My new P14

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Re: My new P14

Post by Stoney » 13 Sep 2020, 7:21 pm

Wm.Traynor wrote:Have you had the rear sight off to clean it, Stoney? Reason I ask is, that it looks like the kind of thing you would find on a target rifle( sorry, I haven't read the full post from the start). If so, it could be in good nick too even if there is some dust and grit on the threads. Those things were all detachable for transport and returned to zero within half an moa, owing to the parallel thread of the mounting plate. Cleaning these days is by squirting the exposed threads with G96 (and maybe scrubbing with a toothbrush), winding the knobs to their limits (careful not to go TOO far) and repeat.
Good luck mate :thumbsup:

p.s. any Full-Bore Target shooter would help you :)


Well Mr Traynor, I did in fact pull the peep sight off today after a bit of a battle and soaked it in kero to get years and years of gunk out of the workings. I dis-assembled it completely. It is quite a complex device, a lot of very, very small screws and springs, almost like clockwork. I did find to my amusement a hidden Allen key recess with Allen key to " set " the sight. All steel, no plastic. Now it clicks up and down, left and right just like the day it was made. And now detaches easily. What an amazing level of engineering.
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Re: My new P14

Post by Wm.Traynor » 13 Sep 2020, 9:30 pm

Stoney wrote:
Wm.Traynor wrote:Have you had the rear sight off to clean it, Stoney? Reason I ask is, that it looks like the kind of thing you would find on a target rifle( sorry, I haven't read the full post from the start). If so, it could be in good nick too even if there is some dust and grit on the threads. Those things were all detachable for transport and returned to zero within half an moa, owing to the parallel thread of the mounting plate. Cleaning these days is by squirting the exposed threads with G96 (and maybe scrubbing with a toothbrush), winding the knobs to their limits (careful not to go TOO far) and repeat.
Good luck mate :thumbsup:

p.s. any Full-Bore Target shooter would help you :)


Well Mr Traynor, I did in fact pull the peep sight off today after a bit of a battle and soaked it in kero to get years and years of gunk out of the workings. I dis-assembled it completely. It is quite a complex device, a lot of very, very small screws and springs, almost like clockwork. I did find to my amusement a hidden Allen key recess with Allen key to " set " the sight. All steel, no plastic. Now it clicks up and down, left and right just like the day it was made. And now detaches easily. What an amazing level of engineering.


Well done Stoney and no need for the "Mr.," my name is Bill.
Would you mind telling us what brand it is? I'll bet collectors would be fascinated. I am not by the way :) just curious.
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Re: My new P14

Post by in2anity » 13 Sep 2020, 10:14 pm

Awesome. And they can shoot. Generally a cut above your average SMLE.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: My new P14

Post by Stoney » 14 Sep 2020, 3:13 pm

No worries Bill it is. The brand is ARMSTRONG I haven't found a model and/or number on it yet.
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Re: My new P14

Post by Stoney » 14 Sep 2020, 5:53 pm

Stoney wrote:
straightshooter wrote:It is more likely just a simple 303/25 and the barrel and mods were done by Sprinter arms in SA.
You will soon find out by checking a standard 303/25 case for fit and then if OK firing a round and comparing the case with an unfired case.
To the best of my knowledge there was never a 303/25 AI but there was a 303/25 Epps improved which was like an AI but it never attained any degree of popularity here.


I agree straightshooter. I have read that the Sprinter shoulder is set back further than the standard 303/25. My plan is once I have it, try and chamber a standard 303/25 with a soap blocked neck and perhaps 5 grains of trailboss. If it chambers I will then have a good idea of what I am dealing with.


You are 100% correct straightshooter. I will fire a case and confirm. Thanks for your input mate. :drinks:
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Re: My new P14

Post by Wm.Traynor » 14 Sep 2020, 7:01 pm

Stoney wrote:No worries Bill it is. The brand is ARMSTRONG I haven't found a model and/or number on it yet.


Thank you Stoney but I am none the wiser. Might be a job for a diehard collector if you wanted its history. :)
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Re: My new P14

Post by straightshooter » 16 Sep 2020, 8:53 am

The pictures tell a different story to what I had earlier thought and commented on.
F. Taylor and J. Taylor were father and son operators of a gunshop in Bathurst street Sydney that had become defunct by the early 70's.
Both were life members of Sydney Rifle Club.
Fullbore rifles with heavy 303 barrels with TAYLOR stamped on the 'nock's form' can be encountered from time to time.
The stock is done in the style of a full bore M17 conversion of that era with a piece of wood inlet into the original stock to provide a slightly higher comb. The stock is a little fancier than usual with it's fairly coarse checkering, probably about as fine as the original military wood would support.
The barrel and chambering can be a problem.
Judging by the shape of it's reinforce, the barrel looks like a typical Sportco barrel of that era. The neatly engraved J. Taylor suggests that it was fitted but not necessarily chambered by him but the crudely engraved .25 Imp Sprinter could be something a later owner has done. If there is a 303/25 stamping somewhere else on the barrel then that serve to confirm my theory.
If it has a cock on opening 'speed lock' fitted then, provided the barrel is decent, you will have quite a good sporter as is. If not then a cock on opening speed lock and trigger conversion may be well worth the effort.
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Re: My new P14

Post by Stoney » 16 Sep 2020, 4:17 pm

straightshooter wrote:The pictures tell a different story to what I had earlier thought and commented on.
F. Taylor and J. Taylor were father and son operators of a gunshop in Bathurst street Sydney that had become defunct by the early 70's.
Both were life members of Sydney Rifle Club.
Fullbore rifles with heavy 303 barrels with TAYLOR stamped on the 'nock's form' can be encountered from time to time.
The stock is done in the style of a full bore M17 conversion of that era with a piece of wood inlet into the original stock to provide a slightly higher comb. The stock is a little fancier than usual with it's fairly coarse checkering, probably about as fine as the original military wood would support.
The barrel and chambering can be a problem.
Judging by the shape of it's reinforce, the barrel looks like a typical Sportco barrel of that era. The neatly engraved J. Taylor suggests that it was fitted but not necessarily chambered by him but the crudely engraved .25 Imp Sprinter could be something a later owner has done. If there is a 303/25 stamping somewhere else on the barrel then that serve to confirm my theory.
If it has a cock on opening 'speed lock' fitted then, provided the barrel is decent, you will have quite a good sporter as is. If not then a cock on opening speed lock and trigger conversion may be well worth the effort.


No other barrel stamp straightshooter although I have not taken the barrel and action out of the stock yet. Cock on close ( bugger ) and a creepy/ grungy long first stage, but a crisp let off on the second. Perhaps a good clean is in order. I am considering a cock on opening conversion from Rebels @ $45 plus a Timney trigger @ $161 unless someone more knowledgeable has better options?
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Re: My new P14

Post by Stoney » 16 Sep 2020, 4:29 pm

s**t I also forgot. I have yet to measure the twist rate. I am assuming 1:12? Wasn't that the most popular with 87grs?
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Re: My new P14

Post by Wm.Traynor » 16 Sep 2020, 6:53 pm

Stoney wrote:s**t I also forgot. I have yet to measure the twist rate. I am assuming 1:12? Wasn't that the most popular with 87grs?


Yes but 100 grains would be ok too, just not 120 gn.
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Re: My new P14

Post by Stoney » 16 Sep 2020, 7:27 pm

Well, hopefully a test fire this weekend and a fireformed case, and if all goes well, a strip down and refurbishment. I can't explain how much I really love this old gun, it just ticks nostalgia boxes for me. And to think I purchased it for the Princely sum of $400. :thumbsup: I am hoping it is 303/25 Imp with a good twist rate. The bore is excellent. Thanks to everyone that has commented. I will post a fireformed case and then perhaps load development and refurbishment pics.
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Re: My new P14

Post by Stoney » 29 Sep 2020, 6:11 pm

G'day fellas,
Just an update on the old P14 if you are interested. Firstly, the twist rate on the barrel is indeed 1:12". Secondly I managed to fire a few shots out of the old girl on Sunday at Ripley and here are the results. Definitely 303/25 Imp, NOT 303/25 Sprinter Imp or A.I as I incorrectly stated. The two rounds on the right are Bertram brass loaded with 87gr Sierra TnT middle right and 87gr Speer soft points extreme right. The fired case on the left is a fireformed Bertram case. The one on the very left is a fired Unique 303/25 factory loaded case. I bought a box because I knew they are loaded way down and not really knowing the chamber as a safety margin and also to use them to get me on paper @ 50yrds.
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Re: My new P14

Post by in2anity » 29 Sep 2020, 8:23 pm

The Speer TNTs go good, especially for the price point. Keep the updates flowing Stoney, enjoying it. I’m eying off some p14s myself, in an upcoming auction, to potentially replace the No4. Looking for a 303 with a little more consistency.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: My new P14

Post by marksman » 30 Sep 2020, 12:26 am

its a sexy looking fireformed round :thumbsup:
the unique shortened quite a bit and the rim looks heaps thinner :unknown:
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Re: My new P14

Post by straightshooter » 30 Sep 2020, 6:57 am

Stoney wrote:G'day fellas,
Just an update on the old P14 if you are interested. Firstly, the twist rate on the barrel is indeed 1:12". Secondly I managed to fire a few shots out of the old girl on Sunday at Ripley and here are the results. Definitely 303/25 Imp, NOT 303/25 Sprinter Imp or A.I as I incorrectly stated. The two rounds on the right are Bertram brass loaded with 87gr Sierra TnT middle right and 87gr Speer soft points extreme right. The fired case on the left is a fireformed Bertram case. The one on the very left is a fired Unique 303/25 factory loaded case. I bought a box because I knew they are loaded way down and not really knowing the chamber as a safety margin and also to use them to get me on paper @ 50yrds.


You have resolved one question and now you are faced with another.
Suitable reloading dies?
My suggestion is contact Simplex reloading. They may already have suitable die sets.
When it was run by Bill Marden Jr. it was possible to send him a couple of fired cases and he would produce a custom die set, but he has retired. It is now run by his daughter and chances are they might still offer the same service although the business now appears to be much smaller.
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Re: My new P14

Post by Stoney » 30 Sep 2020, 5:10 pm

in2anity wrote:The Speer TNTs go good, especially for the price point. Keep the updates flowing Stoney, enjoying it. I’m eying off some p14s myself, in an upcoming auction, to potentially replace the No4. Looking for a 303 with a little more consistency.

Yes In2anity, I am becoming quite a fan of the P14 action.

marksman wrote:its a sexy looking fireformed round :thumbsup:
the unique shortened quite a bit and the rim looks heaps thinner :unknown:

G'day marksman, the unique case has a really short neck and the shoulder is pushed way back as a loaded round. Unfortunately I didn't take a pic. I guess this is so it will fire in any 303/25 version. It is also loaded very mildly, some of the cases didn't really fireform that well and have an almost rounded Weatherby shoulder.

You have resolved one question and now you are faced with another.
Suitable reloading dies?
My suggestion is contact Simplex reloading. They may already have suitable die sets.
When it was run by Bill Marden Jr. it was possible to send him a couple of fired cases and he would produce a custom die set, but he has retired. It is now run by his daughter and chances are they might still offer the same service although the business now appears to be much smaller.[/quote]

Funny you should mention that straightshooter. I did in fact contact Simplex about my dilemma and received a phone call by Bill Marden Jr himself. He set me straight about the gun and told me I was probably wrong with the A.I as Australians only generally used Imp back in the 60's. He was totally right of course. Awesome bloke to talk to. I have since purchased a Super Simplex press with 303/25 neck die and bullet seater. The old one 5/8? Anyway I intended to ring Mr Marden back and tell him he was absolutely right. And also see if I can send a couple of cases for a FLR die. As an aside I also spoke to him about a 303/270 rifle on a M17 action that was made by his father that is for sale. I will be buying that shortly.
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Re: My new P14

Post by bigrich » 01 Oct 2020, 4:09 pm

Stoney wrote: Anyway I intended to ring Mr Marden back and tell him he was absolutely right. And also see if I can send a couple of cases for a FLR die. As an aside I also spoke to him about a 303/270 rifle on a M17 action that was made by his father that is for sale. I will be buying that shortly.


not if i beat ya there first ole mate :P

ya shoulda seen it fellas , there i was , with a nice old custom p14 in 303-25 in my hands. admiring it's beauty , when i hear "it's mine" and a flying stoney knocks me down and grabs that p14 before i know what's happened :wtf:

as i pick myself up off the ground , battered and bruised, and there's stoney , craddling a p14 , stroking it and calling it "my precious" :lol:

it's on now mate . i'm gunna get up there so early tomorrow ........ wait, what's that noise :huh: i think it's stoney letting the air out of me tires so i can't beat him to the alladdin's cave of milsurps and p14's ...... :lol:

:drinks: :drinks: :thumbsup:
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Re: My new P14

Post by Stoney » 01 Oct 2020, 5:21 pm

in2anity wrote:The Speer TNTs go good, especially for the price point. Keep the updates flowing Stoney, enjoying it. I’m eying off some p14s myself, in an upcoming auction, to potentially replace the No4. Looking for a 303 with a little more consistency.


That would be Australian Arms Auctions? There is 3 or 4 Winchester P14's up for grabs I see.
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Re: My new P14

Post by Stoney » 01 Oct 2020, 5:41 pm

bigrich wrote:
Stoney wrote: Anyway I intended to ring Mr Marden back and tell him he was absolutely right. And also see if I can send a couple of cases for a FLR die. As an aside I also spoke to him about a 303/270 rifle on a M17 action that was made by his father that is for sale. I will be buying that shortly.


not if i beat ya there first ole mate :P

ya shoulda seen it fellas , there i was , with a nice old custom p14 in 303-25 in my hands. admiring it's beauty , when i hear "it's mine" and a flying stoney knocks me down and grabs that p14 before i know what's happened :wtf:

as i pick myself up off the ground , battered and bruised, and there's stoney , craddling a p14 , stroking it and calling it "my precious" :lol:

it's on now mate . i'm gunna get up there so early tomorrow ........ wait, what's that noise :huh: i think it's stoney letting the air out of me tires so i can't beat him to the alladdin's cave of milsurps and p14's ...... :lol:

:drinks: :drinks: :thumbsup:


:D :lol: :lol: :lol: Well yes that is true, although beating you down would be like trying to kick a barn door in :D . I certainly do love P14 actions, especially Winchester P14 actions. Don't worry bigrich there is plenty of treasure for both of us in Alladin's Cave. :drinks:
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Re: My new P14

Post by bigrich » 01 Oct 2020, 5:44 pm

Yeah, alright. You can have the p14’s. But I got dibs on the first mg42 that turns up :P

My pta on the martini turned up :D
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Re: My new P14

Post by in2anity » 11 Oct 2020, 1:14 pm

Stoney wrote:That would be Australian Arms Auctions? There is 3 or 4 Winchester P14's up for grabs I see.


WOWSERS. Far too expensive this year. My bids crashed and burned. No4 mk1*'s unmatching are selling for $1500 dafuq :cry: Then you have to pay commission, postage, transfer on top of that :unknown: Too many people know about it now, and I guess the whole "online" system unlocks access for all.

Suddenly abusedguns isn't looking so bad... prepare yourself for expensive service rifles into the future boys :cry:
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: My new P14

Post by Stoney » 11 Oct 2020, 6:46 pm

in2anity wrote:
Stoney wrote:That would be Australian Arms Auctions? There is 3 or 4 Winchester P14's up for grabs I see.


WOWSERS. Far too expensive this year. My bids crashed and burned. No4 mk1*'s unmatching are selling for $1500 dafuq :cry: Then you have to pay commission, postage, transfer on top of that :unknown: Too many people know about it now, and I guess the whole "online" system unlocks access for all.

Suddenly abusedguns isn't looking so bad... prepare yourself for expensive service rifles into the future boys :cry:[/quote


I may have a QLD dealer you might want to talk to in2anity, he has a lot of milsurp's at realistic prices. Send me a PM if ya interested mate.
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Re: My new P14

Post by in2anity » 12 Oct 2020, 12:31 pm

Stoney wrote:I may have a QLD dealer you might want to talk to in2anity, he has a lot of milsurp's at realistic prices. Send me a PM if ya interested mate.


Thanks Stoney - i'll keep it in mind. Although after my latest stocking up tweaks, my No4 seems to be a bit more consistent now. I added a little tongue cut to the back of the front handguard capture ring, which pokes down into the cavity, preventing the front handguard from ever sliding forward and touching the ears mid-match. It really doesn't take much to alter the harmonics :shock:

It's still early days, but perhaps consistency has improved some :unknown: At least my calls on on point on the 100m and 200m line, but to be fair issues like this only really start to manifest on the 300m line and beyond, and we've only have one 300m match since the latest alteration. Basically, I still need more sample to be conclusive. It'll probably have to wait until next season now, as grade is over for 2020. Fun and games for the rest of the year, might crack out some of the fancy guns :D

If I still feel my POI is wandering mid-match, I might PM yu mate, thanks for the offer Stoney :drinks:
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: My new P14

Post by yumastepside » 09 Mar 2021, 12:45 am

Nice bit of gear Stoney......one thing that used to be done with the P14 in 303-25 was to re-chamber them to 257 Weatherby....a real screamer !

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Re: My new P14

Post by No1Mk3 » 11 Mar 2021, 2:28 am

G'day Stoney,
Very nice sporting conversion of the P'14 you have there. The sight is an Armstrong Dual Range Sightmaster made in the 1950's and intended to compete with the Lyman 48 etc. The centre knob will give you 2 different Zero points. They could be set up for right or left side mounting and although nowhere near as common as the Lyman are still not worth much more. Cheers.
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Re: My new P14

Post by Stoney » 14 Mar 2021, 9:47 am

No1Mk3 wrote:G'day Stoney,
Very nice sporting conversion of the P'14 you have there. The sight is an Armstrong Dual Range Sightmaster made in the 1950's and intended to compete with the Lyman 48 etc. The centre knob will give you 2 different Zero points. They could be set up for right or left side mounting and although nowhere near as common as the Lyman are still not worth much more. Cheers.


Thanks for that No1Mk3
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