Shooting with vs without Bipods.

[5Tom]

I think I've discovered that my Harris Bipod might be causing instability on the bench during load development. It's funny though, my best group was performed with the bipod on, followed by 3 different loads with scattering results, then we took the bipod off for the 5th load and it was a tight group.

Has anyone else experienced this? Am I right to assume that a Bipod can alter the harmonics in the barrel to the point where it effects point of impact? My harris swivel bipod is attached via the front stud in the stock.

[Ariat]

I don't know about harmonics specifically, but it definitely has an impact.

I find (as do most other I think) that using the bipod makes my rifle jump more with recoil rather than just move backwards.

For best accuracy, shooting off a rest of some sort is definitely better than a bipod IMO.

[Kipper]

Stick a bit of shaggy carpet or soft rubber under the legs.

That'll help to take the jump out of it, especially on hard surfaces like concrete shooting bench or hard wood.

[Lorgar]

A rest is definitely better than a bipod in my experience.

Using same rear rest, I shoot better groups with all my centrefire rifles off a front rest than when using a bipod. Shot all my best groups off the rest.

That's for .243, 7mm-08 and .308 all, and a mates 300 win mag as well.

[von_klitzing]

"Bipods support the weight of the rifle fore-end but do little to manage the recoil and hence the consistent release of the projectile."

This is an extract from an article someone posted previously.

Read the full article here;
http://www.precisionshooting.com.au/dow ... forend.pdf

[5Tom]

Thing is, if I create a handload that is accurate using a rifle rest, how can I be confident with shot placement if a bipod is going to throw POI out in the field?

[SendIt]

Yep, the bipod hop isn't ideal for maximum accuracy.

If you must use the bipod try loading it (Google for it, but in short you just lean forward a little and apply a little forward pressure).

Takes a little practice to perfect but this will reduce the hop also and improve your accuracy when done consistently.

[headspace]

I may be a bit old fashioned and would rather not use a bipod. On a hard surface like a concrete bench they have a tendency to cause vertical stringing.

In the field, if I need to use a rest, I'll use my day pack.

Also bipods are just another weight on the rifle that can interfere with balance and snag bushes.

So no bipods for me.

JD

[Khan]

In the field, if I need to use a rest, I'll use my day pack.

This to you 5Tom.

No need to go out and buy a fancy front rest, just try shooting off your backpack of a thick firm pillow.

See if someone had the range has one of those MaxBox things maybe.

Just give any firm platform other than the bipod a go and see how you go.

[Apollo]

Thing is, if I create a handload that is accurate using a rifle rest, how can I be confident with shot placement if a bipod is going to throw POI out in the field?

Are you "pre-loading" the Bipod on a hard surface.

The way I have approached it is I work all my load testing using a Coaxial Front Rest (Farley or SEA) and Rear Bag and find my best accuracy. Then off the same bench test those loads using a BR Bipod and note the difference. This is for hunting / varmint rifles. Other variations are put carpet on the bench and compare the difference then swap to a longer field version Bipod and again note the difference which is what the use will be out and about.

At least I know the load development is correct, the rest is getting to know how that shoots under field conditions.

Bipod bounce on a hard surface is the biggest downfall of Bipods.

[chilliman]

In the field, if I need to use a rest, I'll use my day pack.

This to you 5Tom.

No need to go out and buy a fancy front rest, just try shooting off your backpack of a thick firm pillow.

See if someone had the range has one of those MaxBox things maybe.

Just give any firm platform other than the bipod a go and see how you go.

I was at the LGS today and asked about MaxBox rests for range use - the dude told me they were not recommended for the range, their preferred use is when shooting from vehicles when hunting. don't see why you couldn't use them at the range though.

[Apollo]

It depends on what you want to do at the range.

Other than at home where I have my own range, if I go to a proper range I want to make the best of the time I am there and that is for precision shooting / load testing under different conditions.

If you are only mucking around sighting in a rifle then I see no reason why not to use this thing you call a MaxBox.

Have seen them and thought nice idea to throw over the bonnet of the vehicle etc ..... but not for serious target shooting.

Same thing with a pillow, soft bag or whatever... okay if you are just mucking around.....

Just my view. Not everyone has my interest and determination on accuracy and spends a grand or more on a front rest, yet alone the other gear.

[5Tom]

Here is the target I shot on Sunday. It was at 100m and I numbered each target for each different load I tested. When I took this picture, it was early in the day and didn't take a photo with the results for all the targets. The Boxed target is .22.

So for target 1, I got a very good group with a bipod attached.
Targets 2 and 3 were with the bipod also, but I can't understand why it scattered like that compared to Target 1.
Target 4 ended up like number 2 and 3.
Target 5 was when I took the bipod off and got similar results to target 1 (maybe ever so slightly worse)

.243 2209 70gr blitz ripley 2.JPG (147.42 KiB) Viewed 9710 times

[Chronos]

Here is the target I shot on Sunday. It was at 100m and I numbered each target for each different load I tested. When I took this picture, it was early in the day and didn't take a photo with the results for all the targets. The Boxed target is .22.

So for target 1, I got a very good group with a bipod attached.
Targets 2 and 3 were with the bipod also, but I can't understand why it scattered like that compared to Target 1.
Target 4 ended up like number 2 and 3.
Target 5 was when I took the bipod off and got similar results to target 1 (maybe ever so slightly worse)

.243 2209 70gr blitz ripley 2.JPG

no offence mate but i'm not convinced the bipod is your problem.

you list loads as .243, 70gr blitz and 44.5gr of 2209. i'd suggest that 2209 is too slow for such a light bullet out of a .243 and this might be confirmed by your lightest load being the most accurate (and a fine group with one flyer).

The 6th edition of the ADI book doesn't list loads for 2209 until bullet weights reach 80gr and then load range goes from 38.3-40.7 grains. i'll have a look at some other books but have you considered using a faster powder? i'd consider 38-40gr of 2208 for around 3550fps

Chronos

EDIT: I checked uncle nick's book and he lists a load for 70gr using 2209 of 43gr to 48gr so i retract my observations as it seems you're right in the middle of his load range (nick has been known to run some hot max loads)

[Apollo]

Chronos, glad you corrected that.

Berger Bullets even list H4350 (AR2209) in their reloading manual as 42.00 - 46.70gr (page 449) and they are known for conservitive figures with powder. Anyway, load data is not the topic here.

Looking at the targets pictured I can't say that using a Bipod has anything to do with the results on paper.

What I would like to see on paper is one load, perhaps the first and a couple of targets shot under the same conditions and equipment then make whatever change was made and see what happens.

I think the intimation is there was an equipment change between the targets... I'd say keep everything consistant ie.. stick with the Bipod. They aren't that bad.

[Chronos]

Chronos, glad you corrected that.

Berger Bullets even list H4350 (AR2209) in their reloading manual as 42.00 - 46.70gr (page 449) and they are known for conservitive figures with powder. Anyway, load data is not the topic here.

Looking at the targets pictured I can't say that using a Bipod has anything to do with the results on paper.

What I would like to see on paper is one load, perhaps the first and a couple of targets shot under the same conditions and equipment then make whatever change was made and see what happens.

I think the intimation is there was an equipment change between the targets... I'd say keep everything consistant ie.. stick with the Bipod. They aren't that bad.

I understand that the load is not the topic here and that the op only posted a photo of his first few groups but the first group is pretty good and as the powder charge went up the groups got worse.

I agree, pick a method and only change one variable at a time (powder charge)

It's possible there are other factors at work here beyond the bipod

Ive spent an hour going over three load manuals for .243 loads for 4 bullets from 65gr up to 95gr and have chosen to test 2208 for 65 and 75 weight bullets and 2209 for 85 and 95 weight bullets going off velocity and pressure numbers. I will also try two other powders if I get time.

Chronos

[5Tom]

Here's a comparison between the initial load test and the most recent test.

The only difference here is that I used a bench rest for test 1 and a bipod for test 2. Same pill, same powder, same COAL, same primers and the same batch of cases. Test 2 was supposed to narrow down on the best charge given the results from test 1.

Test 1 - Bench rest

.243 2209 70gr blitz test.JPG (107.28 KiB) Viewed 9467 times

44.5gr shows tight group without bipod.
45gr shows 3 shots extremely tight with two flyers as the barrel got hot.

Test 2 - Bipod

.243 2209 70gr blitz ripley 2.JPG (147.42 KiB) Viewed 9467 times

44.5gr with bipod and results are identical.
45gr (exactly the same in Test 1) and it's ******.

[5Tom]

I think the next test I'll be doing is making up more 44.5gr rounds and compare again with and without the bipod. If the groups remain the same, I'm stick'n with it!

[Apollo]

I think you said from target #1 the first shot was the flyer, In the other target with 44.5gr which shot was the flyer. What I'm getting at here is to see if you can get rid of the flyer and make the groups really good and consistant.

Anything can cause a flyer other than first shot out of a cold clean barrel so before trying again fire a few shots to foul the barrel before attempting your groups then try your groups but keep a note of which shot creates a fly if any. Don't know how many cases you have in your batch / rotation but if you can see when the flyer happens I would grab that case and put it to one side and keep it out of the main batch and reload them as a seperate lot next time. Don't know if you have weight sorted your cases and or bullets but that's what I do amoungst other things and I rarely if at all get a flyer shooting target. I take my time weighing powder to ensure each load is as exact as I can get using a Balance Beam Scale. I don't like or trust digital scales of any description.

My new cases once fired are US cleaned, dried and tumbled then I weight sort them from lightest to heaviest in one batch of say 100 - 150 in progression and kept that way for my target shooting but if you also use them for hunting / varminting it's a little difficult to keep them in order. Might sound strange but after I reload a batch I will then use my digital scales and quickly check all loaded rounds to see if they pretty much agree in weight and if one has a noticable difference I put a texta mark on the head of the case and note how it performs.

If your main use after you do this load development is hunting / varminting then I would concentrate on seeing where your first cold shot lands and sight in for that since that will most likely be the main event you will encounter out and about in the field, group placement with a warm bore then doesn't count.

Not knowing your main purpose out of all this I hope some of this helps. My .243W is a Tikka T3 Varmint with Single Set Trigger which has been highly modified and trued since it is also a "switch barrel / stock" to a target rifle 6.5x47 Lapua calibre.

As a .243W I have three main loads depending on my usage planned. I use 55gr Nosler Ballistic Tip, 80gr Sierra Varminter Blitz and 100gr Sierra GameKing at this stage. The later two will in future be combined and swapped to 90gr Berger Boat Tail Target Bullets (suitable for Varminting too).

I've rattled off too much, sorry.

[5Tom]

Thanks Apollo, any info is good info. I noted that the flyers on both 44.5 gr targets were the 4th and 5th shots as the barrel got hot. Thankfully the first 3 shots grouped nicely.

[headspace]

One further word on using a rest v's bipod. The rest allows the rifle to recoil freely; to slide back slightly under recoil, whereas the bipod being attached to the rifle tends to create a more erratic dynamic. When shooting for future field use, just lightly holding the forend of the rifle on the rest can give a more accurate result when translated to field use. Also, placing the forend of the rifle on the rest just in front of the magazine rather than up near the end can often yield better results.

[Seconds]

Smoother shooting of a rest (no bipod) all round in my opinion.

Closer to the result of shooting freestanding as well without the hop.

[5Tom]

On the topic of "loading" a bipod, I've tried doing it with my harris but there is no forward leverage to put load on to. The legs basically fold down to the end-point and that's about it. Other bipods such as the Atlas (although expensive) allows for forward loading, so should that yield better results because I can put forward pressure on it and allowing it to push backwards under recoil without any jumping?

[Chronos]

On the topic of "loading" a bipod, I've tried doing it with my harris but there is no forward leverage to put load on to. The legs basically fold down to the end-point and that's about it. Other bipods such as the Atlas (although expensive) allows for forward loading, so should that yield better results because I can put forward pressure on it and allowing it to push backwards under recoil without any jumping?

LOL, you've got your bipod on backwards

turn it so the legs fold forward, that will allow you to preload the bipod by pushing it forward. i've never been a fan of this technique as it changes every shot and you have to keep inching forward to follow the rifle.

Chronos

[5Tom]

They were facing forward and correctly mounted. I'm not sure exactly how much forward movement there should be, but once the legs are folded down, there are little, if any, movement for forward pressure.

[5Tom]

I'm actually thinking of modifying the bipod by cutting into the bar that limits the extension of the legs, then inserting some soft cork to add some buffer. That should allow the legs to be fully deployed and then when "loaded", the legs can over travel from its original position rather than flexing the legs.

[Joels_rody]

Would this also be the case for a 22lr with bipods or does it not make a diffence as the recoil is almost not exsistant?

[MR. WINCHESTER]

I ( mostly ) always used a bipod during my 'bunny busting' years and never felt that doing such, compromised accuracy.

NB: Thousands of rounds through .22s, .22 Magnums, .22 Hornet, .223 and 22-250 ....

( will accept that this thesis is in no way scientific ! Lol )

[Gwion]

Consistency is the key to precision. Point of impact will change from position to position, with bipod, without bipod, preload, no preload..... Do it the same, shot to shot, with a decent rifle and you should keep plugging the target, be it paper or prey.

[Browning]

Mates and I shoot of a bipod all the time at the range and in the field and all our rifles shoot groups that you'd be happy with any day of the week....
I reckon there's factors other than a bipod that are having a greater influence on groupings...