Good 22LR ammo

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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by bladeracer » 13 Jul 2022, 2:32 pm

Wyliecoyote wrote:Ammo used was Eley Black.


What is Eley Black?
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by No1_49er » 13 Jul 2022, 2:54 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Wyliecoyote wrote:Ammo used was Eley Black.


What is Eley Black?

It's Eley Match. Comes in a black labeled box, so commonly referred to as Eley Black
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by bladeracer » 13 Jul 2022, 4:00 pm

No1_49er wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Wyliecoyote wrote:Ammo used was Eley Black.


What is Eley Black?

It's Eley Match. Comes in a black labeled box, so commonly referred to as Eley Black


Cool, Eley Edge is also a black box - and shoots better for me than Match.
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by Wyliecoyote » 13 Jul 2022, 9:14 pm

Eley Edge was discontinued around 2019 due to high cost for what it was, low sales and underperformance. Team is said to be its replacement.
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by bladeracer » 13 Jul 2022, 9:35 pm

Wyliecoyote wrote:Eley Edge was discontinued around 2019 due to high cost for what it was, low sales and underperformance. Team is said to be its replacement.


Yep, I was told it was originally Team, rebranded as Edge, and is now back to being Team.
I have some Team for testing to see if that seems correct - but I still have about 2400rds of Edge.
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by cz515 » 14 Jul 2022, 8:41 am

Rc etc were taking 100m or 100y groups not 50yards
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by bladeracer » 14 Jul 2022, 10:46 am

cz515 wrote:Rc etc were taking 100m or 100y groups not 50yards


Not sure who you are responding to, but I test first at 50m because some ammo just won't group at 100m. Anything that shows promise then gets tested at 100m.
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by Lazarus » 15 Jul 2022, 6:27 pm

For those wondering why the US made Power Points are shyte compared to those that were made here.

I'm down to the last 25 from Oz so I bought a pack of the new stuff.
I weighed the 25 old ones from Oz
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Then 25 at random from the new
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Says enough for me.
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by Lazarus » 16 Jul 2022, 12:25 pm

Further to the above, did a bit of testing this morning.

I will not be using the US Power Points on critters I think.

20220716_120025_50.jpg
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The pic below is of 3 random from Oz on the left and 3 from US on the right, I don't know what the crusty looking snot on the Yankee ones is, but it's very inconsistent, some hollow point cavities are full of it and some are only half full or empty.
Add this to the wild variations in weight and they're 'king useless.

I'm going to do a "Karen" today and email the results to Winchester.
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by Oldbloke » 16 Jul 2022, 1:23 pm

"I'm going to do a "Karen" today and email the results to Winchester".

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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by bladeracer » 16 Jul 2022, 4:51 pm

That is an astonishing difference if the ammo is claimed to be the same stuff.

Lazarus wrote:Further to the above, did a bit of testing this morning.

I will not be using the US Power Points on critters I think.

20220716_120025_50.jpg


The pic below is of 3 random from Oz on the left and 3 from US on the right, I don't know what the crusty looking snot on the Yankee ones is, but it's very inconsistent, some hollow point cavities are full of it and some are only half full or empty.
Add this to the wild variations in weight and they're 'king useless.

I'm going to do a "Karen" today and email the results to Winchester.
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by Lazarus » 16 Jul 2022, 6:27 pm

bladeracer wrote:That is an astonishing difference if the ammo is claimed to be the same stuff.


A big disappointment indeed.
Sellier and Bellot are far superior in HV and subsonic, I'll use up these new ones as fowlers.

A slight digression, how are you going to trim the Aguila telephone poles evenly?
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by bladeracer » 16 Jul 2022, 7:37 pm

Lazarus wrote:
bladeracer wrote:That is an astonishing difference if the ammo is claimed to be the same stuff.


A big disappointment indeed.
Sellier and Bellot are far superior in HV and subsonic, I'll use up these new ones as fowlers.

A slight digression, how are you going to trim the Aguila telephone poles evenly?


Hadn't thought about it yet, probably just file them to a consistent length but I guess I could try mounting them in the lathe chuck and use a drill bit - give them a bit of a hollow-point at the same time :-)
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by Lazarus » 18 Jul 2022, 11:04 am

Winchester AU's response was quick but disappointingly just what I expected.

Wow, too bad about that, we'll pass it on.

Further:

This morning in the spirit of experimental proprietary, and my own OCD, I had to give them the best chance.
I picked out 5 of the same weight, with as close as possible(they vary widely) to the same size and shape HP, cleaned the snot off them with some turps, rag and a toothpick and with the uncleaned previously fired acting as my control batch, fired 5 of them at 50m.

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Obviously not the snot then, just overall shyte.
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by solarpak » 18 Jul 2022, 9:25 pm

The new Winchester USA rimfire ammo - to be frank very disappointing.
I have a small stash of the Aus product (Powerpoints, Subsonics etc.....) and when comparing it too the new USA stuff ...shyte is not the work.......MEGA SHYTE! more like it.
Whats the deal with the snot in the hollow-point cavities - not only in the new Powerpoint and Subsonics but also Hypervelocity and Superspeeds (look like they are loaded with the same slug)

My Weihrauch HW66 is fed with the Winchester (Aus) Subsonics which it shoots very well on the rabbits - but the equivalent Powerpoints (Aus) don't seem to shoot in that rifle. All other ammo i have tested , including SK, Eley, Lapua shoots sublimely.......thats what you pay for !!

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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by Lazarus » 19 Jul 2022, 10:17 am

@solarpak

I found the same when looking for the "right" ammo for my new LA101.

One I heard of but can't find was Remington Thunderbolt but after trying their subs, didn't bother.
Most brands were OK, Sellier was very good, Lapua like a laser and every Winchester variety were very poor in accuracy, build and consistency.

Time for ADI to step up.
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by bladeracer » 19 Jul 2022, 2:57 pm

Lazarus wrote:@solarpak

I found the same when looking for the "right" ammo for my new LA101.

One I heard of but can't find was Remington Thunderbolt but after trying their subs, didn't bother.
Most brands were OK, Sellier was very good, Lapua like a laser and every Winchester variety were very poor in accuracy, build and consistency.

Time for ADI to step up.


That reminds me, I found a brick of Thunderbolt buried in with my Cyclones last month. I don't believe I've ever actually tested them yet - if I have I don't have a record of it.

I would like to see ADI producing rimfire ammo but I can't see it happening.
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by Lazarus » 19 Jul 2022, 4:16 pm

@Bladeracer
If you do get to test them please share the result, I've been doing some reading on them and they have a pretty low rep in the US

On ADI, agree, just wishful thinking.
Big difference between loading up components they already make for Buff river .223 , probably not enough local base to support the investment in a rimfire line.
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by Lazarus » 20 Jul 2022, 9:32 am

Has anyone tried these?

WINCHESTER SILVERTIP SEGMENTING 22LR 37GR HP

W22LRST.tag_.0.png
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Being Winchester their accuracy is no doubt as pedestrian as all the rest but I like the idea of a segmenting subsonic
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by bladeracer » 20 Jul 2022, 4:31 pm

Lazarus wrote:Has anyone tried these?

WINCHESTER SILVERTIP SEGMENTING 22LR 37GR HP

W22LRST.tag_.0.png


Being Winchester their accuracy is no doubt as pedestrian as all the rest but I like the idea of a segmenting subsonic


I haven't seen that one anywhere, is it available in Australia?

CCI Quiet 710fps comes in RN, HP and Segmented HP. The Segmented HP is double the price of the two standard rounds.
The Mini-Mag also has an option with a 40gn Segmented bullet, but is 1235fps, and the Quick-Shok is a segmented HP version of the Stinger at 1640fps.
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by Lazarus » 20 Jul 2022, 5:09 pm

@Bladeracer

It's available in Sydney shops, but Winchester says on it's page that its load is optimised for short barrels and PD.

Thanks for that list, I'm going to try to hunt some down.
The nearest gun shop has a range limited by the customer base so it might be a road trip.
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by bladeracer » 20 Jul 2022, 5:29 pm

Lazarus wrote:@Bladeracer

It's available in Sydney shops, but Winchester says on it's page that its load is optimised for short barrels and PD.

Thanks for that list, I'm going to try to hunt some down.
The nearest gun shop has a range limited by the customer base so it might be a road trip.


I Googled it and found Paul Harrell tested it last year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4Qdw92KAzQ

Our neighbour across the road has bought himself a helicopter, parks it by the house. It must make trips pretty quick, but I wouldn't want to be paying for the fuel :-)
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by Lazarus » 20 Jul 2022, 6:06 pm

Thanks, Ill watch that.

That would be nice, hope you're neighbour's egg beater isn't an R34, fuel might not be the biggest worry.
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by bladeracer » 20 Jul 2022, 6:39 pm

Lazarus wrote:Thanks, Ill watch that.

That would be nice, hope you're neighbour's egg beater isn't an R34, fuel might not be the biggest worry.


PH basically didn't find any value in the Silver Tips compared to the Mini-Mag, Yellow Jacket and Stinger. It is optimised for pistol barrels but it still made decent velocity in his 10/22. It went supersonic in the 10/22 though so it won't be subsonic in a rifle.

No idea what it is but I Googled chopper pics and it looks similar to the Robinson R44, but I'm mainly looking at it from underneath as he flies over the house. I'll find out what it is. Horrendously loud it is :-)
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by Lazarus » 21 Jul 2022, 6:36 pm

I bought 2 boxes of Sellier and Bellot HV today

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Perhaps I should send these to Winchester
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jul 2022, 8:52 pm

Lazarus wrote:I bought 2 boxes of Sellier and Bellot HV today

20220721_181321.jpg


20220721_183223.jpg


Perhaps I should send these to Winchester


I weight batched a bunch of different ammo and saw no measurable difference in them on the target - I don't think the weight of the cartridge is of much relevance. I think weight is the basis of much of the manufacturers' quality control so they have the weights very much in hand. I have seen measurable difference with _some_ ammo after rim-thickness batching (I measured about 12,000rds two years ago including S&B), but it's very time consuming, and still falls well short of better ammunition. With the recent shortages in supply, a lot of people had to shoot whatever they could get, and it may have been of benefit to rim-thickness batch their ammo to get a little more consistency. I think you're better off though just testing every type of ammo you can get, and just buy a case or two of whatever you find shoots most accurately in the firearm. All the stuff you bought for testing that turned out less than optimal is still great for mass plinking episodes when family and friends come out.
https://enoughgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13423

I think the biggest restriction on accuracy with .22LR ammo is the fact that it uses a cast bullet with a heel inside the case. Guys in the US are using primed standard .22LR brass shooting machined copper bullets in ELR competition with excellent results, so I don't believe the priming, or the case, is a significant issue. .22LR cast bullet weights are very consistent also. But it's very difficult to use soft cast bullets in bulk ammo without them being damaged to some degree during the automated process. Likewise, sitting the heel into the case, then crimping the case around it detracts from a consistent shape - and the consistency of the tail of the bullet has a large role in accuracy. Trying to get a consistent aerodynamic point to a cast bullet is also difficult. The result is .22LR bullets with very low ballistic coefficients of drag - in the region of .090 to about .140 (40gn VMax is .200 for example) - so you have to expect accuracy to suffer as ranges increase. I have never thought to test .22LR ammo at 10m, but perhaps I might find excellent results at such a close range - just not very practical in reality.

A die that bumps the diameter of the bullet up to a consistent diameter, while also swaging all the bullets to a very similar shape is likely the best way to improve your ammunition. But I still think it's better to just find the best in the firearm and buy lots of it.
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by Boundry Rider » 21 Jul 2022, 9:01 pm

I made a large improvement in flier reduction on cheaper ammo by indexing my ammo in the magazine (making sure the powder is sitting the lower of the case before firing) and reforming my firing pin imprint.
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by Boundry Rider » 13 Aug 2022, 9:39 am

Sent an email to Olin complaining about these USA manufactured Winsub 40g. This pic old v new. Got this response:

"Thank you for the e-mail.

 

I spoke with you on the phone and also the customer service officer Arch.

 

As we mentioned the Australian Manufactured Ammunition is no longer in stock.

The thin wax coating in the hollow point should not cause any issue with expansion or performance of the cartridge.

 

This wax will dissipate upon impact, it will also start to melt when the ammunition is fired.

 

Regards"
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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by solarpak » 15 Aug 2022, 9:41 pm

Pretty disappointing response from Winchester Australia- maybe show them the groups of the old Aussie mad stuff and the new stuff.....

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Re: Good 22LR ammo

Post by Boundry Rider » 16 Aug 2022, 8:29 am

60Y shooting from the car window in the rain. I like to test in proper field conditions lol.
Not as much difference in grouping as I expected.
The old was from cold barrel, and when swapping to the USA pack I didn't allow fouling in the new wax (obviously different wax on the USA ammo) which I normally allow 15 shots for wheb swapping ammo types on .22LR.
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