22-250 or 243

[bigrich]

okay fellas, another hypothetical question from me

which would you prefer and why :unknown

i've got a itch i need to scratch , i've got a gap between 222/223 and 270 win . i'm thinking in S/E QLD a 243 would be a nice intermediate caliber for dogs, goats and the smaller pigs that we get in this region

any and all opinions are welcome , c'mon fellas, give me a reason to buy another gun

[LawrenceA]

243 hands down.
22-250 will fling small pills really really fast and offers 20% more energy than the 223 with a 55grain pill. The 22-50 shoots flatter and faster than a 243 out to 400 yards.
But the 243 throws a bigger pill which makes a bigger hole and will provide more reliable stopping power on larger game at closer ranges. No point having a bullet at 3700 fps disintegrate on a pig.
The 270 will take over if you are looking beyond 200 yards
If your shooting small game go 22-250.
going bigger means going bigger.
That's my 2 cents anyway.

I am biased though.

[Oldbloke]

No question 243. Popular for a reason. Common, easy to find ammo almost anywhere, cases and components readily avsilable.
You could consider 7x57. But I think the pills are expensive.

[Bugman]

Definitely the 243.

[JohnV]

243 would do the job you mention but it's not a great cartridge for larger pigs and rear end shots so then the 270 can take over .
243 with 80 to 87 grain bullets works great on dogs and goats . There is no ballistic or kinetic advantage to using heavier than an 87 grain bullet on game like dogs and goats . If shooting through thick scrub at short ranges then there is an advantage to a heavier bullet but not greatly . .243 / 6mm is a recognized target caliber so lots of good bullet choice . The secret to getting a 243 to shoot well with full power loads is good bullets and good neck fit . The short neck does have some potential issues that can be minimized using skim neck turning and partial neck length sizing .

[SCJ429]

243 would do the job you mention but it's not a great cartridge for larger pigs and rear end shots so then the 270 can take over .
243 with 80 to 87 grain bullets works great on dogs and goats . There is no ballistic or kinetic advantage to using heavier than an 87 grain bullet on game like dogs and goats . If shooting through thick scrub at short ranges then there is an advantage to a heavier bullet but not greatly . .243 / 6mm is a recognized target caliber so lots of good bullet choice . The secret to getting a 243 to shoot well with full power loads is good bullets and good neck fit . The short neck does have some potential issues that can be minimized using skim neck turning and partial neck length sizing .

What are the issues around the length of the 243 neck? Does the 6mm Dasher also have these issues as its neck is even shorter? Do you think the WSM would be a better case if it had a longer neck?

[JimTom]

Mate if it is wholly a choice between the two options you have listed then I would choose the 243.
As previously mentioned, the gains of the 22/250 over the 223 are there however not that significant. For the uses you have described, the 243 with 87gn or better pills certainly fits the bill for dogs, goats and the smaller pigs.

[Madang185]

The author has both, 22/250R with Nosler 60gn Partitions is in my opinion, up there with the 243.

However in my opinion the 243 is more flexible due to the greater projectile range

[bigrich]

thanks for the replies fellas , you confirmed a already held opinion on the choice between these two calibers . i had a 243 rebarreled a while ago , a push feed mod 70, but the smith who did the job didn't bother to square the receiver which resulted in a bad shooting rifle . i got the sh!ts with the caliber at that point. i didn't realise the issue until i rebarreled to another caliber that showed up the problem due to it having a lot less case shoulder .358 win

358 win is a good hitter for quick shots at closer ranges in scrubby country pigs just lay down on the spot without a twitch .225gn gamekings give a unique effect , at close range they detonate internally with total energy transfer that has to be seen . projectile choice in this caliber can change it's performance considerably 225gn woodleighs will be on the cards if i head further north , 357 mag hollow point pistol bullets on light game are something different again

anyway , back on topic as far as rifle choice goes for 243 a sporter is more my thing than a varmit set up . i'm thinking of my favorite , simple , reliable rifle , another push feed model 70 .

or i've been looking at tikka m55's . can anyone educate me on early tikkas. some online opinions are they are better made than sako's of the same era

[AZZA'S HJ47]

Just get both mate we both know you want to

[bigrich]

Just get both mate we both know you want to

i really don't want to have to get another safe ......

[Grandadbushy]

G'day bigrich mate in my opinion the 243 is the all round caliber for hunters in Australia because it's versatile , i use a 22-250 for dogs and anything smaller it suits me fine but on saying that i too would like a 243 as it is a step up for the larger pests, it would be the perfect in between caliber of 22-250 & 270 , i've used both for years and if i had to choose only 0ne it would be the 243 simply because it covers all i need to shoot, some say you can make a 250 similar to a 243 by using heavier pills but that comes at a cost, lets say for instance in my opinion the optimum pill weight for a 250 is from 45gr - 55gr ( 50-55gr) being my choice, the 243 being (60-90gr) 87gr being my choice, both these rifles will shoot heavier or lighter but my thoughts are, use what suits you and what the rifle shoots best without having to tinker with it . Now for Tikka v sako i think it would be a personal choice for you both are good shooters , with the tikka a few mates have them and some calibers have a problem with ejection ,like the empty shell hits the bottom of the scope when ejected, they've found that it's the shape of the ejection slot as the sako is a larger opening which directs the brass at a different angle when ejecting, but if you are a good steady user of a rifle then you'll make any rifle work, in my opinion either would be fine although i'd choose the sako because i've had a reasonably good run with them for most of my shooting life, if it's price, well the tikka is slowly catching up in price to the sako and other than that little ejection problem the boys have found with their tikka then i can't see why it wouldn't be a contender for you so then it comes back to personal choice . ( I'm not much help am i)

[LawrenceA]

Assuming you are talking M55's vs L461.
To say early Tikka's are better made than the same era Sako's is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.
Back in the day just about every pro shooter I knew ran a Tikka because they were just as good and cheaper.
For as long as Sako owned Tikka the Tikka has been their cheaper option.
Made with the same barrels etcetera but a cheaper action to produce.

[Bello]

Hi Mate
I use my 223 for close range work, up to 200 meters. The 22-250 will do the same job but extends the legs a little further out. And is much louder.
The 243 is capable of utilizing a larger variety of weighted pills. From light to heavy. OSA make some nice accurate bullets for 243.
The 243 is a necked down 308. Proven cartridge, lots of brass.
The 243 in my opinion will fit your bill better. With an 87gr V-max, it will do what you need with authority. Not much kick. flat shooting.
Or you can do what I did and buy both

When I go on a hunting trip, depending on where I go, the 22LR, 223, 308 or 300WM always follow. I will usually have 2 rifles with me to cover most bases.
The 223 and 308 (or 300WM)

The 270 (with 130gr game kings) some times will get given an outing.

My2c

[mchughcb]

I'd choose neither. I'd go a 308 and be happy.

But if you forced me the 243 Win. After 10 years using it I don't mind it in terms or power or recoil as they are both pretty mild if you are shooting 20 foxes a day with it but I've found its a difficult round on the brass when it comes to reloading. The damn cases whether lapua or nosler custom are always giving me trouble in my RCBS or Redding dies. No other calibres give me problems like the 243.

[JohnV]

243 would do the job you mention but it's not a great cartridge for larger pigs and rear end shots so then the 270 can take over .
243 with 80 to 87 grain bullets works great on dogs and goats . There is no ballistic or kinetic advantage to using heavier than an 87 grain bullet on game like dogs and goats . If shooting through thick scrub at short ranges then there is an advantage to a heavier bullet but not greatly . .243 / 6mm is a recognized target caliber so lots of good bullet choice . The secret to getting a 243 to shoot well with full power loads is good bullets and good neck fit . The short neck does have some potential issues that can be minimized using skim neck turning and partial neck length sizing .

What are the issues around the length of the 243 neck? Does the 6mm Dasher also have these issues as its neck is even shorter? Do you think the WSM would be a better case if it had a longer neck?

Short necks mean less length to play with bullet seating of boat tailed bullets . Less natural alignment then longer necks .
Less potential grip for any given neck tension amount like say a .001 grip or .002 etc. than a longer neck .
It's not a huge issue and standard .243 shoots fairly well anyway but you can squeeze out some extra accuracy by tightening up the neck fit by adding a slight shoulder from partial neck sizing that never gets resized ever . Body die is required and a Lee collet die with a washer over the case on the shell holder or a Redding bushing neck die adjusted so it don't size all the way down . Skim neck turn gets the neck wall thickness better and assists even bullet release and smoother operation in bushing dies . It also adds up to more concentrically seated projectiles but you have to make sure neck tension is sufficient to hold projectiles enough so that chambering from a magazine will not push them out of line . Short necks generally need slightly higher neck tensions unless you are target shooting and feeding one at a time in a push feed action .
Same applies to any short neck cartridge but precision in hand loading and dies etc. has come a long way nowadays and that helps a lot . Short necks do have one advantage in as much as they don't need as much drag to size the neck which helps reduce brass drawing and elongation , that slows down neck hardening which can adversely affect precision accuracy .
Annealing is still a good idea after 5 to 7 shots as long as you do it correctly and don't soften the case body below the shoulder .

[bigrich]

Assuming you are talking M55's vs L461.
To say early Tikka's are better made than the same era Sako's is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.
Back in the day just about every pro shooter I knew ran a Tikka because they were just as good and cheaper.
For as long as Sako owned Tikka the Tikka has been their cheaper option.
Made with the same barrels etcetera but a cheaper action to produce.

yes the m55 ,early ,all steel tikka is the model i'm refering to . yeah , okay .the sako's are nicer finished, but the m55's i've handled are very well made

i'm starting to think that in terms of simplicity sticking with a push feed mod 70 winnie might be the go . the tikkas have a great trigger , but the model 70's can be very nice too. top loading a 70 when your on the run is pretty easy compared to reloading the tikkas precision fitting steel mag

i have spares for the winnies, and their easy to bed . another plus for them

oh decisions,decisions

[SCJ429]

243 would do the job. The short neck does have some potential issues that can be minimized using skim neck turning and partial neck length sizing .

What are the issues around the length of the 243 neck? Does the 6mm Dasher also have these issues as its neck is even shorter? Do you think the WSM would be a better case if it had a longer neck?

Short necks mean less length to play with bullet seating of boat tailed bullets . Less natural alignment then longer necks .
Less potential grip for any given neck tension amount like say a .001 grip or .002 etc. than a longer neck .
It's not a huge issue and standard .243 shoots fairly well anyway but you can squeeze out some extra accuracy by tightening up the neck fit by adding a slight shoulder from partial neck sizing that never gets resized ever . Body die is required and a Lee collet die with a washer over the case on the shell holder or a Redding bushing neck die adjusted so it don't size all the way down . Skim neck turn gets the neck wall thickness better and assists even bullet release and smoother operation in bushing dies . It also adds up to more concentrically seated projectiles but you have to make sure neck tension is sufficient to hold projectiles enough so that chambering from a magazine will not push them out of line . Short necks generally need slightly higher neck tensions unless you are target shooting and feeding one at a time in a push feed action .
Same applies to any short neck cartridge but precision in hand loading and dies etc. has come a long way nowadays and that helps a lot . Short necks do have one advantage in as much as they don't need as much drag to size the neck which helps reduce brass drawing and elongation , that slows down neck hardening which can adversely affect precision accuracy .
Annealing is still a good idea after 5 to 7 shots as long as you do it correctly and don't soften the case body below the shoulder .

I hear what you are saying but the size of the 243 neck will have no effect on its potential accuracy. Many case designs like the WSM are not using particularly long necks and can produce excellent accuracy. The PPC has a shorter neck than the 222 but it has completely replaced it in accuracy competition. Check out Stan Ware's 6mm BR wildcat with almost no neck.
. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... d-wolfpup/

[LawrenceA]

That wolfpup looks like the throat is used to provide alignment

[Blr243]

If the gap is beetwen 223 and 270 , then A new 243 Makes more sense ....broadside 243 with th right Bullet can bring down the biggest boar in a flash. My 243 has taken red and fallow, Himalayan thar, dingoes pigs cats and foxes I’m sure it could do goats Roos hares and rabbits if I sought them. Can’t really shoot those poor little rabbits and hares ...howa sell sporters and bull barrel versions cheap , stainless or blued in 243

[cqguy73]

243 with a 1 - 8 twist barrel. I use 58g V Max up to 100g in mine. Works a treat. Shoots everything. Including good size pigs.

[GQshayne]

I have two M55 Tikkas, one in .243. I have owned it since 1986. It is comparable to a similar vintage Sako in my opinion. In those days, they were in direct competition. Until recently I used it as a pig gun, and could not say how many pigs were taken with it over the decades.

In the early days 85gn Sierras were used, and then 87gn Hornady Interlocks and 90gn Speer Hot core. On average size pigs, heavy construction projectiles such as Partitions are too heavy in my experience, so the stuff listed above has worked better. I have shot some big pigs at 200m with it, and never had any reason to think the calibre was not suitable. Maybe if I was seeing a lot of pigs over 100kg then the Partitions or something similar would work better.

I have reloaded for it after my first batch of factory PMC ammo supplied me some cases. I also acquired some other cases being Sako and some Winchester etc. I still have many of those original cases, and never once have I had an issue reloading any. As a hunter (not a target shooter), I always FL resize them, and some of those old cases would have had a few reloads by now.

I tried to show you a pic of it, but the upload limit appears to have changed.

[bigrich]

I have two M55 Tikkas, one in .243. I have owned it since 1986. It is comparable to a similar vintage Sako in my opinion. In those days, they were in direct competition. Until recently I used it as a pig gun, and could not say how many pigs were taken with it over the decades.

In the early days 85gn Sierras were used, and then 87gn Hornady Interlocks and 90gn Speer Hot core. On average size pigs, heavy construction projectiles such as Partitions are too heavy in my experience, so the stuff listed above has worked better. I have shot some big pigs at 200m with it, and never had any reason to think the calibre was not suitable. Maybe if I was seeing a lot of pigs over 100kg then the Partitions or something similar would work better.

I have reloaded for it after my first batch of factory PMC ammo supplied me some cases. I also acquired some other cases being Sako and some Winchester etc. I still have many of those original cases, and never once have I had an issue reloading any. As a hunter (not a target shooter), I always FL resize them, and some of those old cases would have had a few reloads by now.

I tried to show you a pic of it, but the upload limit appears to have changed.

yeah, i've had lots of trouble trying to upload pics in the past as well . first hand knowledge of m55's is what i'm seeking. they have no funny quirks or matinence issues then ? they can't be toploaded with reloading the mag without removing it from the rifle ? i've read the floorplate/trigger gaurd assembly can be fiddly if disassembled . have you played with this ?

[LawrenceA]

Assuming you are talking M55's vs L461.
To say early Tikka's are better made than the same era Sako's is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.
Back in the day just about every pro shooter I knew ran a Tikka because they were just as good and cheaper.
For as long as Sako owned Tikka the Tikka has been their cheaper option.
Made with the same barrels etcetera but a cheaper action to produce.

yes the m55 ,early ,all steel tikka is the model i'm refering to . yeah , okay .the sako's are nicer finished, but the m55's i've handled are very well made

i'm starting to think that in terms of simplicity sticking with a push feed mod 70 winnie might be the go . the tikkas have a great trigger , but the model 70's can be very nice too. top loading a 70 when your on the run is pretty easy compared to reloading the tikkas precision fitting steel mag

i have spares for the winnies, and their easy to bed . another plus for them

oh decisions,decisions

With all that go the Winnie. Then you pretty well have a gun your used to.

[straightshooter]

Anybody for a 25-06.
Its a caliber that doesn't talked about much but is far more common than one may think.

[JohnV]

243 would do the job. The short neck does have some potential issues that can be minimized using skim neck turning and partial neck length sizing .

What are the issues around the length of the 243 neck? Does the 6mm Dasher also have these issues as its neck is even shorter? Do you think the WSM would be a better case if it had a longer neck?

Short necks mean less length to play with bullet seating of boat tailed bullets . Less natural alignment then longer necks .
Less potential grip for any given neck tension amount like say a .001 grip or .002 etc. than a longer neck .
It's not a huge issue and standard .243 shoots fairly well anyway but you can squeeze out some extra accuracy by tightening up the neck fit by adding a slight shoulder from partial neck sizing that never gets resized ever . Body die is required and a Lee collet die with a washer over the case on the shell holder or a Redding bushing neck die adjusted so it don't size all the way down . Skim neck turn gets the neck wall thickness better and assists even bullet release and smoother operation in bushing dies . It also adds up to more concentrically seated projectiles but you have to make sure neck tension is sufficient to hold projectiles enough so that chambering from a magazine will not push them out of line . Short necks generally need slightly higher neck tensions unless you are target shooting and feeding one at a time in a push feed action .
Same applies to any short neck cartridge but precision in hand loading and dies etc. has come a long way nowadays and that helps a lot . Short necks do have one advantage in as much as they don't need as much drag to size the neck which helps reduce brass drawing and elongation , that slows down neck hardening which can adversely affect precision accuracy .
Annealing is still a good idea after 5 to 7 shots as long as you do it correctly and don't soften the case body below the shoulder .

I hear what you are saying but the size of the 243 neck will have no effect on its potential accuracy. Many case designs like the WSM are not using particularly long necks and can produce excellent accuracy. The PPC has a shorter neck than the 222 but it has completely replaced it in accuracy competition. Check out Stan Ware's 6mm BR wildcat with almost no neck.
. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... d-wolfpup/

If the 222 had the same match chambers and tight necks in the same high end BR rifles it would shoot just as good as a PPC except for wind which the 6mm bullet is better . Short necks have less side effects now because of improvements in precision techniques that is available now which I said previously . A big sloppy factory chamber can't be compared to a tight neck match chamber . Hard to prove any effect but the partial neck sizing does make it shoot better so something is being made better .

[bigrich]

Anybody for a 25-06.
Its a caliber that doesn't talked about much but is far more common than one may think.

25-06 is something I had considered, as I have a m17 Eddystone. It is a very flat shooter, but burns a lot of powder to do it .
243 is more efficient in that regard

[bigrich]

I had also considered the 6 mm rem, which when you look at it’s ballistics and technicall specs is very impressive.
And it has the long neck that is common to 222, 30-06, ect

[Skinna]

Well if youre having a barrel chambered for this & still bandying around different cartridges with 25-06 in the mix, then why not seriously take the 257 Roberts into the equation.??

Also, while the 243 will always win in any "which is more versatile out of 243 & 22-250", there is still a lot of good about the 22-250 being left out here.

You started out considering the 223AI, so why not the 22-250 AI...?
The 22-250 is more than capable of taking small to medium animals like goats & dogs etc., which are both pretty thin skinned animals. Admittedly pigs are a different matter, but those who know what they are doing still hunt small to medium pigs with a 223.
If you can shoot, you'll have no problems in taking goats for the table easily out at 300 with the 22-250, & dogs will tip over probably just, as if not easier.

And you talk about inbetween your 222 & 270...so what happened to your 6.5x55 you always said is your go-to hunt gun...? If you still have that a 22-250 AI would be a better gap filler in my opinion, unless you just want a short action 6mm cartridge
The 22-250 is just a smidge under the 243 in every respect, volume (noise), case capacity & bullet flinging weight, variety of bullet availability & cheap prices, & for what they are, they hit with some magnificent authority...so choose an appropriate twist & bullets for its purposes & you wont be disappointed.
But its most likely you wont be disappointed with your 243 either by the sounds of it.

[JohnV]

I had also considered the 6 mm rem, which when you look at it’s ballistics and technicall specs is very impressive.
And it has the long neck that is common to 222, 30-06, ect

6mm Remington was the better cartridge in some ways but it died as a result of Winchester paying gun writers to push the .243 hard at the consumer . Remington never responded in any way that properly countered that .
For how I reload I would prefer the 6 mm Rem. over a .243W but once a certain product is easy to come by it's hard to justify using something that is hard to buy . However with a bit of tweaking the 243 can be made to shoot well with full velocity loads in a good accurate gun that is .