opening a can of worms

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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by marksman » 09 Nov 2019, 12:40 pm

l think you "Aught" to be worried Stix :lol:
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by bigpete » 09 Nov 2019, 12:45 pm

TassieTiger wrote:35 Whelan is a cannon....
If you wanted to remain a bit more mainstream, 30 Gibbs pushes shoulder of 3006 forward .2 or .25 inches and allows for almost 10% extra powder...I looked at one of these a while ago, 180gns well over 3000fps...


Lol. It's not a cannon. It's pretty mild really
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Nov 2019, 1:22 pm

marksman wrote:
Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock served as U.S marine sniper during the Vietnam conflict (1963-1973).
As for Hathcock's rifle, the rifle was simply what came to hand at the time and the cartridge was effective.


Very true, there is nothing to say that if his rifle had been chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor that he would have done just as well. When you work for team green you don't have a say in your equipment. You get what you are given. I am sure that a few Marines of that era were less than impressed with the Sweet 16 and the ammo the top brass decided to provide them with.
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by marksman » 09 Nov 2019, 1:53 pm

his ammo was select lots of M72 30 caliber match ammo with 172-gr. FMJ boat tail bullets @ 2700 fps
the rounds used in that era were 308
the winchester rifle he used is a Model 70 National Match version made before 1940
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his other sniping rifle with some info :lol:
While the current record for the longest “confirmed” sniper kill is over 2,700 yards (just over 1.5) miles, with a .338 Lapua Magnum round, for nearly 35 years the record stood not with a traditional centerfire rifle, but with a modified M2 Browning Heavy Machine Gun, affectionately known as the “Ma Duece”

The “sniper?” None other than the famous US Marine Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock III. Using a 8x scope common for the era (a Unertl), Hathcock engaged the Vietcong from a stabilized tripod mounted M2. Per the book Inside the Crosshairs: Snipers in Veitnam, by Colonel Michael Lee Lannig stated that Hathcock engaged a moving target on a bicycle at over 2,500 yards, requiring two shots.
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by TassieTiger » 09 Nov 2019, 8:12 pm

2500 yards with an 8x ? 2700 FPS...?

Was this really a sighted, targeted shot or a few “Hail Mary” shots from a rapid fire?? If it was a calculated shot - hats off big time. If he had of used an 06, he prob would have only needed the one shot...
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Nov 2019, 8:34 pm

bigpete wrote:
Lol. It's not a cannon. It's pretty mild really


Yep, not much more than a 30-06 necked up.
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by Blr243 » 09 Nov 2019, 9:02 pm

I sometimes hear about extreme range sniper kills in war. Is the record a fluke or a repeatable act ? If a sniper shoots an enemy soldier at 1.5 k and gets a pat on the back or a medal very good... but has he completely missed at similar ranges for the previous ten shots ? And do we ever hear about that ?
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Nov 2019, 9:46 pm

They call every shot that missed previously a "ranging shot". You also need a spotter much closer to the target calling your ranging shots. I say give the rifle to the spotter who can make a much easier shot at shorter ranges.
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by marksman » 09 Nov 2019, 10:16 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
Yep, not much more than a 30-06 necked up.


l see what you did there Oldbloke :lol: :lol: :clap: :clap:
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by marksman » 09 Nov 2019, 10:35 pm

TassieTiger wrote:2500 yards with an 8x ? 2700 FPS...?

Was this really a sighted, targeted shot or a few “Hail Mary” shots from a rapid fire?? If it was a calculated shot - hats off big time. If he had of used an 06, he prob would have only needed the one shot...


carlos shot ma duece modified as semi auto
first shot blew off the handle bars the second blew out the enemy's chest
pretty sure getting hit with a 50 cal would hurt a bit :drinks:

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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by bigrich » 10 Nov 2019, 5:40 am

I read somewhere that during the last years in WW2 in the pacific, the USMC bought 30-06 model 70’s privately from Winchester, not as a sanctioned military purchase . These were used right up to Vietnam, and long after the 308 was introduced. They Are still in the armoury and used in shooting matches today. If it’s good enough for the marine corps it’ll do me :thumbsup:
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by bigpete » 10 Nov 2019, 7:26 am

Yep, not much more than a 30-06 necked up.


I can tell you one thing...having used both...it kills way better than it's parent cartridge imo
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by TassieTiger » 10 Nov 2019, 7:35 am

In the war museum - there are countless examples of two lead bullets they have hit each other from opposing sides...this really blows my mind as to how insane a fire fight must have been. I also wonder - how many hail Mary’s were there as a result, and what was a “safe” distance for infantry...?
If you knew there were a group of enemy soldiers, a large force say 3 Kim’s away - what’s to say you wouldn’t allow for 30ft - 50ft drop and start bouncing a few ? It must have happened...Soz. Off topic again. I might have ADD...
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by bigrich » 10 Nov 2019, 8:11 am

bigpete wrote:
I can tell you one thing...having used both...it kills way better than it's parent cartridge imo


I like the idea of 225 Sierra game king or Nosler Partition in a 35 Whelen, expands well enough for light game but has plenty of weight for bigger stuff. I was talking to one of the swan boys, and he’s got one built on a Springfield. Reckons 180 gn hp pistol bullets are dynamite on light game :) I’ve got the itch , c’mon Pete, encourage me to build one :lol:
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by Wombat » 10 Nov 2019, 8:34 am

TassieTiger wrote:I also wonder - how many hail Mary’s were there as a result, and what was a “safe” distance for infantry...?
If you knew there were a group of enemy soldiers, a large force say 3 Kim’s away - what’s to say you wouldn’t allow for 30ft - 50ft drop and start bouncing a few ? It must have happened...Soz. Off topic again. I might have ADD...


That is why WW1 era SMLEs had volley sights.
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by SCJ429 » 10 Nov 2019, 8:34 am

bigrich wrote:I read somewhere that during the last years in WW2 in the pacific, the USMC bought 30-06 model 70’s privately from Winchester, y. If it’s good enough for the marine corps it’ll do me :thumbsup:


The Australian SAS used Tikka rifles in the 80s, that was an inspired choice.
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by Blr243 » 10 Nov 2019, 11:58 am

Regarding pics of two projectiles that have collided in mid air, and getting struck together , I have seen plenty of pics like that and in one instance a pair of projectiles that have collided precisely head on , and flattening together not bouncing off each other. So there’s a good chance that may have been two enemy soldiers shooting at each other at the same time.
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by bigrich » 10 Nov 2019, 1:48 pm

SCJ429 wrote:
The Australian SAS used Tikka rifles in the 80s, that was an inspired choice.


p14 303's were the sniper rifle of choice in ww2 and korea . very very accurate . i think the oz army used parker hales in 308 at one point didn't they :unknown:
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by bigpete » 10 Nov 2019, 2:32 pm

I like the idea of 225 Sierra game king or Nosler Partition in a 35 Whelen, expands well enough for light game but has plenty of weight for bigger stuff. I was talking to one of the swan boys, and he’s got one built on a Springfield. Reckons 180 gn hp pistol bullets are dynamite on light game :) I’ve got the itch , c’mon Pete, encourage me to build one :lol:[/quote]

I'm using 200gn round nose sierras....very emphatic it seems....
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by SCJ429 » 10 Nov 2019, 3:27 pm

bigrich wrote:
p14 303's were the sniper rifle of choice in ww2 and korea . very very accurate . i think the oz army used parker hales in 308 at one point didn't they :unknown:


I remember seeing Parker Hale rifles with a 6x Khales? Scope back in the 80s, they were in 308. I believe they were replaced by Accuracy Internationals.

The Tikkas were used by the SAS Urban Counter Terrorism units and were chambered in 22/250.
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by bigrich » 10 Nov 2019, 3:32 pm

bigpete wrote:I like the idea of 225 Sierra game king or Nosler Partition in a 35 Whelen, expands well enough for light game but has plenty of weight for bigger stuff. I was talking to one of the swan boys, and he’s got one built on a Springfield. Reckons 180 gn hp pistol bullets are dynamite on light game :) I’ve got the itch , c’mon Pete, encourage me to build one :lol:


I'm using 200gn round nose sierras....very emphatic it seems....[/quote]

lots of splat factor hey pete ? :D
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by marksman » 10 Nov 2019, 3:39 pm

for the type of hunting l imagine you are doing l can see the 35 whelan as a very emphatic killer :thumbsup:
the 35 whelan has to be a good round its parent is the 30-06 :lol: :drinks:

where l see the strengths as an effective game killing round for the 30-06 over the whelan or 308 for that matter especially when handloaded is the flexibility of the weights and styles of bullets with very good velocities
my style of shooting differs from the bush stalker who would get the most out of a 35 whelan and l find a bang flop brain shot from a 30-06 especially at distances as emphatic as any shot from any bigger bore, nothing against the whelan or any other big bore,
for snap shooting in the bush for sambar l dont know why the 12 gauge using slugs is not more popular, same deal really, chest shoot and eat up to the big hole, bugger all bruising :lol: jobs done freezers full
as l have mentioned earlier where the 308 is finished is where the 30-06 starts to shine when handloaded, the 30-06 factory ammo has to be downloaded like a few other good rounds eg... the 6.5 swede because of older rifles that cannot take the higher pressure's chambered in these round's
and again l'm not saying the 308 hasn't got a place or will not do the job just not as versatile as the 30-06 when handloaded for hunting :lol:

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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by bigrich » 10 Nov 2019, 4:07 pm

nice can of worms , lets go fishing :lol:
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by marksman » 10 Nov 2019, 4:15 pm

bigrich wrote:nice can of worms , lets go fishing :lol:


yea BR :lol: l thought by now there would be none left :lol:
a bit of fun anyhoo :drinks:
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by bigpete » 10 Nov 2019, 6:39 pm

lots of splat factor hey pete ? :D[/quote]

They just work
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by bigrich » 10 Nov 2019, 6:57 pm

marksman wrote:for the type of hunting l imagine you are doing l can see the 35 whelan as a very emphatic killer :thumbsup:
the 35 whelan has to be a good round its parent is the 30-06 :lol: :drinks:

where l see the strengths as an effective game killing round for the 30-06 over the whelan or 308 for that matter especially when handloaded is the flexibility of the weights and styles of bullets with very good velocities
my style of shooting differs from the bush stalker who would get the most out of a 35 whelan and l find a bang flop brain shot from a 30-06 especially at distances as emphatic as any shot from any bigger bore, nothing against the whelan or any other big bore,
for snap shooting in the bush for sambar l dont know why the 12 gauge using slugs is not more popular, same deal really, chest shoot and eat up to the big hole, bugger all bruising :lol: jobs done freezers full
as l have mentioned earlier where the 308 is finished is where the 30-06 starts to shine when handloaded, the 30-06 factory ammo has to be downloaded like a few other good rounds eg... the 6.5 swede because of older rifles that cannot take the higher pressure's chambered in these round's
and again l'm not saying the 308 hasn't got a place or will not do the job just not as versatile as the 30-06 when handloaded for hunting :lol:

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that sums it up well MM , any game brain shot could be dispatched by even a 22 mag depending on distance . the whelens strength is it's ability at being forgiving with snap shots in scrubby areas . and with launching projectiles of a bore size and weight where the energy transfer would flatten sambar or even the biggest "hogzilla" on the spot and even lung shot light game would bleed out very quickly . the old qoute from uncle nick about the unreliability of game staying down from poor projectile performance with the 06 is null and void with the range of bullets available today. comes down to what and where you hunt i suppose . your spot on about older military rounds being underloaded , the 308 is a more modern round for more recently produced rifles , so factory loads are at the 308's full potential . i know through my own experience my 6.5x55 handloads are going 250-300 fps faster and flatter than factory loads . the 30-06 definately has greater potential with hand loads over the 308 , but again , if you don't live in the north of the country with buff and large pigs the 308 will do all you need it too

i still would like a 35 whelen but :D
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by marksman » 10 Nov 2019, 8:34 pm

ahha now the can is getting opened :lol:
nice worm BR

hows this for big victorian pigs BR
have a look at the fence post at the back of the photo :lol:
1 1/2 hours from where l live, in vic :drinks:

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there are lots of nasty things in the victorian bush mate, i've even seen bulls gone wild, donkeys and a camel once :drinks:
plenty of reason for a 30-06 because we have open areas and can shooter further than 25-50 :lol:
sambar can be taken with a 308, even a 7mm08 is good but dont ever think they are an easy animal to put down

and have you seen this mate, 308's in an old ruger to shoot big buffs up north using old nato ammo, they were around 140gr bullets aren't they
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OneyeUxzL40
you dont need a big gun for a buff :lol: :lol: :lol:

the hook is baited :drinks:
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by bigrich » 10 Nov 2019, 8:55 pm

the whelen would flatten the biggest of those pigs on the spot . then again, so would my 8x57 with 200gn partitions or speers ;) sorry but i'd feel better having more thump than a 308 can provide . 30-06 with the right projectile is more than capable , but it's the 06's ability to throw 180- 200 gn bullets that give it a edge on some of the larger ferals you've mentioned . dunno if i'll get the chance, but there's feral camels not too far north of brissy :D ya just gotta use "enough gun" :lol:

if all else fails, there's a genuine ,working WW2 german MG42 8x57 belt fed machine gun for sale on usedguns.com :o 40K is the asking price :crazy:

bloody good pig gun :lol: https://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=162296

:drinks: :drinks: :thumbsup:
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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by marksman » 11 Nov 2019, 7:38 am

well done BR :clap:
l agree the 35 whelen would flatten the biggest of them pigs on the spot and so would the 8x57 or the 308
the whelen is not only a good thumper it is a good shooter having a bit of reach as well as being (like you said) more forgiving for bush shooting when the shot placement is not as precise as we thought, the poor mans magnum :thumbsup:

if only we had the privilege to own and use that mg42 the farmers would be wrapped we would keep them pesky ferals out of the paddock :drinks:

ah well looks like the suns coming out so it might be time to go and get some real fish :lol: :drinks:

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Re: opening a can of worms

Post by bigrich » 11 Nov 2019, 8:46 am

Nice fish MM . I was out near mingoola , just north of Tenterfield on Saturday trying for cod . Mate and his old man got some really good ones a couple of weeks back. As far as the mg42 goes, if ya opened up on a mob of pigs it would plow the paddock at the same time :lol: I wouldn’t be happy reloading for one though. A months worth of work would be gone in about a minute :lol:
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