.223 subsonic ammo

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.223 subsonic ammo

Post by hiyoh » 24 Mar 2014, 6:10 pm

Hi,

Looking for some info on .223 subsonic ammo.

Speed of sound is 1,125 fps right (thanks Wikipedia) so you want to be shooting a bit slower than that.

I found a little info from US guys doing sub sonic ammo for their AR15's. Looking at ADI reloading data for the .223 though, even with the heaviest bullet on the starting load the velocity and with the slowest velocity powder, it's still spitting them out at 2,270 fps.

To get another 1,000+ fps off that you'd obviously have to go weeeell below minimum safe load according to ADI. By miles...

What's the trick here?
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by Chronos » 24 Mar 2014, 6:24 pm

Loading very small charges of regular powders in cases can be a dangerous activity, a event known as secondary effect is something you should read about.

There are powders produced that are suitable for such activities and i believe some companies provide date for these powders. ADI is one such company and produces trail boss for subsonic loads and lists 4gr of trail boss will drive a 55gr sp at around 1075fps in a .223

Take a look at the current ADI load tables here

http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloade ... +x+45mm%29

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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by yoshie » 24 Mar 2014, 6:51 pm

+1 for trailboss
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by 1290 » 24 Mar 2014, 7:35 pm

here it is, already loaded for you;
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by Chronos » 24 Mar 2014, 7:38 pm

Not sure if you're serious :shock:

The OP is asking about .223 ammo, not .22lr ammo

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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by hiyoh » 24 Mar 2014, 7:47 pm

Ah I see.

I missed the two lines with AS30N and Trail Bosss in the ADI list.

Max 3.2gr of the AS30N for 1060FPS and 4gr for the Trail Boss like Chronos said both keep you sub sonic.

The only two loads in all that list though.

Not a popular activity the subsonic 223 I guess.
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by Broom » 24 Mar 2014, 7:48 pm

Chronos wrote:The OP is asking about .223 ammo, not .22lr ammo


Yeah, you don't want that hiyoh...
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by Chronos » 24 Mar 2014, 8:12 pm

hiyoh wrote:Ah I see.

I missed the two lines with AS30N and Trail Bosss in the ADI list.

Max 3.2gr of the AS30N for 1060FPS and 4gr for the Trail Boss like Chronos said both keep you sub sonic.

The only two loads in all that list though.

Not a popular activity the subsonic 223 I guess.


i'm neither experienced with subsonic centerfire ammo nor a fan but if you were stuck with a .223 and a problem neighbour or a small backstop a 55gr bullet at those speeds could be quite effective on small game but boy, you'd need to know your bullet drop :lol: you could even cast your own for cheap plinking

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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by Norton » 24 Mar 2014, 9:44 pm

Chronos wrote:but boy, you'd need to know your bullet drop :lol:


You could just about throw them better :lol:
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by 1290 » 24 Mar 2014, 10:16 pm

Chronos wrote:Not sure if you're serious :shock:

The OP is asking about .223 ammo, not .22lr ammo

Chronos


I did get that part.... he wants a 0.22 Calibre projectile at subsonic velocity.
If the projectile is shot from a rimfire or centrefire whats the difference?
you can buy subsonic rimfire rounds off the shelf, is my point.
Not as cool shooting them out of a rimfire I guess.
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by Chronos » 25 Mar 2014, 7:59 am

1290 wrote:I did get that part.... he wants a 0.22 Calibre projectile at subsonic velocity.
If the projectile is shot from a rimfire or centrefire whats the difference?
you can buy subsonic rimfire rounds off the shelf, is my point.
Not as cool shooting them out of a rimfire I guess.


Sorry 1290, missed that the first time but I see what you were saying.

My mate recently saw the light too and traded his .22mag for a .22lr. Almost half the noise and just as effective at the ranges he is shooting rabbits at.

Another mate loads cast bullets for his .308 as his fox load. Why? I don't know, he has several .22lr and .223 rifles. Lol

It's a funny world isn't it. :)

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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by Ariat » 25 Mar 2014, 8:49 am

Chronos wrote:but boy, you'd need to know your bullet drop :lol:


Put it into a ballistics calculator just for fun.

Zeroed at 100... about 45" drop at 200m and 154" drop at 300m...

At 500m it's about 660" drop :lol:
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by 1290 » 25 Mar 2014, 7:53 pm

Chronos wrote:Sorry 1290, missed that the first time but I see what you were saying.

My mate recently saw the light too and traded his .22mag for a .22lr. Almost half the noise and just as effective at the ranges he is shooting rabbits at.

Another mate loads cast bullets for his .308 as his fox load. Why? I don't know, he has several .22lr and .223 rifles. Lol

It's a funny world isn't it. :)


It certainly is funny, I think aussie shooters going for the 300AAC is funny enough, then they go for the 223AAC too!!!
The 310 Cadet was/is apparently too gay for these guys who then want to load down a high vel 0.30 cal centrefire to pedestrian velocities as well a 3000fps centrfire 0.22 to rimfire sub velocities... I scratch my head....but if thats what you wants... go for it.
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by Chronos » 25 Mar 2014, 8:25 pm

Ariat wrote:Put it into a ballistics calculator just for fun.

Zeroed at 100... about 45" drop at 200m and 154" drop at 300m...

At 500m it's about 660" drop :lol:


don't worry about 500m, go back and compare say 120m then 145m, an easy ranging mistake to make but you may find the drop difference would mean a complete miss

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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by Blackened » 26 Mar 2014, 10:25 am

1290 wrote:300AAC is funny enough, then they go for the 223AAC too!


Next is .17AAC.

You put a few drop of coke in your barrel and drop down 1/8th of a Mentos.

Super quiet, and little recoil...
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by pip » 26 Mar 2014, 10:32 am

I've been there with the trail boss, loaded them for my 8yo lad to have some shots with the .223 while we were using it until he was happy to use full loads.

Regardles of why or when you would want to use sub .223 the main thing to know is the pills made for the .223 are designed to expand at transonic velocities.

eg 2800-3200 fps for .223. I've dug 55gr V-Max out of the dirt and at subsonic speeds they are still intact, still got the red plastic.

I have not shot a rabbit with these but it more than likely will be like using solid point .22lr and the buggers run off half the time with a body shot.

I would like to try a 80gr pill on vermin, I'm thinking if you are going to throw something at a rabbit at 1080 fps it may as well be something heavy. (load data if anyone has some )

Cast pills would be best at this speed, hence why .22lr is all lead, not sure if any suppliers make cast .223 pills.

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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by Wobble » 27 Mar 2014, 12:48 pm

Blackened wrote:Next is .17AAC.

You put a few drop of coke in your barrel and drop down 1/8th of a Mentos.


Coke and Mentos. Next on the prohibited items list.
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by Westy » 05 Apr 2014, 7:17 am

1290 wrote:
Chronos wrote:Sorry 1290, missed that the first time but I see what you were saying.

My mate recently saw the light too and traded his .22mag for a .22lr. Almost half the noise and just as effective at the ranges he is shooting rabbits at.

Another mate loads cast bullets for his .308 as his fox load. Why? I don't know, he has several .22lr and .223 rifles. Lol

It's a funny world isn't it. :)


It certainly is funny, I think aussie shooters going for the 300AAC is funny enough, then they go for the 223AAC too!!!
The 310 Cadet was/is apparently too gay for these guys who then want to load down a high vel 0.30 cal centrefire to pedestrian velocities as well a 3000fps centrfire 0.22 to rimfire sub velocities... I scratch my head....but if thats what you wants... go for it.



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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by ash_hendo » 20 Nov 2019, 8:48 pm

I could see the point of a slower quieter round that uses less powder for rabbits. I used to ride a bike around the farm a lot, and you only took one gun, having a light load and heavy load with you would allow you to shoot the Rabbits and Goats from the one rifle. Never did like shooting a rabbit at 40m with a 223......

Interesting about the expansion though, no good if the vmax goes right through......
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by Am88 » 22 Nov 2019, 10:18 am

not how low velocities would get but 2206H can be loaded for reduced loads as well, I believe as low as 60% of the minimum charge can be used, I have personally made reduced loads for .22-250 and .308, no reason just to try it really for something to do.
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by meawls » 23 Nov 2019, 1:02 pm

I’ve just lately started dabbling in this area ... simply because it’s fun... and there’s not much info out there - frustrating. Happy to share results so far FWIW ... For those interested, 20 clicks upwards from a “normal” 100M zero on a scope with 1/4” increments will get you on paper. All loads with Federal match primers,and 5gns trailboss ... didn’t want to go much lower because it would leave quite an airspace in the cases, which by all accounts leads to increased deviation in velocities, which by all accounts leads to less accuracy. All were groups of 3 fired at 100 metres ... Remington 700 with 1:12 Twist: Barnes grenades 30gn: V=1729-56 FPS, 3.38” (including 2 into 0.532”); Sierra SP 40gn: V = 1430-37 (outstanding deviation!), 1.134”; Tikka FMJ 50gn: V = 1352-83, 0.500” (yep ... that’s 1/2 MOA! ... Despite the deviation). Mossberg with 1:9 Twist: Barnes: V = 1607-1728 (shocking deviation!) 2.99”; Sierra: V = 1393-1453, 2.81”; Tikka: V = 1336-94, 1.375”.

Early lessons ... I regard speed of sound at around 1080, but it’s variable dependant upon conditions ... several ballistic calculators will calculate this for you after the parameters are entered. Each of these loads easily exceed the speed of sound ... by boy-ohhh-boy were they fun to fire, especially in that massive VSSF! And how about exactly 1/2” at 100M ...?! Wouldn’t need to expand at all for easy day-long headshots. I was unsure whether these loads would stabilise in the 1:12 barrel ... but they sure did. I’ve loaded up identical loads for each rifle using 62gn Nosler Varmaggedons, and these should be much closer to the sound barrier .. not to mention point of inability to stabilise in THAT barrel. I’ll get back to you on these when I get opportunity to test.

I also plan to substitute the BR primers for magnums once I’ve found a load that sits just below the barrier ... by all accounts these tend to result in less velocity deviation ... will get back to you on this too.
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by SCJ429 » 23 Nov 2019, 1:59 pm

Nice work Meawls. It can be fun testing slow moving bullets, one thing to remember with projectiles that are going at speeds slightly faster than the speed of sound is that pressure wave is buffeting the bullets until the bullets slows enough for the pressure wave to overtake it. If you are looking for accuracy, start the bullet at speeds behind the pressure wave so that is never in this transonic period.

The other thing about your ES results is you only have a very small sample, three shots. If you reshot your test loads, you will find the the results may be very different. You will find that neck tension and case capacity differences have more influence on the ES than the load you are testing.
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by bladeracer » 23 Nov 2019, 2:33 pm

meawls wrote:I’ve just lately started dabbling in this area ... simply because it’s fun... and there’s not much info out there - frustrating. Happy to share results so far FWIW ... For those interested, 20 clicks upwards from a “normal” 100M zero on a scope with 1/4” increments will get you on paper. All loads with Federal match primers,and 5gns trailboss ... didn’t want to go much lower because it would leave quite an airspace in the cases, which by all accounts leads to increased deviation in velocities, which by all accounts leads to less accuracy. All were groups of 3 fired at 100 metres ... Remington 700 with 1:12 Twist: Barnes grenades 30gn: V=1729-56 FPS, 3.38” (including 2 into 0.532”); Sierra SP 40gn: V = 1430-37 (outstanding deviation!), 1.134”; Tikka FMJ 50gn: V = 1352-83, 0.500” (yep ... that’s 1/2 MOA! ... Despite the deviation). Mossberg with 1:9 Twist: Barnes: V = 1607-1728 (shocking deviation!) 2.99”; Sierra: V = 1393-1453, 2.81”; Tikka: V = 1336-94, 1.375”.

Early lessons ... I regard speed of sound at around 1080, but it’s variable dependant upon conditions ... several ballistic calculators will calculate this for you after the parameters are entered. Each of these loads easily exceed the speed of sound ... by boy-ohhh-boy were they fun to fire, especially in that massive VSSF! And how about exactly 1/2” at 100M ...?! Wouldn’t need to expand at all for easy day-long headshots. I was unsure whether these loads would stabilise in the 1:12 barrel ... but they sure did. I’ve loaded up identical loads for each rifle using 62gn Nosler Varmaggedons, and these should be much closer to the sound barrier .. not to mention point of inability to stabilise in THAT barrel. I’ll get back to you on these when I get opportunity to test.

I also plan to substitute the BR primers for magnums once I’ve found a load that sits just below the barrier ... by all accounts these tend to result in less velocity deviation ... will get back to you on this too.


Use heavy bullets if you want subsonic, very light bullets need _extremely_ small charges to stay subsonic. 4gn of Trailboss should put a 55gn jacketed bullet in the subsonic area, adjust to find the sweet spot, barrel length plays a role in your velocity, also whether you neck-size or FLS the brass.
I wouldn't hang my hat on the results of three-shot "groups" either, but they're okay to get ballpark velocities so you know how close to subsonic you are.
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by meawls » 23 Nov 2019, 2:53 pm

I wouldn't hang my hat on the results of three-shot "groups" either, but they're okay to get ballpark velocities so you know how close to subsonic you are.[/quote]


That’s exactly what these loads were ... simply to establish ballpark, and shared for the community due to their being not much else out there ... No point in batching up lots of loads if they ain’t where I need em to be !! I’ll be letting you know when things really start to rock and roll.

Can anybody verify or refute whether lots of airspace in a TB load = lots of velocity deviation .... all else being equal ... or is this hearsay/furphy??
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by SCJ429 » 23 Nov 2019, 3:28 pm

Four grain of Trailboss in your 223 case should be about 70% of the case filled depending how deep you seat the pill. There is nothing to say that your ES will be any bigger than if you filled it to the base of your projectile. It might be but it might be better.

For 100 metre, or 50 metre shooting with slow moving projectiles, a high ES may not be a problem. You may find your best groups are achieved with an ES of 30 fps or more. The amount of vertical induced by the extra speed will not have a huge impact at those ranges. Get your bullet into a node, keeping it subsonic and don't worry too much about your ES and SD.
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by bladeracer » 23 Nov 2019, 4:21 pm

meawls wrote:That’s exactly what these loads were ... simply to establish ballpark, and shared for the community due to their being not much else out there ... No point in batching up lots of loads if they ain’t where I need em to be !! I’ll be letting you know when things really start to rock and roll.

Can anybody verify or refute whether lots of airspace in a TB load = lots of velocity deviation .... all else being equal ... or is this hearsay/furphy??


I haven't experimented with case fill specifically, but I find that TB sometimes "tops out" at a velocity at which increasing the charge makes little more velocity, but can be worthwhile for better accuracy. This would indicate to me that it is worth experimenting with it, but I've had no problem getting 100m MoA or better subsonic loads in virtually all my rifles. You could try some dacron or something on top of the small powder charges and see if that gives an improvement.

If you are loading subsonic due to noise concerns I've found it's not always necessary to actually go subsonic with light bullets, 2400fps 32gn bullets in .204 and 2000fps 58gn in .243 are both pretty gentle on the hearing.
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by bladeracer » 23 Nov 2019, 4:36 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Four grain of Trailboss in your 223 case should be about 70% of the case filled depending how deep you seat the pill.


My brass generally holds 10gn of TB, 8.6gn to the base of the neck.
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by SCJ429 » 23 Nov 2019, 5:29 pm

Thanks Blade, four grains is less than half then. I remember starting at four grains which was subsonic and could be shot without hearing protection. Groups were not great at 50 metres.
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by bladeracer » 23 Nov 2019, 5:53 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Thanks Blade, four grains is less than half then. I remember starting at four grains which was subsonic and could be shot without hearing protection. Groups were not great at 50 metres.


I only went down to 3.6gn behind a 52gn jacketed bullet. I agree, at 100m off a bipod I put five of these loads into 120mm, 4MoA, didn't record the velocity but definitely subsonic. 4gn give me 1180fps with a 52gn bullet, but 2.5MoA at 100m - the bullet is swaged from .22LR brass so doesn't shoot all that great anyway at normal velocities, about 30mm 5rd groups at 100m, occasionally dropping under MoA. My preferred light load in .223Rem is 8gn behind the 55gn RooMax, it's making 1800fps, but is hearing friendly and accurate.

I don't know how my 8"-twist, 22" barrel will translate to your rifles, but I would lean toward a heavier soft-point or hollow-point bullet if you want good accuracy to 100m. Something like the Hornady 60gn SP or VMax, or 62gn FMJ, or even the 62gn Gold Dot. I haven't put a great deal of effort into a good subsonic load in .223Rem as I'd already done the work with so many others, but I'll endeavour to do more testing with different bullets. I have some bullets I want to test in the .223 anyway, 85gn, 90gn and 33gn.
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Re: .223 subsonic ammo

Post by Stix » 23 Nov 2019, 9:20 pm

meawls wrote:I wouldn't hang my hat on the results of three-shot "groups" either, but they're okay to get ballpark velocities so you know how close to subsonic you are.



That’s exactly what these loads were ... simply to establish ballpark, and shared for the community due to their being not much else out there ... No point in batching up lots of loads if they ain’t where I need em to be !! I’ll be letting you know when things really start to rock and roll.

Can anybody verify or refute whether lots of airspace in a TB load = lots of velocity deviation .... all else being equal ... or is this hearsay/furphy??[/quote]
Hard to say without a "see froo" action & cartridge case...
_____ _____ _____ _____
(What the hell is going on with the formatting of "quotes"...its a bloody crap idea quite frankly...cant tell who said what...)

Anyway...:)
You could experiment by randomly shooting a bunch of the same loads...then shooting a bunch of the same loads but having tapped the butt stock while rifle is vertical to get all the powder to the primer...then carefully lower rifle & shoot...(all over a chrono of course)
Then you can tell us for sure... :)

However id hazzard a guess it may well be the case (what you've heard-air space=large ES)...

I once (stupidly) loaded a damaged/out of round primer in a batch of trailboss load test... fired the case without thinking & it carried on like approaching a feral cat caught in a possum trap (not that id know what thats like... 8-) )

It hissed pissed & farted & spat at me through the back of the bolt, & when i got home & pulled the bullet (it didnt launch) i found all the powder hadnt burnt...from memory atleast half the powder remained & my action was left as gritty as...as...as...well it was gritty... :lol:

For perspective, the load was actually close to Blade's load of 8.5gr in a 204 case, shooting a 32gr Zmax.

Also, ive never got any good chrono figures shooting trailboss in hunting rifles...& never got better consistancy than MOA (1"/@ 100yds)...but ive probably not even shot even a blink of what Blade has...
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