.223 subsonic ammo

[ash_hendo]

I could see the point of a slower quieter round that uses less powder for rabbits. I used to ride a bike around the farm a lot, and you only took one gun, having a light load and heavy load with you would allow you to shoot the Rabbits and Goats from the one rifle. Never did like shooting a rabbit at 40m with a 223......

Interesting about the expansion though, no good if the vmax goes right through......

[Am88]

not how low velocities would get but 2206H can be loaded for reduced loads as well, I believe as low as 60% of the minimum charge can be used, I have personally made reduced loads for .22-250 and .308, no reason just to try it really for something to do.

[meawls]

I’ve just lately started dabbling in this area ... simply because it’s fun... and there’s not much info out there - frustrating. Happy to share results so far FWIW ... For those interested, 20 clicks upwards from a “normal” 100M zero on a scope with 1/4” increments will get you on paper. All loads with Federal match primers,and 5gns trailboss ... didn’t want to go much lower because it would leave quite an airspace in the cases, which by all accounts leads to increased deviation in velocities, which by all accounts leads to less accuracy. All were groups of 3 fired at 100 metres ... Remington 700 with 1:12 Twist: Barnes grenades 30gn: V=1729-56 FPS, 3.38” (including 2 into 0.532”); Sierra SP 40gn: V = 1430-37 (outstanding deviation!), 1.134”; Tikka FMJ 50gn: V = 1352-83, 0.500” (yep ... that’s 1/2 MOA! ... Despite the deviation). Mossberg with 1:9 Twist: Barnes: V = 1607-1728 (shocking deviation!) 2.99”; Sierra: V = 1393-1453, 2.81”; Tikka: V = 1336-94, 1.375”.

Early lessons ... I regard speed of sound at around 1080, but it’s variable dependant upon conditions ... several ballistic calculators will calculate this for you after the parameters are entered. Each of these loads easily exceed the speed of sound ... by boy-ohhh-boy were they fun to fire, especially in that massive VSSF! And how about exactly 1/2” at 100M ...?! Wouldn’t need to expand at all for easy day-long headshots. I was unsure whether these loads would stabilise in the 1:12 barrel ... but they sure did. I’ve loaded up identical loads for each rifle using 62gn Nosler Varmaggedons, and these should be much closer to the sound barrier .. not to mention point of inability to stabilise in THAT barrel. I’ll get back to you on these when I get opportunity to test.

I also plan to substitute the BR primers for magnums once I’ve found a load that sits just below the barrier ... by all accounts these tend to result in less velocity deviation ... will get back to you on this too.

[SCJ429]

Nice work Meawls. It can be fun testing slow moving bullets, one thing to remember with projectiles that are going at speeds slightly faster than the speed of sound is that pressure wave is buffeting the bullets until the bullets slows enough for the pressure wave to overtake it. If you are looking for accuracy, start the bullet at speeds behind the pressure wave so that is never in this transonic period.

The other thing about your ES results is you only have a very small sample, three shots. If you reshot your test loads, you will find the the results may be very different. You will find that neck tension and case capacity differences have more influence on the ES than the load you are testing.

[bladeracer]

I’ve just lately started dabbling in this area ... simply because it’s fun... and there’s not much info out there - frustrating. Happy to share results so far FWIW ... For those interested, 20 clicks upwards from a “normal” 100M zero on a scope with 1/4” increments will get you on paper. All loads with Federal match primers,and 5gns trailboss ... didn’t want to go much lower because it would leave quite an airspace in the cases, which by all accounts leads to increased deviation in velocities, which by all accounts leads to less accuracy. All were groups of 3 fired at 100 metres ... Remington 700 with 1:12 Twist: Barnes grenades 30gn: V=1729-56 FPS, 3.38” (including 2 into 0.532”); Sierra SP 40gn: V = 1430-37 (outstanding deviation!), 1.134”; Tikka FMJ 50gn: V = 1352-83, 0.500” (yep ... that’s 1/2 MOA! ... Despite the deviation). Mossberg with 1:9 Twist: Barnes: V = 1607-1728 (shocking deviation!) 2.99”; Sierra: V = 1393-1453, 2.81”; Tikka: V = 1336-94, 1.375”.

Early lessons ... I regard speed of sound at around 1080, but it’s variable dependant upon conditions ... several ballistic calculators will calculate this for you after the parameters are entered. Each of these loads easily exceed the speed of sound ... by boy-ohhh-boy were they fun to fire, especially in that massive VSSF! And how about exactly 1/2” at 100M ...?! Wouldn’t need to expand at all for easy day-long headshots. I was unsure whether these loads would stabilise in the 1:12 barrel ... but they sure did. I’ve loaded up identical loads for each rifle using 62gn Nosler Varmaggedons, and these should be much closer to the sound barrier .. not to mention point of inability to stabilise in THAT barrel. I’ll get back to you on these when I get opportunity to test.

I also plan to substitute the BR primers for magnums once I’ve found a load that sits just below the barrier ... by all accounts these tend to result in less velocity deviation ... will get back to you on this too.

Use heavy bullets if you want subsonic, very light bullets need _extremely_ small charges to stay subsonic. 4gn of Trailboss should put a 55gn jacketed bullet in the subsonic area, adjust to find the sweet spot, barrel length plays a role in your velocity, also whether you neck-size or FLS the brass.
I wouldn't hang my hat on the results of three-shot "groups" either, but they're okay to get ballpark velocities so you know how close to subsonic you are.

[meawls]

I wouldn't hang my hat on the results of three-shot "groups" either, but they're okay to get ballpark velocities so you know how close to subsonic you are.[/quote]


That’s exactly what these loads were ... simply to establish ballpark, and shared for the community due to their being not much else out there ... No point in batching up lots of loads if they ain’t where I need em to be !! I’ll be letting you know when things really start to rock and roll.

Can anybody verify or refute whether lots of airspace in a TB load = lots of velocity deviation .... all else being equal ... or is this hearsay/furphy??

[SCJ429]

Four grain of Trailboss in your 223 case should be about 70% of the case filled depending how deep you seat the pill. There is nothing to say that your ES will be any bigger than if you filled it to the base of your projectile. It might be but it might be better.

For 100 metre, or 50 metre shooting with slow moving projectiles, a high ES may not be a problem. You may find your best groups are achieved with an ES of 30 fps or more. The amount of vertical induced by the extra speed will not have a huge impact at those ranges. Get your bullet into a node, keeping it subsonic and don't worry too much about your ES and SD.

[bladeracer]

That’s exactly what these loads were ... simply to establish ballpark, and shared for the community due to their being not much else out there ... No point in batching up lots of loads if they ain’t where I need em to be !! I’ll be letting you know when things really start to rock and roll.

Can anybody verify or refute whether lots of airspace in a TB load = lots of velocity deviation .... all else being equal ... or is this hearsay/furphy??

I haven't experimented with case fill specifically, but I find that TB sometimes "tops out" at a velocity at which increasing the charge makes little more velocity, but can be worthwhile for better accuracy. This would indicate to me that it is worth experimenting with it, but I've had no problem getting 100m MoA or better subsonic loads in virtually all my rifles. You could try some dacron or something on top of the small powder charges and see if that gives an improvement.

If you are loading subsonic due to noise concerns I've found it's not always necessary to actually go subsonic with light bullets, 2400fps 32gn bullets in .204 and 2000fps 58gn in .243 are both pretty gentle on the hearing.

[bladeracer]

Four grain of Trailboss in your 223 case should be about 70% of the case filled depending how deep you seat the pill.

My brass generally holds 10gn of TB, 8.6gn to the base of the neck.

[SCJ429]

Thanks Blade, four grains is less than half then. I remember starting at four grains which was subsonic and could be shot without hearing protection. Groups were not great at 50 metres.

[bladeracer]

Thanks Blade, four grains is less than half then. I remember starting at four grains which was subsonic and could be shot without hearing protection. Groups were not great at 50 metres.

I only went down to 3.6gn behind a 52gn jacketed bullet. I agree, at 100m off a bipod I put five of these loads into 120mm, 4MoA, didn't record the velocity but definitely subsonic. 4gn give me 1180fps with a 52gn bullet, but 2.5MoA at 100m - the bullet is swaged from .22LR brass so doesn't shoot all that great anyway at normal velocities, about 30mm 5rd groups at 100m, occasionally dropping under MoA. My preferred light load in .223Rem is 8gn behind the 55gn RooMax, it's making 1800fps, but is hearing friendly and accurate.

I don't know how my 8"-twist, 22" barrel will translate to your rifles, but I would lean toward a heavier soft-point or hollow-point bullet if you want good accuracy to 100m. Something like the Hornady 60gn SP or VMax, or 62gn FMJ, or even the 62gn Gold Dot. I haven't put a great deal of effort into a good subsonic load in .223Rem as I'd already done the work with so many others, but I'll endeavour to do more testing with different bullets. I have some bullets I want to test in the .223 anyway, 85gn, 90gn and 33gn.

[Stix]

I wouldn't hang my hat on the results of three-shot "groups" either, but they're okay to get ballpark velocities so you know how close to subsonic you are.

That’s exactly what these loads were ... simply to establish ballpark, and shared for the community due to their being not much else out there ... No point in batching up lots of loads if they ain’t where I need em to be !! I’ll be letting you know when things really start to rock and roll.

Can anybody verify or refute whether lots of airspace in a TB load = lots of velocity deviation .... all else being equal ... or is this hearsay/furphy??[/quote]
Hard to say without a "see froo" action & cartridge case...
_____ _____ _____ _____
(What the hell is going on with the formatting of "quotes"...its a bloody crap idea quite frankly...cant tell who said what...)

Anyway...
You could experiment by randomly shooting a bunch of the same loads...then shooting a bunch of the same loads but having tapped the butt stock while rifle is vertical to get all the powder to the primer...then carefully lower rifle & shoot...(all over a chrono of course)
Then you can tell us for sure...

However id hazzard a guess it may well be the case (what you've heard-air space=large ES)...

I once (stupidly) loaded a damaged/out of round primer in a batch of trailboss load test... fired the case without thinking & it carried on like approaching a feral cat caught in a possum trap (not that id know what thats like... )

It hissed pissed & farted & spat at me through the back of the bolt, & when i got home & pulled the bullet (it didnt launch) i found all the powder hadnt burnt...from memory atleast half the powder remained & my action was left as gritty as...as...as...well it was gritty...

For perspective, the load was actually close to Blade's load of 8.5gr in a 204 case, shooting a 32gr Zmax.

Also, ive never got any good chrono figures shooting trailboss in hunting rifles...& never got better consistancy than MOA (1"/@ 100yds)...but ive probably not even shot even a blink of what Blade has...

[ash_hendo]

"Four grain of Trailboss in your 223 case should be about 70% of the case filled depending how deep you seat the pill."

Has anyone used AS30N? Does it fill the case a bit more? I've heard 50-60% is the max you should go without filler.

Noise is a concern, but so is meat damage, but it should be at least as lethal as a 1200fps 40gn 22LR Hollow-point: Which is going to meet the requirements better I wonder ? Heavy 90gn@1070fps or 40gn at 1800fps in a 1:8 twist 16.5" barrel....

[bladeracer]

"Four grain of Trailboss in your 223 case should be about 70% of the case filled depending how deep you seat the pill."

Has anyone used AS30N? Does it fill the case a bit more? I've heard 50-60% is the max you should go without filler.

Noise is a concern, but so is meat damage, but it should be at least as lethal as a 1200fps 40gn 22LR Hollow-point: Which is going to meet the requirements better I wonder ? Heavy 90gn@1070fps or 40gn at 1800fps in a 1:8 twist 16.5" barrel....

I have AP70N but I haven't tried it in rifle rounds as I have Trailboss - I love Trailboss.
If you're really concerned about case fiĺl just use some filler on top of the charge, I've never bothered and I've been below 300fps in .243. I look at greatly-reduced loads as being for close-range, so 100m MoA is way good enough for me, I haven't done much to try to build subsonic long-range precision loads outside of .38, .357, .44 lever-action loads for shooting silhouettes out to 200m.

.22LR is soft lead which deforms regardless of design. Jacketed bullets are contained by the jacket so they struggle to deform when used thousands of fps below their design remit. A heavier bullet carries more energy at the same velocity, but at subsonic speeds it's very likely to pencil through anything up to about fox size. As with .22LR, shot placement is vital. FMJ bullets kill just fine as long as you place them properly. A soft lead .22LR bullet is very often a better hunting choice if you don't need the deeper penetration of a heavier bullet. Or even better, cast your own heavy soft lead bullets, a 180gn pure lead 8x57mm bullet at 1080fps hits pretty damned hard.

Something I am playing with just now is jacketed bullets in .22LR.

[Oldbloke]

Slightly off topic
Try 7.6 gr AS50N 55gr SP about 2200fps just aa tad over moa.

[Bill]

Im struggling to understand the point of this thread, 22LR

[bladeracer]

Im struggling to understand the point of this thread, 22LR

Versatility primarily I think, I always have low-velocity rounds with me in the field as very few shots require the full effect of whatever I'm hunting with.
Plus, the experimenting is good fun and educational.

[Oldbloke]

Im struggling to understand the point of this thread, 22LR

Agree

[SCJ429]

Im struggling to understand the point of this thread, 22LR

The point of a thread is to simulate conversation about a topic that interests you. After two pages this thread has done it very well.

There is no obligation for you to read it or post on it if it doesn't interest you. You wouldn't go to a golf forum and tell them how pointless you see their game, would you?

[Oldbloke]

Come on, all Bill is saying is that in a practical way a 22 would fill the need. Almost everyone has a 22lr, so why bother. But duplicating a 22 hornet can make sense in some cases.

[Bill]

absolutely spot on Oldbloke, if anything Im reading some reloading suggestion ( low powder charges) that if a new reloader attempted may end up with only a partially covered primer.

Nuthin wrong with my opinion and Ill continue to freely express it SCJ429

Ive successful downloaded a 7.62x39 to around 900fps with TB with a sound similar sound to a meaty 22 so threads on subsonic load interest me.

[bladeracer]

Come on, all Bill is saying is that in a practical way a 22 would fill the need. Almost everyone has a 22lr, so why bother. But duplicating a 22 hornet can make sense in some cases.

Because not many of us want to carry two or three firearms every time we go out, one rifle with different loads can do different jobs.
It the reason they've made chamber inserts for shotguns for a century or more, so they can shoot lower-powered rounds when required.

[bladeracer]

absolutely spot on Oldbloke, if anything Im reading some reloading suggestion ( low powder charges) that if a new reloader attempted may end up with only a partially covered primer.

Nuthin wrong with my opinion and Ill continue to freely express it SCJ429

Ive successful downloaded a 7.62x39 to around 900fps with TB with a sound similar sound to a meaty 22 so threads on subsonic load interest me.

Why would a partially covered primer matter?

[SCJ429]

absolutely spot on Oldbloke, if anything Im reading some reloading suggestion ( low powder charges) that if a new reloader attempted may end up with only a partially covered primer.

Nuthin wrong with my opinion and Ill continue to freely express it SCJ429

Ive successful downloaded a 7.62x39 to around 900fps with TB with a sound similar sound to a meaty 22 so threads on subsonic load interest me.

What if everyone thought that this forum was a place for people interested in firearms to discuss issues in a positive and constructive manner. If you had something to contribute regarding your experiences with your 762 x 39 it would make interesting reading. I would not expect anyone to post that your efforts were pointless.

In regards to the low powder charge, four grains of Trailboss is ADIs recommended subsonic powder charge.

[Bill]

Lol thank SCJ429, trailboss data is already available online for most cases a apart from the small stuff. Deep seating a long Heavy projectile into the ruski case makes it one of the best for subsonic loads, this combination doesn't exist for the 223.

A subsonic 223 load just makes little sense for so many reason which plenty of otherwise have already pointed out.

Happy to have my posts challenged or criticised, safety is paramount to me and those around me

[sungazer]

OK you two back in your boxes no need to argue.

Yes Bill a lot of cartridges and the way they are loaded make no sense to me either but others enjoy them and that is all that matters.

I suppose shooting a 40grn bullet at 1080 fps means you dont have to buy a 22LR

[Bill]

Twist rates also seem to present other problems, thou I'm sure proj selection may alleviate this

https://loaddata.com/Article/LoadDevelo ... -Loads/234

[Oldbloke]

OK you two back in your boxes no need to argue.

Lets kiss and make up.

Hand shake.jpeg (44.29 KiB) Viewed 6596 times

[duncan61]

I started a thread on subsonic .243 but this thread is running better and I am learning what I need.If I bite the bullet and spend $150 on 1,5 kg of trailboss I will probably go with the fill to the base of the neck and weigh the charge.A consideration that has not been mentioned is the firearm that is intended to be used.My .243 is A black plastic and steel HOWA that I have painted the barrel camo my .222 and 7mm Rem are stainless and a bit shiny for late afternoon hunting rabbits.The property I have just gained is 20 acres in a bush community there are neighbors and people shoot but not high power centre fire rifles.A subsonic 80gn PSP in 6mm should do the job.I will zero for 40 metres.I did this on a property when I had a scoped .22LR and Winny Z ammo.I had a range finder so knew exact distance.The house I was working on was up on a sand pad and the rabbits were in the valley where the river went past amongst a pile off old dead cars.I head shot one at 72 metres with about an inch of hold over.I had the rifle sitting on the benchrest at the end of the trench I was working in so I would look up every now and then and if a bunny was out I would crawl along the trench then take my shot.I got 6 and gave 2 to the blokes italian mum.The only thing I did wrong was bury all the guts and skin in the trench and it got dug up and spread every where.

[bladeracer]

Lol thank SCJ429, trailboss data is already available online for most cases a apart from the small stuff. Deep seating a long Heavy projectile into the ruski case makes it one of the best for subsonic loads, this combination doesn't exist for the 223.

A subsonic 223 load just makes little sense for so many reason which plenty of otherwise have already pointed out.

Happy to have my posts challenged or criticised, safety is paramount to me and those around me

I haven't tried shooting the 80gn at subsonic velocities but I'll try them and see how they go. Even a 50gn subsonic bullet offers advantages over .22LR.