Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Calibres, cartridges, ballistics tables and ammunition information.

Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by Die Judicii » 26 Mar 2021, 8:38 pm

To the ballistics minded members,

Last night I shot another Dingo cross dog, that was extremely close in and I mean CLOSE.
It was only 20 meters out, and I suspect it was trying to sneak around behind the ute.
I had the cross hairs slightly off the center line frontal chest on the dogs left hand side as I fired.

Using PPU PSP's in .223

It fell forward,, and then started howling like a banshee and started running to my right.
As I started to follow through for a second shot,,,,,,, everything went black.
The damm power cord from the battery pack had got hooked on the other bean bag and got pulled out.
(lesson learnt,,, from now on I'm gonna tape it in place)

By the time I got everything back in place and looking,, I could find no trace of the dog, in the under brush or down in the many hollows.

I'm thinking that being at such close range the projectile managed to pass clean through without any expansion, like a red hot needle.

Question is,,,,,,,,,,,,, what are the thoughts on filing the soft lead tip off these projectiles ???

Will it make for a more explosive impact ?
Will it make the projectile unstable and therefore wildly inaccurate ?
I do not fear death itself... Only its inopportune timing!
I've come to realize that,,,,, the two most loving, loyal, and trustworthy females in my entire life were both canines.
User avatar
Die Judicii
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3706
Queensland

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by Oldbloke » 26 Mar 2021, 9:22 pm

Gee, your doing ok.

I've heard of plenty doing it yonks ago with FMJs
Should work if your just taking a small amount off the tip.
But TBH I doubt that was the problem.
I'm assuming 55gr. More likely shot placement mate.

Go back if shot was good it was running dead.

Does this look like the ammo?

6e4284153f5d98a46beadc7d60400bc648246fda.jpg
6e4284153f5d98a46beadc7d60400bc648246fda.jpg (333.71 KiB) Viewed 5744 times
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by Oldbloke » 26 Mar 2021, 9:28 pm

Just to add. Last year I shot a fox at 165 yards with a 30-06, 180gr SP. About 2600fps.

Face on in the chest. Looking at what was left bullet obviously mushroomed. So 55gr @ about 3000fps no probs
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by on_one_wheel » 26 Mar 2021, 9:31 pm

I'm my experience the projectile seems that its most "explosive" at close range, it's travelling at it's highest speed and hitting as hard as it possibly can for your given load.

I find within 50m using my 55g vmax .223 loads roos heads literally explode, beyond 100 the damage is noticeably reduced.

The only time I had issues with projectiles pencilling through was with heavy jacket 100g .243 pills. I stopped using those on roos after pencilling through a roos frontal lobe, the poor bugger stood there lobotomised staring into space until the next shot.
Gun control requires concentration and a steady hand
User avatar
on_one_wheel
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3561
South Australia

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by Blr243 » 26 Mar 2021, 9:41 pm

I think just leave your ammo alone. It’s already grouping very well ..... On rare occasions we get a runner when we thought all was good ...tipping mil ammo was something I tried briefly when a lot younger and when bulk mil ammo was getting around cheap ...inconsistent tipping might make a shot be a long way off at 150 metres .......it’s a natural human thinking process to re evaluate a situation when we have a negative incident
Blr243
Brigadier
Brigadier
 
Posts: 4479
Queensland

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by Blr243 » 26 Mar 2021, 9:44 pm

Ditto what one wheel said about high speeds close up
Blr243
Brigadier
Brigadier
 
Posts: 4479
Queensland

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by on_one_wheel » 26 Mar 2021, 10:00 pm

If ya keen to read up on some in depth info on ballistics, grab a copy of Applied Ballistics for Longer Range Shooting. Its an awesome read, there's a whole 26 page chapter on Lethality full of formulas that I won't be dedicating to memory .... none the less it's extremely informative.
20210326_222846.jpg
From Applied Ballistics
20210326_222846.jpg (110.75 KiB) Viewed 5724 times
Gun control requires concentration and a steady hand
User avatar
on_one_wheel
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3561
South Australia

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by Ziege » 27 Mar 2021, 2:49 am

or just buy hollow points?

I have been using the Nosler Varmaggeddon 55gn hollow points lately in my 223 and they basically leave shredded pelts behind, they expand so well its just a mangled bloodied mess left behind, certainly no cat or fox that I have shot has got back up and taken off...
Last edited by Ziege on 27 Mar 2021, 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ziege
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 964
Western Australia

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by Ziege » 27 Mar 2021, 2:53 am

on_one_wheel wrote:I'm my experience the projectile seems that its most "explosive" at close range, it's travelling at it's highest speed and hitting as hard as it possibly can for your given load.

I find within 50m using my 55g vmax .223 loads roos heads literally explode, beyond 100 the damage is noticeably reduced.

The only time I had issues with projectiles pencilling through was with heavy jacket 100g .243 pills. I stopped using those on roos after pencilling through a roos frontal lobe, the poor bugger stood there lobotomised staring into space until the next shot.




bingo, as OOW says, Ive has same issue on foxes with the 270 (I never use the 223 in canola stubble). Nosler partitions work great on bigger animals and out at longer distances with mushrooming and providing hydrostatic shock, but close up (under 250m) on foxes they just poke holes through them only ever had a few blow them in half like soft points do but that was where the bullet was connecting with more than just a couple ribs etc.
Ziege
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 964
Western Australia

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by Die Judicii » 27 Mar 2021, 3:18 am

100_5595 (2).JPG
100_5595 (2).JPG (711.79 KiB) Viewed 5710 times
Yeah, thanks fellas for ye thoughts and comments etc.
OB,,,, yep they are the little critters I'm using.
Come to think of it, if you look closely at just about any psp projectiles, they are very inconsistent, partially due to the "soft" lead tip,,,
They aren't very precise by any means,, also easily damaged in transit/handling etc.
Surely one could file off the "sometimes ragged" tips more consistently and evenly ???

I've got 600 of these little mothers to use up before going back to HP's or ballistic tipped.

The dog itself in question had killed a ewe at 9 am the day before, and I planted some lead in it at 4-35 am the next morning.
The property owner spent some time looking for it, but the terrain is pretty rugged, and he drew a blank.

This same scenario happened before,,, about two years ago when I planted this one,,, last of five in one night (see pic)
Come daylight,,,, couldn't find it in the undergrowth,,,, but the owners nose told him where it was in 3 days time (height of summer)
I do not fear death itself... Only its inopportune timing!
I've come to realize that,,,,, the two most loving, loyal, and trustworthy females in my entire life were both canines.
User avatar
Die Judicii
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3706
Queensland

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by SCJ429 » 27 Mar 2021, 8:33 am

I am with Ziege, get a frangible bullet like a Sierra Blitz King, Hornady Vmax or Speer TNT. I use these bullets in a 204, 223 and 22/250. The main issue I face is that I have to head shoot everything or the damage they do with chest shots is so great that there is nothing worth picking up.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3207
New South Wales

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by JohnV » 27 Mar 2021, 8:51 am

Any increase in the frontal meplat diameter will make it expand faster . For short range shooting it won't affect much else , other than some actions may not feed as well . However as the meplat gets larger the BC gets lower so at longer ranges it will loose velocity more and shoot lower but grouping could be just as good depending on how square and accurate the trimming job is . I have used hundreds of Military FMJ's with the meplat cut back and for average hunting of pigs in the scrub they worked ok . Dogs shot high through the lungs with a strong construction bullet can carry the hit a fair way before they drop . Fast expanding bullets are good on dogs as they are not hard to penetrate initially .
JohnV
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1161
Other

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by Ziege » 27 Mar 2021, 10:45 pm

SCJ429 wrote:I am with Ziege, get a frangible bullet like a Sierra Blitz King, Hornady Vmax or Speer TNT. I use these bullets in a 204, 223 and 22/250. The main issue I face is that I have to head shoot everything or the damage they do with chest shots is so great that there is nothing worth picking up.



aint that the truth, I decimated a big fat adult male fox with a 55gn nosler hp from 260m ish, and it did more damage than the 270 with an SST 130gn does at 5om. the sheer transfer of energy is just impressive to say the very least.
Ziege
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 964
Western Australia

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by Skinna » 28 Mar 2021, 12:07 pm

SCJ429 wrote:I am with Ziege, get a frangible bullet like a Sierra Blitz King, Hornady Vmax or Speer TNT. I use these bullets in a 204, 223 and 22/250. The main issue I face is that I have to head shoot everything or the damage they do with chest shots is so great that there is nothing worth picking up.


Im curious to know why youre picking them up...do you eat foxes...?
Skinna
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 240
South Australia

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by Skinna » 28 Mar 2021, 12:39 pm

As has been said or implied above, expansion &/or fragmentation/the energy released on impact, is directly related to the velocity, so in theory you shouldnt need to do anything to any part of a bullet to get more expansion at close range.

Personally, id be looking at a different method of shooting when/if that close...it might be worth while considering a different alternative to close shots, like if you are sitting stationary in the same place for ambush style culling, what about having a coach gun (short double barreled 12G) or light weight short barreled shotty with a couple of full loads of 00SG, or one barrel with 00SG & another with BB's, where the shotgun has a decent wide light on it--i have a couple of the Olights & bought the diffuser for them for when i get the hankering for some warm summer walkabout fun on bunny infested areas--the diffuser is very effective & lights up a very wide area & it would have been great for your scenario.

I shoot a good few foxes, & ill admit to any real close moving shots i get with the 204 (under 20ish metres) more often than not end up in a wounded animal--or one that needs to be finished off, whereas im well capable of hitting them on the trot out to 200 yds & dropping them clean with that one shot.
In fact now im thinking of it, over the last 3 or so years, every fox ive hit on the move with the 204 (even just walking toward me but they are mostly trotting) closer than 20 metres has required me to finish it off, & likewise, every one ive hit out to 200 on the move has been well & truely expired with the one clean shot by the time i get to it.
My theory is this...along with the added anxiety (buck fever) of one being so close--often suddenly bought on by the shock of it motoring in so dam quick--, there is also scope settings like magnification is often up at 10 or 12X, maybe even more if i forget to adjust it from the previous shot being a long one, parallax etc etc that all contribute to poor shot placement, there is also the fact that the bullets are so dam frangible at that velocity there is just zero penetration & surface wounding/mutilation is all thats achieved.

Id respectfully suggest that the shot placement wasnt great on the dog & it was hit in a part of the body that didnt ground it.
Id suggest to leave the bullets alone & look at the more obvious factors...its often unbelievable, even to ourselves that we could miss such close shots, but im a winner when it comes to missing foxes up close...it really is very easy to do, & the good shooters of us admit it, learn from it & adapt so it doesnt happen again.
:drinks:
Skinna
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 240
South Australia

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by JohnV » 28 Mar 2021, 5:08 pm

It's not just related to velocity . Bullet construction and design as well as impact hardness also plays a part .
JohnV
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1161
Other

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by SCJ429 » 28 Mar 2021, 6:36 pm

Skinna wrote:
SCJ429 wrote:I am with Ziege, get a frangible bullet like a Sierra Blitz King, Hornady Vmax or Speer TNT. I use these bullets in a 204, 223 and 22/250. The main issue I face is that I have to head shoot everything or the damage they do with chest shots is so great that there is nothing worth picking up.


Im curious to know why youre picking them up...do you eat foxes...?

I skin the foxes I shoot, I would have thought a bloke with a handle of "Skinna" would have thought of that.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3207
New South Wales

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by Bello » 28 Mar 2021, 7:05 pm

SCJ429 wrote:I am with Ziege, get a frangible bullet like a Sierra Blitz King, Hornady Vmax or Speer TNT. I use these bullets in a 204, 223 and 22/250. The main issue I face is that I have to head shoot everything or the damage they do with chest shots is so great that there is nothing worth picking up.


I agree with this quote from SCJ429
I find the V-max do a great job within 200 meters. The Sierra blitz king are just as good.
I have used PSP (pointed soft point) on grass hoppers and on occasions they have shot straight through, sometimes requiring follow up shots.
I use the V-max mostly now in my 223 and 22-250 with no problems. The carnage the V-max cause in the chest of a fox or kangaroo, drops them on the spot. I haven’t lost a Fox since using them.
My 2c
User avatar
Bello
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 313
New South Wales

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by animalpest » 28 Mar 2021, 9:23 pm

Had a wild dog that was shot from 60-70m away with .223 and 55gn Sierra bullet. The dog ran off. We found it the next day and it had ran 170m before piling up. It was a perfect heart shot, with a massive exit hole.

Sometimes even perfect bullet placement with good terminal performance of the bullet can lead you to think something was wrong when it hasn't.
Professional shooter and trapper
Trainer and consultant
animalpest
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1025
Western Australia

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by Skinna » 28 Mar 2021, 10:47 pm

SCJ429 wrote:
Skinna wrote:
SCJ429 wrote:I am with Ziege, get a frangible bullet like a Sierra Blitz King, Hornady Vmax or Speer TNT. I use these bullets in a 204, 223 and 22/250. The main issue I face is that I have to head shoot everything or the damage they do with chest shots is so great that there is nothing worth picking up.


Im curious to know why youre picking them up...do you eat foxes...?

I skin the foxes I shoot, I would have thought a bloke with a handle of "Skinna" would have thought of that.


I did think of that, but i was just being silly. :)
:unknown:
But funny you mention my 'handle'...it was meant to be "Skinna-Fox", but i forgot to add the last bit when i re-joined.
I skin them out too, but i use 32's for that reason.
The fact you use 40's from memory (or just to get ahead of you possibly quoting semantics--39's) i wouldnt have thought you'd skin them out with the damage they do.
Im not sure what sort of range your shooting them at, but they still fall over with 32's at any range my lighting systems can effectively reach out to...that being 300 yds-ish, depending on terrain, conditions & my elevation,
Skinna
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 240
South Australia

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by Ziege » 28 Mar 2021, 10:54 pm

Skinna wrote:
SCJ429 wrote:I am with Ziege, get a frangible bullet like a Sierra Blitz King, Hornady Vmax or Speer TNT. I use these bullets in a 204, 223 and 22/250. The main issue I face is that I have to head shoot everything or the damage they do with chest shots is so great that there is nothing worth picking up.


Im curious to know why youre picking them up...do you eat foxes...?



skins
Ziege
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 964
Western Australia

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by Die Judicii » 28 Mar 2021, 11:05 pm

animalpest wrote:Had a wild dog that was shot from 60-70m away with .223 and 55gn Sierra bullet. The dog ran off. We found it the next day and it had ran 170m before piling up. It was a perfect heart shot, with a massive exit hole.

Sometimes even perfect bullet placement with good terminal performance of the bullet can lead you to think something was wrong when it hasn't.


Tend to agree with what your sayin,,,, I had the same experience a week prior to this dog, with a large boar.
Same rifle/caliber,,,, big boar,,,,, heart shot, (single)
Said boar ran approx 85 meters in a horse shoe pattern,, stopped, jumped 4 times as if on a trampoline,, then fell over and never moved again.

:thumbsup: :drinks:
I do not fear death itself... Only its inopportune timing!
I've come to realize that,,,,, the two most loving, loyal, and trustworthy females in my entire life were both canines.
User avatar
Die Judicii
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3706
Queensland

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by Ziege » 28 Mar 2021, 11:40 pm

Die Judicii wrote:
animalpest wrote:Had a wild dog that was shot from 60-70m away with .223 and 55gn Sierra bullet. The dog ran off. We found it the next day and it had ran 170m before piling up. It was a perfect heart shot, with a massive exit hole.

Sometimes even perfect bullet placement with good terminal performance of the bullet can lead you to think something was wrong when it hasn't.


Tend to agree with what your sayin,,,, I had the same experience a week prior to this dog, with a large boar.
Same rifle/caliber,,,, big boar,,,,, heart shot, (single)
Said boar ran approx 85 meters in a horse shoe pattern,, stopped, jumped 4 times as if on a trampoline,, then fell over and never moved again.

:thumbsup: :drinks:



Yeah those shots happen, but doesn't mean someone has to step it up to a 338 to shoot dogs with just cos one varmint round didn't do it instantly one time.

blokes been knocking over coyotes in USA with .17 for ages now, hardly a problem in sight. 55gn from 222 or up is plenty of stopping power.
Ziege
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 964
Western Australia

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by JohnV » 09 Jul 2021, 8:18 pm

Try the Sierra 55 grain HPBT it works better than a soft nose .
JohnV
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1161
Other

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by animalpest » 09 Jul 2021, 8:37 pm

On another occasion a dog was standing side on at 20m. Chest shot it with a 25/06 with 75gr V-Max. Blew all it's ribs off so you could see inside. Nothing damaged in there! Too close and bullet didn't penetrate.
Professional shooter and trapper
Trainer and consultant
animalpest
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1025
Western Australia

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by Blr243 » 09 Jul 2021, 8:55 pm

That’s a serious surface blow up .....I used a 22 250 For the first time last December. I was useing 50 grain v max at 3800 FPS ....I just got the vibe I was getting too much surface explosion in comparison to the 87 v max in my 243 I usually use for years with no problems
Blr243
Brigadier
Brigadier
 
Posts: 4479
Queensland

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by bigrich » 10 Jul 2021, 12:13 pm

animalpest wrote:Had a wild dog that was shot from 60-70m away with .223 and 55gn Sierra bullet. The dog ran off. We found it the next day and it had ran 170m before piling up. It was a perfect heart shot, with a massive exit hole.

Sometimes even perfect bullet placement with good terminal performance of the bullet can lead you to think something was wrong when it hasn't.


I agree with this . And as others have said, try vmax

Over 30 years ago when Swede mausers were new on our market I used to put a flat point on military ammo as the only sporting ammo was super expensive, with a flat point 4mm wide the military ammunition used to mushroom really nice
User avatar
bigrich
Brigadier
Brigadier
 
Posts: 4483
Queensland

Re: Thoughts on "tipping" projectiles ?

Post by Oldbloke » 14 Jul 2021, 5:20 pm

I did some last week to some squib loads for my 223. The Stanley knife was much easier than using a file. (reduced them by 1 gr) I did it so that the squibs were easy to identify. (A variation of a bigpete idea) Figure since they are moving a bit slower it will help expansion as well.

Tipped squibs.jpeg
Tipped squibs.jpeg (219.3 KiB) Viewed 4584 times
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria


Back to top
 
Return to Calibres, cartridges and ballistics