the hunting trips and product release junkets.
If somebody gave you lots of free stuff with an expectation of more wouldn't you be inclined to be generous in your praise of their products and recommend them wherever possible.

[SCJ429]

Correct. Splitting hairs.

Marksman, so whats wrong with a 180gr bullet?

I have seen 178 grain bullets working very well on Varmints. Not seen any run off after being hit.

[marksman]

Marksman, so whats wrong with a 180gr bullet?

in a word "nothing" just opening the can a bit more it was uncle nick who said it not me

we all do know that the 30-06 was made to shoot 150gr bullets though, dont we

"In 1905, Germany adopted a light 154 grain bullet for the 8x57 at an extremely high velocity of 2890fps. The U.S, keen to embrace new technologies, immediately set about upgrading the .30-03 cartridge. A more aerodynamic 150 grain pointed projectile was created and along with this, the .30-03 case was shortened by .07 of an inch (1.8mm) to optimize the new bullet design. This was the birth of the .30 US cartridge of 1906 known today as the .30-06. The Springfield rifle maintained its original designation as the 1903 Springfield. The .30-06 remained the principle military cartridge of the US for 50 years

After the change to the .30 Ball 150 grain bullet, all military 1903 Springfield rifles were recalled, the barrels cut back by one thread turn and were re-chambered for the modified cartridge. Barrel length of the final rifle configuration was 24”. Velocity of the 150 grain .30 Ball was 2700fps, recorded at 78ft (le Boulenge Chronograph) True muzzle velocity would have been 2780fps."

this backs uncle nicks claims that the 30-06 comes to life when hand loaded these velocities are what l would expect from 180gr bullets

[marksman]

Both are very capable cases and well suited to many hunting situations. The article is rehashing the old discussion and choosing either case would work well for most people.

I see the 30/06 as almost a Magnum. For me if I wanted to burn that amount of powder I would move up to a 300 WSM, Win Mag or a RUM. Then again I don't want to buy factory ammo and can plan ahead to reload what I need. For those who buy factory ammo, buy a 308 and you won't have a problem.

you are kidding, right
the kinetic energy differences between the 06 and the magnums is huge not almost
and nobody has said that the 308 is no good

[marksman]

this could tip the can over
from the rifle add description " Webley and Scott Empire in ever popular 30-06, arguably the most versatile caliber for Australian conditions."
https://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=162185

you got anymore popcorn Oldbloke

[marksman]

I have seen 178 grain bullets working very well on Varmints. Not seen any run off after being hit.

they must be brain/neck shot's if you are not talking about shooting little animals with big cals and bullets eg... rabbits or foxes, varmints with 180gr
l have witnessed many so called heart/lung shots with a 30-06 or bigger with hefty bullets that drop the animal only to see it get up and run off
it is the nature of that type of shot, anyone who does this shot knows that
that's the reason you need to know how to track the animal after this type of shot placement

[Oldbloke]

"
After the change to the .30 Ball 150 grain bullet, all military 1903 Springfield rifles were recalled, the barrels cut back by one thread turn and were re-chambered for the modified cartridge. Barrel length of the final rifle configuration was 24”. Velocity of the 150 grain .30 Ball was 2700fps, recorded at 78ft (le Boulenge Chronograph) True muzzle velocity would have been 2780fps."

this backs uncle nicks claims that the 30-06 comes to life when hand loaded these velocities are what l would expect from 180gr bullets"

Yeh, pretty sure Im getting 2600 or there abouts with a 22" barrel. (Mild load)

[bigrich]

Okay, I’m kicking the can now MM , the 06 and 08 are just trying to outdo the 8x57 . It shoots a bigger bore for more energy transfer, came in a 98 Mauser , and shoots 170 -200 gn very well compared to the 308 . Uses less powder and less recoil than the 06 . The Europeans know how to design stuff, if ya want a smaller caliber for deer and such, 6.5x55 does the job

[TassieTiger]

I have nothing against the 308 or small penises for that matter...

Re ballistics - 6.5 vs 308.
6.5 Creedmoor vs 308 Ballistics - decent article comparing here.
https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/65-cr ... inchester/

[sungazer]

I have nothing against the 308 or small penises for that matter...

Re ballistics - 6.5 vs 308.
6.5 Creedmoor vs 308 Ballistics - decent article comparing here.
https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/65-cr ... inchester/

Yep pretty much confirms what I said an a few inches when you are talking three feet is nothing and in real life shooting what are you going to do try and hold off an extra four inches at 500 yrds on top of the 4 feet you are already holding off (Standing?) It is in the realm of target shooting and holding off is not done like that. The wind bucking capability yes again in the range of 1-2MOA. But when the wind gets up to really strong the textbook results are not always true.

The numbers in this article are indicative the results can vary considerably depending on what bullets are chosen and what speed they are shot at. There is very little in them especially in the field. I would say the velocities of the 308 are a bit slow on purpose so a point could be made.

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifl ... d-match#!/

I have a 6.5C as I really wanted to see how the cartridge performed so I have been through the process.

[TassieTiger]

Yeah, as previously stated....
If the 308 and 6.5 are so similar in ballistics - where do the advantages lie? Recoil = 6.5...cost to shoot = 6.5...and so on....so not sure of point.

[sungazer]

Well physics would dictate that a similar weight projectile 147 grn Vs 150 traveling at roughly the same speed. The recoil would be the same if the rifles are also roughly the same weight. As for costs and I have both and use Lapua brass. Well brass is a bit more expensive for the 6.5C, primers are the same about 4grains less powder in the 6.5 that is 0.259 grams. That is 17 more shots per 500 grm Bottle Projectiles 6.5C are on par or more expensive as in I would shoot the Berger 155 Hybrids $54 for 50 or ELD X M at about $70 the Berger 6.5 140 $67 or ELD 140 $70 source Q-Store.

Do you just like to argue for the sake of it or is it that you dont know what you are talking about?

[marksman]

Okay, I’m kicking the can now MM , the 06 and 08 are just trying to outdo the 8x57 . It shoots a bigger bore for more energy transfer, came in a 98 Mauser , and shoots 170 -200 gn very well compared to the 308 . Uses less powder and less recoil than the 06 . The Europeans know how to design stuff, if ya want a smaller caliber for deer and such, 6.5x55 does the job

l cannot say anything against a round that came in a 98 mauser BR
you win mate you kicked the can

[SCJ429]

you are kidding, right
the kinetic energy differences between the 06 and the magnums is huge not almost
and nobody has said that the 308 is no good

With a 180 grain bullet you can stuff about 60 grains of 2213 powder In a 30/06 case. With the 300 WSM you can use about 70 grain of the same powder. Yes, almost a magnum. If I am burning 60 grain, I figure I might as well burn a little more a shot something a bit special.

Yes of course the gap is a bit wider if you compare the 30/06 to a 300 RUM or a 300/378 Weatherby. But then even the 300 Win Mag is at a fair disadvantage in comparison.

[in2anity]

Yeah, as previously stated....
If the 308 and 6.5 are so similar in ballistics - where do the advantages lie? Recoil = 6.5...cost to shoot = 6.5...and so on....so not sure of point.

You can get cheaper 30cal pills than 6.5 though - like a 110gr Speer or 125gr Speer...

[sungazer]

You can get cheaper 30cal pills than 6.5 though - like a 110gr Speer or 125gr Speer...

Of course you can and the 130s probable shoot a bit better. But if you are going to do a comparison with two cases that are so close, I feel it is better to use the components that are also close. Otherwise you are just cherry picking to get some examples that support the viewpoint you would like to push.

Its what the manufactures have been doing since time began to sell more things, different things. I think it is the educated users resposability esp on forums to try and put things more in perspective, strip away the sales pitch and do truthful comparisons.

In this case we see that there are very close similarities between the 30-06 and the 308 and in some ways even more similar in the 6.5c and the 308 they more overlap and that overlap is very similar. They are just generational changes ways to sell something new.

I think the best part of the 6.5C is the areas that it doesnt overlap so much like the lower weight projectiles 120s going fast not so much out to long range perhaps 300yrds. Then you get the advantages. You can still get bullets down near these weights in 30 cal but they loose the long thin for weight profile this is what gives some of the accuracy and BC.

[marksman]

"With a 180 grain bullet you can stuff about 60 grains of 2213 powder In a 30/06 case. With the 300 WSM you can use about 70 grain of the same powder. Yes, almost a magnum. If I am burning 60 grain, I figure I might as well burn a little more a shot something a bit special."

l dont see the connection between the 2 regarding kinetic energy, shoot a deer in the big toe with a 300wsm and it will be bruised up to its nose but not with the 30-06. the amount of powder used does not make a magnum round

"You can get cheaper 30cal pills than 6.5 though - like a 110gr Speer or 125gr Speer..."

they are nowhere near as good as any 6.5 bullet you would use in the creedmore though but you know that

"Of course you can and the 130s probable shoot a bit better"

common sungazer you know the 130gr 6.5s are going to shoot way way better than these plinking bullets for the 308, you are cracking me up

"But if you are going to do a comparison with two cases that are so close, I feel it is better to use the components that are also close. Otherwise you are just cherry picking to get some examples that support the viewpoint you would like to push."

no sungazer you are cherry picking here mate, dont handbrake either of them use them to their best advantage, the 6.5 will win
even if it is only 3"-4" at 500 its a win

"In this case we see that there are very close similarities between the 30-06 and the 308 and in some ways even more similar in the 6.5c and the 308 they more overlap and that overlap is very similar. "

rubbish where the 308 is at its limit the 30-06 is just taking off, when handloaded

BR next time give the can a bigger kick and empty the bugger, mauser 98 8x57 still a winner

[SCJ429]

"With a 180 grain bullet you can stuff about 60 grains of 2213 powder In a 30/06 case. With the 300 WSM you can use about 70 grain of the same powder. Yes, almost a magnum. If I am burning 60 grain, I figure I might as well burn a little more a shot something a bit special."

l dont see the connection between the 2 regarding kinetic energy, shoot a deer in the big toe with a 300wsm and it will be bruised up to its nose but not with the 30-06. the amount of powder used does not make a magnum round
win

Do you think that the amount of powder you can put behind a bullet contributes to the speed that the bullet obtains?

Energy is mass times speed.

The 30/06 makes about 200fps less speed than a 300 WSM with a 180 grain pill. This is about 7%.

I say that 7% is not far off a Magnum, you seem to see things differently.

[in2anity]

"You can get cheaper 30cal pills than 6.5 though - like a 110gr Speer or 125gr Speer..."

they are nowhere near as good as any 6.5 bullet you would use in the creedmore though but you know that

"Of course you can and the 130s probable shoot a bit better"

common sungazer you know the 130gr 6.5s are going to shoot way way better than these plinking bullets for the 308, you are cracking me up

Well it really depends on your application doesn’t it. And out of a decent barrel at moderate distances, the difference is probably not quite as profound as you think... even when I’m slung up, these Speer bullets outshoot my capabilities even on the 300m line, so they are easily “good enough” for me for field positional. Different story for supported shooting I suppose, where the accuracy can be realized, but we don’t all do that kind of shooting. Horses for courses is what I’m saying I guess...

[TassieTiger]

Do you just like to argue for the sake of it or is it that you dont know what you are talking about?

Read the title of the thread might give you a clue...

But just to gain a few more feet of line on the reel...
When comparing a 6.5 to a 308 - why would you utilise the same (very close) weight projectile? When CLEARLY they are optimised with different weights?, oh that’s right...so you can try and justify your argument.

Physics would dictate similar recoil - only if you want to manipulate the numbers...a 120gn 6.5 vs a 200gn 308 will put the tennis ball into the 308 camp for recoil.
Just by chance, do you work at the tax office? lol.

Generally speaking, the 6.5, when using optimal loads vs a 308 using optimal loads - will have lighter recoil. But hey - why not just say - a 308, shooting subsonic trail boss will recoil less...

Primers? Well as you know, Creedmoor takes small rifle primers vs large for 308 - so cost difference for primers. swings again to CM...as the larger rifle primers are a few dollars x per 100 different...but nice of you to gloss over this point with the comment -“ the same...”
I’ll give you the brass - 308 has been around longer(Cheaper) but my 260 lap brass was bought on special I’ll use your methodology and guess cm brass will be the same price in a couple of years,

Powder rates are less for CM - regardless of how you perceive the loads or what you shoot. 20 odd shots difference per bottle again weighs in favour of CM.

Projectiles are like arguing of calibres...but again, you negate the nominal to suit your position...
Price checks show about $10 difference per box in favour of 6.5...(ps you should shop around 6.5 ELD-M are $51,90 per 50 - if your paying 70...then it must be because you know better..)

So let’s add up a little points scoring shall we?
Recoil - 6.5.
Powder - 6.5
Brass - 308
Primers - 6.5
Projectiles - 6.5
Accuracy - well drop / drift is in favour of 6.5 at longer distances, regardless of the numbers...and I think the popularity of the Cm for distance speaks for itself...

So, the question now becomes, do you know what you talking about really....or are you just trying to justify your own statements by manipulation of base lines?

It cracks me up, that you have a shot at SC re cherry picking cost of 30 cal projectiles and you’ve done much worse with your comparisons lol.

QUACK.

[bigrich]

l cannot say anything against a round that came in a 98 mauser BR
you win mate you kicked the can

I thought I might rattle some cages with my post , purely to incite some spirited debate. As a hunting round, out to moderate range, I reckon the 8x57 has advantages. I’ve noticed that 6.5 man-bun has been brought into the discussion, and it is a great round. Depends entirely on what use you’re making cartridge comparisons on . As a target round, the 6.5CM wins over most ( 6.5 Swede is better ) ,and is great as a deer type cartridge. The cost aspect is not something I take into account too much, unless it’s one of those stupidly expensive Weatherby calibers . The cartridges I own have a use or a nostalgic aspect that appeals to me . I’ve owned a 308 sako A7 that was silly accurate ( my peep sighted 20” barreled 8x57 is more fun ) , but have yet to personally own a 30-06 . From all that I have experienced however, the 30-06 is a winner to me. But as far as a usable hunting rifle goes, at the moment I’m thinking about going one better than the 06 and building a 35 Whelen. As far as flexibility goes, you can load it down for 357 pistol bullets, or load 250 -275 gn for big stuff. Sounds good to me

[TassieTiger]

35 Whelan is a cannon....
If you wanted to remain a bit more mainstream, 30 Gibbs pushes shoulder of 3006 forward .2 or .25 inches and allows for almost 10% extra powder...I looked at one of these a while ago, 180gns well over 3000fps...

[bigrich]

35 Whelan is a cannon....
If you wanted to remain a bit more mainstream, 30 Gibbs pushes shoulder of 3006 forward .2 or .25 inches and allows for almost 10% extra powder...I looked at one of these a while ago, 180gns well over 3000fps...

From what I’ve read about the 35 Whelen, it’s the wide bore and good bullet weight that will anchor game on the spot without being overly savage to shoot. It’s a old school way of hunting ballistics using energy transfer and bullet weight rather than high projectile speed to get the job done. Read up on the 35 Whelen on Nathan foster’s website, makes for a interesting read . I have other lighter useful calibers in my safe, but there is room for a bigger thumper

[bigrich]

I have considered 358 Norma Magnum, now there’s a cannon for ya ! Hmmmm, not such a bad idea

[Sergeant Hartman]

Now now kids... remember be nice to reach other.. this is not a politics thread.

Actually the main benefit of the 6.5 creedmoor is in range of 400-800m area using a 140gr projectile it's better ballistics shines over the 30cal.

308 cannot really shoot a 200gr bullet fast enough to take advantage of the higher BC.

6.5cm is for all the internet experts that just got their first (tacticool) rifle and want to shoot 1000y in US and 1000m in AUS.... just saying.

I got a ruger 308 with a muzzle break... it's better to shoot recoil wise than my howa 6.5...Go figure that out

[TassieTiger]

I have considered 358 Norma Magnum, now there’s a cannon for ya ! Hmmmm, not such a bad idea

Now that’s a cannon lol. Was just reading up as advised - 250gns...2800fps...elk and moose to 500 yards...geeeerreeezus. Does private health cover shoulder reconstruction afterwards?

[Oldbloke]

Slightly off topic.GIF (10.97 KiB) Viewed 5555 times

Lets stay on topic eh.

[Oldbloke]

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