.204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

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.204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by snag » 19 Jun 2020, 5:43 pm

An old mate of mine is looking at buying either one of these calibres second hand and asked me about it. Never having owned either I thought I'd throw it to the brains trust - are they hard on barrels?
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by Strikey » 19 Jun 2020, 6:09 pm

My stainless Ruger 77 MkII 22/250 had approximately 4000 rounds through it before the barrel was done, I bought it 2nd hand so don't know how many it had fired before me, was mostly used at the range.
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by bladeracer » 19 Jun 2020, 6:13 pm

snag wrote:An old mate of mine is looking at buying either one of these calibres second hand and asked me about it. Never having owned either I thought I'd throw it to the brains trust - are they hard on barrels?


I haven't owned .22-250, but I think the .204 is fine for a very high velocity cartridge.
If he loads his own ammo it's entirely up to him how hot he runs it.
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by in2anity » 19 Jun 2020, 6:28 pm

A full case of trail boss, under a cheap, light pill. 204 Speer TNT 39gr springs to mind. Drive em hard only when you need to.
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by marksman » 19 Jun 2020, 6:57 pm

snag wrote:An old mate of mine is looking at buying either one of these calibres second hand and asked me about it. Never having owned either I thought I'd throw it to the brains trust - are they hard on barrels?


l bought my last 22-250 when the 204 was just introduced, at that time what swayed me was the higher cost of components for the 204,
that has no bearing now as the 204 components cost the same
as Blade says, "it's entirely up to him how hot he runs it." thats what will burn out the bore
mine is a Ruger Mkll like strikeys, they have a hammer forged barrel that will last longer

mine has had many thousand rounds through it, hunting rounds so the barrel has not really ever got very hot, this is what the bore is like

Image

either or would be good IMHO
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by Stix » 19 Jun 2020, 7:35 pm

Im probably unqualified to answer because Ive never totalled rounds through a barrel...but my most used 204, also im pretty sure is a stainless hammer forged barrel, has probably had near enough to, or heading towards 1500 rounds--up to 1200 of these being full power (not reduced loads)..according to some i should be half way through its life... :unknown:

Its mostly a hunting rifle, but has done its fair share of non-hunting shots through load testing with different brass & bullets, but also from having to regularly zero a string of faulty scopes. :roll:

At around the 1100-1200 rounds mark i looked in the barrel through someone elses hawkeye, & if i showed you pic's, id be able to pass it off as having 100 rounds down it (if not for the dings its copped flicking it in & out of car windows...) it looked as good as, if not a little better than marksmans pic.

Only once has it had 8 shots through it--because bunny's were in a plague I couldnt stop myself...(god that was so much fun... :clap: )--, aside from that, it doesnt get more than 3 shots at a time if zeroing a new/different scope, it just gets the single shot on cold barrel as a spotlighting rig.
I am very confident ill get 4000+ rounds out of it...

I also use reduced loads in my 204 & 22-250 with trailboss for largely damage free plinking, & as a hornet type round...not as accurate--groups open up but still sub MOA--so these loads are still capable of head shooting bunny's easily out to 150m...this makes them great for a lower energy but equally capable fox round out to 300...

Id buy another one.. :) ....in fact...i did..!!!. :thumbsup: ...i bought 2 other 22-250's AND another 204... :lol: .. :unknown: :
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by SCJ429 » 19 Jun 2020, 8:04 pm

When you are on a good thing, stick to it Stix.

I have a Tikka 22/250 and have shot about 2000 rounds through it, I still get groups at about 0.250 to 0.300. There is some noticeable throat errosion but it still puts the bullet where you wanted it.

I also have a Sako 204 with about 1200 rounds through it. The barrel still looks excellent. If I only could have one of these rifles, I would choose the 204. It is a brilliant little case.
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by in2anity » 19 Jun 2020, 8:34 pm

SCJ429 wrote:I have a Tikka 22/250 and have shot about 2000 rounds through it, I still get groups at about 0.250 to 0.300. There is some noticeable throat errosion but it still puts the bullet where you want

That’s pretty mind blowing. Does it hold that sort of group? Much of a wait between shots?
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by SCJ429 » 19 Jun 2020, 9:35 pm

It starts to copper foul after a few shots but I still get about about 25 to 30 worthwhile shots out of it. I shoot five and let it cool. When it was new it shot a group of 0.190.
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by in2anity » 19 Jun 2020, 10:02 pm

Crazy. Your groups are incredible. Interesting my heavy 223 exhibits almost the exact same behavior WRT to fouling - after 20-30 shots it noticeably opens up, until I clean it again that is.

But with my knock-about old handloads, it’s at very best a half minute gun. Makes me kind of wonder though how tight I could get it if I iterated some more on the reload side of the equation.
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by TassieTiger » 19 Jun 2020, 10:21 pm

SCJ429 wrote:It starts to copper foul after a few shots but I still get about about 25 to 30 worthwhile shots out of it. I shoot five and let it cool. When it was new it shot a group of 0.190.


.19 = 5mm How do you shoot a group that is In total, less than the size of the projectile ? That is a 25% smaller group size, than 2 holes side by side of .264”
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by SCJ429 » 19 Jun 2020, 10:30 pm

A 0.0 group from a 22/250 would be 0.224. To shoot a 0.190 group, the total size of your group would be 0.414.

A 0.0 group from a 30/06 would be 0.308. To shoot a 0.190 group, the total size of your group would be 0.498.
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by marksman » 19 Jun 2020, 11:17 pm

TassieTiger wrote:
.19 = 5mm How do you shoot a group that is In total, less than the size of the projectile ? That is a 25% smaller group size, than 2 holes side by side of .264”


you have to take away the bullet size, see Tassie you've just shrunk your group sizes by be on the forum :thumbsup:

"It starts to copper foul after a few shots but I still get about about 25 to 30 worthwhile shots out of it"
have you ever polished the throat, it may help with the coppering
l need to polish my 22-250 throat every 200=250 shots or the groups are .5 moa till l do
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by Stix » 19 Jun 2020, 11:24 pm

My unnecessary input ( :lol: ) is put this way...Think of the measuring point of each shot from the centre of the group...little edit to say what i meant--from the centre of each shot!!!... :) :thumbsup:

Nothing wrong with measuring outside to outside though... :thumbsup: ...aim small, miss small... :clap:
Last edited by Stix on 20 Jun 2020, 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by in2anity » 20 Jun 2020, 9:05 am

SCJ429 wrote:A 0.0 group from a 22/250 would be 0.224. To shoot a 0.190 group, the total size of your group would be 0.414.

A 0.0 group from a 30/06 would be 0.308. To shoot a 0.190 group, the total size of your group would be 0.498.


Oh ok - i didn't realise that form of measurement. That makes my gun look a tad better :thumbsup: I'm still impresseed though - your trio must be absolutely mint (shooter/gun/ammo).
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by TassieTiger » 20 Jun 2020, 9:15 am

You guys make me sick with your silly arse tiny groups.
If I buy a target to shoot - I want to get my moneys worth and use ALL of the target not just a tiny .4” part of it :sarcasm:
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by SCJ429 » 20 Jun 2020, 9:40 am

marksman wrote:
"It starts to copper foul after a few shots but I still get about about 25 to 30 worthwhile shots out of it"
have you ever polished the throat, it may help with the coppering
l need to polish my 22-250 throat every 200=250 shots or the groups are .5 moa till l do


I do polish the barrel and my gunsmith was suprised how good the lands look as I have been known to push my loads a little hard. This little Tikka has had no reduced loads and has shot some longer strings at the range. My feeling is that without polishing the barrel would already have gone off. I do feel that I have got my money's worth out of this barrel.

For the OP, would your friend be disappointed if he only got 2000 rounds out of a barrel? For some hunters this would be a lifetime of shooting.
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by Grandadbushy » 20 Jun 2020, 10:20 am

I have not long replaced my 22-250 barrel and have worked up a load for it with 36gr Bm2 and 50gr sp it should be doing 3900fps according to the good book ,pretty hot in my eyes it will be interesting to see how many shots the barrel will do before it starts giving accuracy problems but at my age I may never see that , the old barrel shot over 3800-4000 or more I stopped counting them at 3700 but it only shot 31.6gr (minimum) of Bm2 with 55gr vmax from new , I can't speak for the 204 as I've never owned one but the 22-250 would be quiet a capable rifle for your mate.
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by in2anity » 20 Jun 2020, 10:29 am

TassieTiger wrote:You guys make me sick with your silly arse tiny groups.
If I buy a target to shoot - I want to get my moneys worth and use ALL of the target not just a tiny .4” part of it :sarcasm:


:lol: don't worry TT - 99.9% of the time that sort of accuracy is very much lost on me. Besides, I have guns which I have literally never benchrested (shot only from the sling) - the measure of a load is simply done by analysing many weeks worth of grades, tweaks to things things such as projectile and powder is done very gradually and subtly, because overwhelmingly error stems from the shooter in fullbore/service rifle. I guess doing this at the bench is a sort of an acceleration of this process... a lot more scientific.
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by SCJ429 » 20 Jun 2020, 10:31 am

Wow, 4,000 rounds out of a 22/250 is an achievement, it is a wonder that you had any rifling left. I have a little over 4,000 through my 223 and she is looking very secondhand.
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by Stix » 20 Jun 2020, 10:39 am

SCJ429 wrote:Wow, 4,000 rounds out of a 22/250 is an achievement, it is a wonder that you had any rifling left. I have a little over 4,000 through my 223 and she is looking very secondhand.

So how many rounds would you expe t out of a sako 204 mostly just 3 shot groups or single cold shots scj...?
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by SCJ429 » 20 Jun 2020, 10:46 am

in2anity wrote: :lol: don't worry TT - 99.9% of the time that sort of accuracy is very much lost on me. Besides, I have guns which I have literally never benchrested (shot only from the sling) - the measure of a load is simply done by analysing many weeks worth of grades, tweaks to things things such as projectile and powder is done very gradually and subtly, because overwhelmingly error stems from the shooter in fullbore/service rifle. I guess doing this at the bench is a sort of an acceleration of this process... a lot more scientific.


If I tried to shoot load testing offhand I would turn a 1/4 MOA into a six MOA rifle. My shooting errors would be the biggest factor. Do you use a chronograph to find your nodes? When you analyse your grades, are they the scores you achieved during competition?
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by in2anity » 20 Jun 2020, 11:11 am

SCJ429 wrote:My shooting errors would be the biggest factor. Do you use a chronograph to find your nodes? When you analyse your grades, are they the scores you achieved during competition?


Don't worry, most Service Rifle shooters are in the same boat - all but probably the master graders know that overwhelmingly, error is coming from them. Fullbore is a little more refined because the front tunnel sees inherently smaller groups - but most still base their measure of how things are going by a sample of weeks worth of comps.

I reckon at best with my bog-standard No4, I am currently grouping into about 6-7" from 200m sitting. Then add windage into that. But you do see trends, just by looking at your targets each week, and your gun needs to be consistent, so you can rock up week to week and know just how your gun is going to behave. You just get a feel for how it's grouping given the current variables. Then after a nice big sample size, if you change a variable, your groups will eventually reflect that change.

I haven't chronoed my No4 yet, nor have I gone looking for nodes - I guess I will down the track, it's just not really a factor right now, I'm know I'm the main source of error.

We do shoot Teloscopic sight matches every now and again, which is when the heavy 223 comes out. Sure - it needs to put them where it's pointed (to score well) - but again, the matches are usually always limited exposures of 4secs/shot, meaning you have to get the round away quick. This somewhat invalidates the super-duper refinments of precision reloading. Put it this way if you had a gun that would consistently hold an MOA group from 400m, it'd be quite possible to shoot a perfect score (if you're doing your part). Consistency is king.

Horses for courses. :drinks:
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by SCJ429 » 20 Jun 2020, 12:03 pm

Stix wrote:
SCJ429 wrote:Wow, 4,000 rounds out of a 22/250 is an achievement, it is a wonder that you had any rifling left. I have a little over 4,000 through my 223 and she is looking very secondhand.

So how many rounds would you expe t out of a sako 204 mostly just 3 shot groups or single cold shots scj...?

I was hoping you could tell me. It isn't an overbore cartridge so I would hope that it would maintain hunting accuracy for 3,000 rounds. I think I will chamber my next barrel in 20 Prac AI, just to be a little different. What about you?
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by bladeracer » 20 Jun 2020, 12:26 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Wow, 4,000 rounds out of a 22/250 is an achievement, it is a wonder that you had any rifling left. I have a little over 4,000 through my 223 and she is looking very secondhand.


I got a milsurp rifle two weeks ago in 6.5mm.
The bore should slug .264", this slug came through at .280" with no rifling - it's a 7mm shotgun :-)
But I would guess in its early life it probably fired tens of thousands of rounds in very concentrated sessions, and at targets so close that quarter-minute accuracy was counterproductive, firing five rounds at one target at 50m would very effectively hit four other nearby targets...and probably miss the one the sight was actually held on :-)

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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by bladeracer » 20 Jun 2020, 12:33 pm

Stix wrote:
SCJ429 wrote:Wow, 4,000 rounds out of a 22/250 is an achievement, it is a wonder that you had any rifling left. I have a little over 4,000 through my 223 and she is looking very secondhand.

So how many rounds would you expe t out of a sako 204 mostly just 3 shot groups or single cold shots scj...?


It will depend entirely on how you judge barrel life. If you have a rifle that groups every time 5rds in .5MoA for 1000rds, then starts throwing .75MoA groups, do you consider it time for a new barrel?

For me, anything that consistently holds 1MoA in the field to be excellent, and perfectly capable of doing whatever I need it to.
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by Stix » 20 Jun 2020, 1:40 pm

SCJ429 wrote:
Stix wrote:
SCJ429 wrote:Wow, 4,000 rounds out of a 22/250 is an achievement, it is a wonder that you had any rifling left. I have a little over 4,000 through my 223 and she is looking very secondhand.

So how many rounds would you expe t out of a sako 204 mostly just 3 shot groups or single cold shots scj...?

I was hoping you could tell me. It isn't an overbore cartridge so I would hope that it would maintain hunting accuracy for 3,000 rounds. I think I will chamber my next barrel in 20 Prac AI, just to be a little different. What about you?


Sorry im not sure what you're asking me..? If its what id re-barrel--i dont know, but it likely wont be a Sako action whatever chambering--im in a lot of disbelief how short the mag is & how deep you have to seat the bullets for the rifle, there seems very little flexibility, which is a little disappointing for a rifle with top feed mag in such an ideal Aussie hunting & perfect spotlighting round... :thumbsdown: ...but having said that, while it was performing (its on the blink at the moment), there was no great or notable difference in group size for single fed rounds differing in seating depth.--im not sure if that is a character of that rifle or is a common 204 trait... :unknown:

Or what about me re- a chambering...i dont know--im not qualified to answer that as i dont know whats about...guess ill wait to see what you think with your 20 prac... :unknown:

bladeracer wrote:
Stix wrote:
SCJ429 wrote:Wow, 4,000 rounds out of a 22/250 is an achievement, it is a wonder that you had any rifling left. I have a little over 4,000 through my 223 and she is looking very secondhand.

So how many rounds would you expe t out of a sako 204 mostly just 3 shot groups or single cold shots scj...?


It will depend entirely on how you judge barrel life. If you have a rifle that groups every time 5rds in .5MoA for 1000rds, then starts throwing .75MoA groups, do you consider it time for a new barrel?

For me, anything that consistently holds 1MoA in the field to be excellent, and perfectly capable of doing whatever I need it to.


I was asking re the round count as i have no idea...im not afraid to admit ive never monitored a round count till barrel death, so couldnt even take a guess...i only assume i might get 4000+ out of mine, based on the badly crazed croc skin finish inside my old 22-250 as compared with this one after 1200-1500 rounds.
My old 22-250 sprays them out to an inch--maybe a little more-cant really remember--& i dont deem that acceptable...i would still use it for plinking or reduced loads, but the issue there is carting another rifle...when i spotlight i already have 2 rifles (22LR as well), & can drop a reduced load in the top if ness, so it lives in the safe.

I guess id consider between .5-.75 moa acceptable...because i go out of my way to chase bunny heads out to 300, but i definitely want to hit their heads at 200, maybe 250., so any less accuracy with a little wind would limit these ranges somewhat...well for me anyway...
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by bladeracer » 20 Jun 2020, 2:52 pm

Ever shot I fire is recorded for every firearm, even those that have fired tens of thousands of rounds before I got them.
I've bought batches of brass from fox shooters who go through hundreds of rounds every year.
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by snag » 20 Jun 2020, 7:07 pm

Hey great response guys - I knew this was the place to ask. The upshot is that my mate has decided to go ahead and buy a second-hand Ruger .204 that he has looked at that's in really good nick. He'll only be shooting factory ammo, so it sounds like it will give him a ton of fun and will last him out. Thanks everyone.
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Re: .204 and .22-250 - barrel burners?

Post by Grandadbushy » 20 Jun 2020, 7:24 pm

I believe barrel life depends on a lot of things, powders, how clean it's kept, temperature, make of barrel and so on as bladeracer I document shots fired out of individual rifles and if I stop is around the max required for that caliber but usually keep it up to date , I also have a 22-250 AI with a 26'' barrel it has had 2500 through it and still shoots .7 '' it is a 30-06 barrelled to 22-250 and can only be single shot fired I was told i'd probably get between 1800 and 2000 so i'm 500 up on that I couldn't believe I was getting the shots out of the other old 22-250 that I have just changed but i'm thinking it was because of the min powder load of 31.6 of Bm2 @ 3414fps and it only fired one projectile all it's life and one powder also was kept clean, it was still shooting 3/4'' but originally started at bug hole groups, it could still be used as a hunting rifle but not accurate enough for what I do , the new barrel I posted a pic on this forum of the groups i'm getting with it but I will tinker with the load and depth till it shoots bug holes like the old one on saying that i'm running a fairly hot load in it at 36gr Bm2 with a 50gr pill @ around 3900fps so i'm not expecting too much on barrel life but I hope I get my 2500 but i'll have to wait and see
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