Trajectory of different projectile weights

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Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by disco stu » 22 May 2021, 9:28 pm

I've just been mulling things over in my mind a bit recently, and I'll get to my reasoning after the question itself.

If you wanted to keep a somewhat similar trajectory between light and heavy projectiles in the same rifle, as in so sighting is close enough between the 2 for hunting, would keeping velocity the same be enough for ranges out to say 150m? I know lighter will lose velocity faster etc etc though.

I've just been pondering the viability of loading my own factory style hunting ammo. I've avoided it before now because of cost of equipment and what you read about load development etc etc. I'm not shooting target comps, just trying to put meat on the table and I figure I could just do a factory type load and be in the exact same position I am right now, and seeing I'm not shooting heaps of rounds then the lee classic hand loader would probably suit me just fine for investment and space it will take up.

I then had the idea of doing some very light projectiles for rabbits etc out of the 308. Can't find projectiles as light as what I would like, and sabot seems to be a no go from what I can tell, so it looks like 110gn is the lightest I can go. Anyway, I then pondered the sighting difference against 150-180 type weights, and thinking on the physics side of things.

Theoretically, if all else is equal then at the same velocity I am picturing that a 180 gn and a 110gn would follow the exact same trajectory, seeing acceleration due to gravity is constant between different masses. What I'm wondering is how well does this work in reality, or what ranges could you expect close enough trajectory for hunting type accuracy?

Cheers in advance

Stu
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by No1_49er » 22 May 2021, 9:38 pm

You haven't factored in the fact that the two projectiles can not be the same external dimensions and will therefore have different ballistic coefficients. Given that the diameter of the two is the same, then the length must be different, the 180gn being the longer.
The trajectories will not be the same.
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by LawrenceA » 22 May 2021, 9:45 pm

No1_49er wrote:You haven't factored in the fact that the two projectiles can not be the same external dimensions and will therefore have different ballistic coefficients. Given that the diameter of the two is the same, then the length must be different, the 180gn being the longer.
The trajectories will not be the same.

That is correct. There is also the barrel harmonics to take into account as well as recoil, but we are talking hunting accuracy.
Perhaps if the projectile were different such as monolith versus lead.

There is bound to be a program out there and for hunting accuracy it is probably good enough to just fire a few shots and see then adjust the velocity and see how it affects things.
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by rc42 » 22 May 2021, 9:50 pm

You will likely find that there's a very limited range of projectile weights and velocities that you can use, heavier projectiles would need more powder to match velocity with lighter projectiles but that could make them over pressure, conversely, lighter projectiles would need much less powder and be under loaded which can also be bad.
If you then factor in the required matching between projectile weight, velocity and barrel twist rate needed to stabilize it I don't think it will work out in practice.

Your results would be interesting though.
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by bladeracer » 22 May 2021, 9:58 pm

disco stu wrote:I've just been mulling things over in my mind a bit recently, and I'll get to my reasoning after the question itself.

If you wanted to keep a somewhat similar trajectory between light and heavy projectiles in the same rifle, as in so sighting is close enough between the 2 for hunting, would keeping velocity the same be enough for ranges out to say 150m? I know lighter will lose velocity faster etc etc though.

I've just been pondering the viability of loading my own factory style hunting ammo. I've avoided it before now because of cost of equipment and what you read about load development etc etc. I'm not shooting target comps, just trying to put meat on the table and I figure I could just do a factory type load and be in the exact same position I am right now, and seeing I'm not shooting heaps of rounds then the lee classic hand loader would probably suit me just fine for investment and space it will take up.

I then had the idea of doing some very light projectiles for rabbits etc out of the 308. Can't find projectiles as light as what I would like, and sabot seems to be a no go from what I can tell, so it looks like 110gn is the lightest I can go. Anyway, I then pondered the sighting difference against 150-180 type weights, and thinking on the physics side of things.

Theoretically, if all else is equal then at the same velocity I am picturing that a 180 gn and a 110gn would follow the exact same trajectory, seeing acceleration due to gravity is constant between different masses. What I'm wondering is how well does this work in reality, or what ranges could you expect close enough trajectory for hunting type accuracy?

Cheers in advance

Stu


If you were using them on large game at close distances they'd be pretty close, but not for rabbits.
Ideally you want loads that fall along a vertical line, then you only need worry about holding over, and not windage. It is certainly possible to shoot several different loads, but they're not going to follow the same path. You need maximum precision for small game, so I would zero the rifle with your light fast load, at maybe 250m. Then you need to learn the trajectory of the heavier load so you can hold over/under to suit. In .30-cal you can get down to 86gn bullets, maybe even less, but the large diameter means the lighter bullets are quite short, with poor ballistic coefficient. In 7mm-08 I zero my fast 100gn load at 250m, and note the 145gn and 160gn trajectory for larger targets. The sabot let's you shoot very light bullets, like 30gn .224", but they generally lack the precision you want for small game. You can also load right down to rimfire levels for close-range small game if you want to.

If you go out specifically for small or large game, then you can just zero for the one load for the trip.

I would suggest choosing two readily available bullets, like a 110gn TNT and a 150gn SP, and play around to see if you can come up with loads that work decently together.

I might even be able to find time myself to look at it in my M1903A3 .30-06. I want to have a play with the 86gn bullet in it anyway.
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by disco stu » 22 May 2021, 10:08 pm

Edit: posted this before bladeracer posted

Thanks guys, but I think you have taken me a bit wrong here. I know trajectories will be different, but I'm trying to find out how different and at what range any effective difference will be to great.

I'm talking both theoretical and practical differences.

Theoretically, assuming everything else was the same except the mass of each projectile, the trajectory would be the same, is this correct? (This is just theoretical, I know you can't get around ballistic coefficient difference as the caliber is fixed etc).

Also, I'm not trying to get a heavy projectile the same velocity as the faster light, I'm trying to get the light the same as the slower heavy (what the rifle is mainly used for).

In simpler terms, I'm just trying to suss out if I can get some light cheap rounds that will shoot close enough to the normal rounds I use that I can just point and shoot out to say 100-130yds
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by disco stu » 22 May 2021, 10:21 pm

bladeracer wrote:
disco stu wrote:I've just been mulling things over in my mind a bit recently, and I'll get to my reasoning after the question itself.

If you wanted to keep a somewhat similar trajectory between light and heavy projectiles in the same rifle, as in so sighting is close enough between the 2 for hunting, would keeping velocity the same be enough for ranges out to say 150m? I know lighter will lose velocity faster etc etc though.

I've just been pondering the viability of loading my own factory style hunting ammo. I've avoided it before now because of cost of equipment and what you read about load development etc etc. I'm not shooting target comps, just trying to put meat on the table and I figure I could just do a factory type load and be in the exact same position I am right now, and seeing I'm not shooting heaps of rounds then the lee classic hand loader would probably suit me just fine for investment and space it will take up.

I then had the idea of doing some very light projectiles for rabbits etc out of the 308. Can't find projectiles as light as what I would like, and sabot seems to be a no go from what I can tell, so it looks like 110gn is the lightest I can go. Anyway, I then pondered the sighting difference against 150-180 type weights, and thinking on the physics side of things.

Theoretically, if all else is equal then at the same velocity I am picturing that a 180 gn and a 110gn would follow the exact same trajectory, seeing acceleration due to gravity is constant between different masses. What I'm wondering is how well does this work in reality, or what ranges could you expect close enough trajectory for hunting type accuracy?

Cheers in advance

Stu


If you were using them on large game at close distances they'd be pretty close, but not for rabbits.
Ideally you want loads that fall along a vertical line, then you only need worry about holding over, and not windage. It is certainly possible to shoot several different loads, but they're not going to follow the same path. You need maximum precision for small game, so I would zero the rifle with your light fast load, at maybe 250m. Then you need to learn the trajectory of the heavier load so you can hold over/under to suit. In .30-cal you can get down to 86gn bullets, maybe even less, but the large diameter means the lighter bullets are quite short, with poor ballistic coefficient. In 7mm-08 I zero my fast 100gn load at 250m, and note the 145gn and 160gn trajectory for larger targets. The sabot let's you shoot very light bullets, like 30gn .224", but they generally lack the precision you want for small game. You can also load right down to rimfire levels for close-range small game if you want to.

If you go out specifically for small or large game, then you can just zero for the one load for the trip.

I would suggest choosing two readily available bullets, like a 110gn TNT and a 150gn SP, and play around to see if you can come up with loads that work decently together.

I might even be able to find time myself to look at it in my M1903A3 .30-06. I want to have a play with the 86gn bullet in it anyway.


Thanks BR. Not sure if my post above gives more of an idea what I was thinking, as it seems maybe my thinking isn't getting across, or I've got it all completely wrong.

What would be wrong with slowing down the light projectile with something like trailboss instead of sending it out fast?

At what sort of range will the effect of the crap ballistic coefficient really start to show up? When I'm seeing rabbits while out deer hunting its normally within 150m, so I'm not looking up to go taking 250m shots or anything.

What are the 85gn projectiles you mention being available? I couldn't find anything under 110 myself. Knowing that I might be able to plug things into ballistic calculator and get a better idea
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by disco stu » 23 May 2021, 9:47 am

I found the Hornady 86gn projectiles now I had a figure to Google. I'll check out a ballistic calculator when I get a chance
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by Oldbloke » 23 May 2021, 2:29 pm

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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by bladeracer » 23 May 2021, 6:41 pm

disco stu wrote:Thanks BR. Not sure if my post above gives more of an idea what I was thinking, as it seems maybe my thinking isn't getting across, or I've got it all completely wrong.

What would be wrong with slowing down the light projectile with something like trailboss instead of sending it out fast?

At what sort of range will the effect of the crap ballistic coefficient really start to show up? When I'm seeing rabbits while out deer hunting its normally within 150m, so I'm not looking up to go taking 250m shots or anything.

What are the 85gn projectiles you mention being available? I couldn't find anything under 110 myself. Knowing that I might be able to plug things into ballistic calculator and get a better idea


Busy day, sorry, couldn't even fit in some shooting.
Had a look at the 86gn and looks like it might be out of production, and I think I only have 100 of them. I do still have a lot of 100gn Plinkers though.
Nothing at all wrong with slowing any of your bullets down, as long as you still have enough terminal velocity at the target for the bullet to function, although that's not an issue on small game.
BC really becomes relevant past about 300m, out to there the differences are minimal.
150m on rabbits, assuming you want a meal out of them, is still going to require decent accuracy.

I'm just looking at Hornady and ADI now, and the 110gn VMax is a good choice for small game I think, while still having some BC (.290 to try to stay with a heavier bullet's trajectory). They do a 100gn semi-jacketed soft-point, and the 110gn soft-point also but with significantly lower BC's (.152 and .256).

.308 should have no trouble pushing the 110gn up to 3300fps, a 150gn to about 2900fps, and a 180gn to about 2600fps - depending on barrel length and such. ADI also list a Trailboss load of a 150gn bullet at 1400fps, and a subsonic AS30N load with a 168gn bullet at 1060fps. The VMax is designed to function above 1600fps.

For just varminting, the 110gn VMax at 3300fps zeroed at 150m will be zeroed at 50m, about 25mm high at 100m, 50mm low at 200m, and 150mm low at 250m. At 250m the 10mph wind drift is about 70mm.

For large game, the 150gn Interbond (BC .415) at 2900fps zeroed at 150m will be zeroed at 35m, about 20mm high at 100m, 65mm low at 200m, and 180mm low at 250m. At 250m the 10mph wind drift is about 55mm.

So both bullets are fairly compatible, if they happen to shoot with no significant windage difference. You could comfortably take small and large game out to 250m with no problems if you zero for the varmint load. I don't know the minimum velocity for the 150gn Interbond, but it's probably around the same 1600fps, it's designed to explode on impact like a VMax, so it immediately starts doing maximum damage, but the jacket and core are bonded so it stays together through bone and heavy meat.

If you wanted to you could also load the 110gn VMax back to 2000fps, which will hold 1600fps to about 150m, with significantly less report than a full-noise load. The 110gn VMax at 2000fps zeroed at 100m will be zeroed at 22m, about 20mm high at 100m, 110mm low at 150m, and 320mm low at 200m. At 150m the 10mph wind drift is about 75mm. As the bullet is still above its design velocity to about 150m, you could still use it against larger game at close range, though not the big stuff unless head-shooting.

You could also go subsonic if you wanted to take rabbits with minimal noise to scare off other game. The trajectory is getting closer to shooting a .22LR, which most people do okay with to at least 100m. The VMax won't deform, and there's no hydrostatic shock, but a .30-caliber hole through the brain or heart will still kill very emphatically. The 110gn VMax at 1070fps zeroed at 75m will be zeroed at 10m, about 50mm high at 50m, and 120mm low at 100m. At 100m the 10mph wind drift is about 15mm. A subsonic load is also handy for when you get to the animal you've dropped to find it still kicking.

You would need to try both bullets and see if they're at least close to vertical. If they are, then you can shoot them at various distances and record the holdovers for the heavy load, and the subsonic load, while maintaining the precision varmint zero.

Another option that I haven't managed to get hold of yet is the 190gn Sub-X, designed to function down to 900fps, or about 350m. The 190gn Sub-X at 1070fps zeroed at 100m will be zeroed at 22m, about 110mm high at 55m, 360mm low at 150m, and a meter low at 200m. At 150m the 10mph wind drift is about 15mm. The 190gn bullet only makes about 480 lb-ft of energy at the muzzle, and is down to 400 lb-ft by 150m, so I wouldn't be using it at long-range. It has a blunt polymer tip so I want to try it for subsonic .30-30 loads, when I get some.

This is just a rough example, there are other choices of bullet, light and heavy.
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by ZaineB » 23 May 2021, 7:46 pm

this is the reason all my guns are loaded for around 3150 fps,

but yeah onto the reloading stuff, depending on caliber, I have an RCBS single stage and a Hornady Lock N Load, I have had lee presses in the past but they are cheap and weak, many a time reloading longer/larger magnum caliber brass has the handle broken off the Lee, to the point it was a-holed to the sh!thouse and the Hornady one bought instead, now the lee had 0 issues with 243, 22 hornet, 223 and 222 cartidges, but the 30-06, 270, 6.5x55 and bigger killed it. (and yes before anyone makes the comments, lube used, graphite used, annealing done, all properly lee are just built to the cheap price.)
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by disco stu » 24 May 2021, 2:44 pm

bladeracer wrote:
disco stu wrote:Thanks BR. Not sure if my post above gives more of an idea what I was thinking, as it seems maybe my thinking isn't getting across, or I've got it all completely wrong.

What would be wrong with slowing down the light projectile with something like trailboss instead of sending it out fast?

At what sort of range will the effect of the crap ballistic coefficient really start to show up? When I'm seeing rabbits while out deer hunting its normally within 150m, so I'm not looking up to go taking 250m shots or anything.

What are the 85gn projectiles you mention being available? I couldn't find anything under 110 myself. Knowing that I might be able to plug things into ballistic calculator and get a better idea


Busy day, sorry, couldn't even fit in some shooting.
Had a look at the 86gn and looks like it might be out of production, and I think I only have 100 of them. I do still have a lot of 100gn Plinkers though.
Nothing at all wrong with slowing any of your bullets down, as long as you still have enough terminal velocity at the target for the bullet to function, although that's not an issue on small game.
BC really becomes relevant past about 300m, out to there the differences are minimal.
150m on rabbits, assuming you want a meal out of them, is still going to require decent accuracy.

I'm just looking at Hornady and ADI now, and the 110gn VMax is a good choice for small game I think, while still having some BC (.290 to try to stay with a heavier bullet's trajectory). They do a 100gn semi-jacketed soft-point, and the 110gn soft-point also but with significantly lower BC's (.152 and .256).

.308 should have no trouble pushing the 110gn up to 3300fps, a 150gn to about 2900fps, and a 180gn to about 2600fps - depending on barrel length and such. ADI also list a Trailboss load of a 150gn bullet at 1400fps, and a subsonic AS30N load with a 168gn bullet at 1060fps. The VMax is designed to function above 1600fps.

For just varminting, the 110gn VMax at 3300fps zeroed at 150m will be zeroed at 50m, about 25mm high at 100m, 50mm low at 200m, and 150mm low at 250m. At 250m the 10mph wind drift is about 70mm.

For large game, the 150gn Interbond (BC .415) at 2900fps zeroed at 150m will be zeroed at 35m, about 20mm high at 100m, 65mm low at 200m, and 180mm low at 250m. At 250m the 10mph wind drift is about 55mm.

So both bullets are fairly compatible, if they happen to shoot with no significant windage difference. You could comfortably take small and large game out to 250m with no problems if you zero for the varmint load. I don't know the minimum velocity for the 150gn Interbond, but it's probably around the same 1600fps, it's designed to explode on impact like a VMax, so it immediately starts doing maximum damage, but the jacket and core are bonded so it stays together through bone and heavy meat.

If you wanted to you could also load the 110gn VMax back to 2000fps, which will hold 1600fps to about 150m, with significantly less report than a full-noise load. The 110gn VMax at 2000fps zeroed at 100m will be zeroed at 22m, about 20mm high at 100m, 110mm low at 150m, and 320mm low at 200m. At 150m the 10mph wind drift is about 75mm. As the bullet is still above its design velocity to about 150m, you could still use it against larger game at close range, though not the big stuff unless head-shooting.

You could also go subsonic if you wanted to take rabbits with minimal noise to scare off other game. The trajectory is getting closer to shooting a .22LR, which most people do okay with to at least 100m. The VMax won't deform, and there's no hydrostatic shock, but a .30-caliber hole through the brain or heart will still kill very emphatically. The 110gn VMax at 1070fps zeroed at 75m will be zeroed at 10m, about 50mm high at 50m, and 120mm low at 100m. At 100m the 10mph wind drift is about 15mm. A subsonic load is also handy for when you get to the animal you've dropped to find it still kicking.

You would need to try both bullets and see if they're at least close to vertical. If they are, then you can shoot them at various distances and record the holdovers for the heavy load, and the subsonic load, while maintaining the precision varmint zero.

Another option that I haven't managed to get hold of yet is the 190gn Sub-X, designed to function down to 900fps, or about 350m. The 190gn Sub-X at 1070fps zeroed at 100m will be zeroed at 22m, about 110mm high at 55m, 360mm low at 150m, and a meter low at 200m. At 150m the 10mph wind drift is about 15mm. The 190gn bullet only makes about 480 lb-ft of energy at the muzzle, and is down to 400 lb-ft by 150m, so I wouldn't be using it at long-range. It has a blunt polymer tip so I want to try it for subsonic .30-30 loads, when I get some.

This is just a rough example, there are other choices of bullet, light and heavy.


Thanks Blade Racer. That's some solid info there. Don't apologise for not being at my beck and call!

I'll have to work my way through this over time. One initial question, you mention vertical spread only-does that imply that sometimes different projectiles will have some sideways/windage differences even in still conditions?

Thanks Zaine. I guess this confirms my initial thinking that velocity determines trajectory of all else is equal (which I know it isn't)
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by ZaineB » 24 May 2021, 2:57 pm

disco stu wrote:
Thanks Blade Racer. That's some solid info there. Don't apologise for not being at my beck and call!

I'll have to work my way through this over time. One initial question, you mention vertical spread only-does that imply that sometimes different projectiles will have some sideways/windage differences even in still conditions?

Thanks Zaine. I guess this confirms my initial thinking that velocity determines trajectory of all else is equal (which I know it isn't)



yeah mate picture it like all the debris from a high explosive event, most of the common sized debris will be moving at more or less the same pace as the expansion of gasses/inertia of the explosion propels them. once however they get to a certain distance they will incrementally lose momentum and begin to fall a folly to gravity and other factors like wind. also another point with wind drift, a 130 grain bullet out of a 308 going 2800 fps is going to experience more wind drift than a 130 grain out of a 300 win mag going 3300 fps simply because the winmag would subject the projectile to that wind for less time. so projectiles are not linear in how much wind drift they experience. as for still conditions, if there is infact 0 wind or lets say 1 mph of wind, it is likely that there will be some buffeting but its likely going to have an end result of millimeters or less, so dont bother with it, most of those windage calculations rely on over 5mph for longer distance and 10mph over shorter distances, but like I say speed counters it as well as BC.
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by bladeracer » 24 May 2021, 3:09 pm

disco stu wrote:Thanks Blade Racer. That's some solid info there. Don't apologise for not being at my beck and call!

I'll have to work my way through this over time. One initial question, you mention vertical spread only-does that imply that sometimes different projectiles will have some sideways/windage differences even in still conditions?

Thanks Zaine. I guess this confirms my initial thinking that velocity determines trajectory of all else is equal (which I know it isn't)



Yep, particularly as you significantly change bullet weight and/or velocity. Sometimes you have to play with the secondary load a bit to hopefully get it vertically below your primary load. With large game, a minute or two to the side isn't a big deal, that's why you zero with the precision load. Barrel harmonics play a role in that the position of the muzzle when the bullet exits can be different by a few thou, due to a different velocity or bullet weight travelling rapidly up the barrel while spinning at a couple-hundred-thousand RPM.



I was shooting Federal 510 .22LR at 180m on Saturday, and it was hitting four-minutes to the right of my CCI Std Velocity zero in the RPR. Same bullet weight, but one doing 1070fps, the other doing 1260fps. No wind at all, as in the wind meter wasn't moving at all - very rare out here :-)

This was my hold on the chicken at 180m, aiming for the junction of the right side of the leg with the bum.
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by bladeracer » 24 May 2021, 3:15 pm

In that photo, when I was shooting at the ram, I knew the bullets were clearing my shooting table, but not by as much as I'd thought. I managed to put one through the MTM shooting rest an inch above the table top. The 1260fps Federal doesn't fly as high as the 1070fps CCI I'm used to - oops :-)
Three-inches difference in height at that point in the bullet's path.
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by SCJ429 » 24 May 2021, 6:58 pm

Nice bit of grass where you are Blade. Looks great.
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by in2anity » 24 May 2021, 8:13 pm

The StrelokPro app is surprisingly accurate. That will answer all trajectory related questions you may have.
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by straightshooter » 25 May 2021, 8:13 am

disco stu
Once upon a time I grappled with the exact same dilemma you ask about.
My solution for my 308w walking around rifle at that time was this:
First I established my larger game load with a 150 grain softpoint projectile and sighted it in for a reliable 200 yard zero.
I then tried various loadings of 110 grain FMJ carbine projectiles until I found a combination that shot to the exact same zero at 200 yards. It didn't take too much effort and the difference in midrange elevations was sufficiently small to ignore.
With the benefit of better educated hindsight I can see that trying to work things out from trajectory tables would have been useless due the effect of the markedly different recoil characteristics of the two loads.
This recoil phenomenon is what 303 lovers refer to as 'compensation' and what they believe is a 'secret ingredient' cooked into the Lee Enfield action.
Not withstanding all of the above, you will eventually find that the most satisfactory solution is to have a small game rifle of suitable caliber and a larger game rifle also of suitable caliber.
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by bladeracer » 25 May 2021, 8:50 am

straightshooter wrote:disco stu
Once upon a time I grappled with the exact same dilemma you ask about.
My solution for my 308w walking around rifle at that time was this:
First I established my larger game load with a 150 grain softpoint projectile and sighted it in for a reliable 200 yard zero.
I then tried various loadings of 110 grain FMJ carbine projectiles until I found a combination that shot to the exact same zero at 200 yards. It didn't take too much effort and the difference in midrange elevations was sufficiently small to ignore.
With the benefit of better educated hindsight I can see that trying to work things out from trajectory tables would have been useless due the effect of the markedly different recoil characteristics of the two loads.
This recoil phenomenon is what 303 lovers refer to as 'compensation' and what they believe is a 'secret ingredient' cooked into the Lee Enfield action.
Not withstanding all of the above, you will eventually find that the most satisfactory solution is to have a small game rifle of suitable caliber and a larger game rifle also of suitable caliber.


Yes, I can't stress enough that you "must" learn the actual trajectory of your loads through shooting them at different distances, regardless of whether you use just one or several. Never rely on calculations when you are shooting at live targets without confirming the calculations beforehand on the range. And you must study how a second load falls, at those distances, when the rifle is zeroed for the first load. The trajectory calculations may be spot on, but the muzzle may not throw both trajectories from the same starting point due to the differences in how each load affects the muzzle, the rifle, and the shooter.

Carting an extra rifle around in difficult deer country is not something I recommend, unless it's perhaps a sub-2kg breakdown. But then it becomes useless, by the time you unpack it, the rabbit/fox/cat/dog has strolled away in tears of laughter. You're better off leaving it at home and ignore the pest targets when you're hunting bigger game. If you want the option to knock off some pests while you're on the way out or back, it's way more practical to carry a second mag or some different ammo in your pocket.
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by in2anity » 25 May 2021, 1:20 pm

straightshooter wrote:This recoil phenomenon is what 303 lovers refer to as 'compensation' and what they believe is a 'secret ingredient' cooked into the Lee Enfield action.

Didn't realize you knew all 303 lovers. Amazing.
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by straightshooter » 26 May 2021, 8:13 am

bladeracer wrote:
straightshooter wrote:disco stu
Once upon a time I grappled with the exact same dilemma you ask about.
My solution for my 308w walking around rifle at that time was this:
First I established my larger game load with a 150 grain softpoint projectile and sighted it in for a reliable 200 yard zero.
I then tried various loadings of 110 grain FMJ carbine projectiles until I found a combination that shot to the exact same zero at 200 yards. It didn't take too much effort and the difference in midrange elevations was sufficiently small to ignore.
With the benefit of better educated hindsight I can see that trying to work things out from trajectory tables would have been useless due the effect of the markedly different recoil characteristics of the two loads.
This recoil phenomenon is what 303 lovers refer to as 'compensation' and what they believe is a 'secret ingredient' cooked into the Lee Enfield action.
Not withstanding all of the above, you will eventually find that the most satisfactory solution is to have a small game rifle of suitable caliber and a larger game rifle also of suitable caliber.


Yes, I can't stress enough that you "must" learn the actual trajectory of your loads through shooting them at different distances, regardless of whether you use just one or several. Never rely on calculations when you are shooting at live targets without confirming the calculations beforehand on the range. And you must study how a second load falls, at those distances, when the rifle is zeroed for the first load. The trajectory calculations may be spot on, but the muzzle may not throw both trajectories from the same starting point due to the differences in how each load affects the muzzle, the rifle, and the shooter.

Carting an extra rifle around in difficult deer country is not something I recommend, unless it's perhaps a sub-2kg breakdown. But then it becomes useless, by the time you unpack it, the rabbit/fox/cat/dog has strolled away in tears of laughter. You're better off leaving it at home and ignore the pest targets when you're hunting bigger game. If you want the option to knock off some pests while you're on the way out or back, it's way more practical to carry a second mag or some different ammo in your pocket.

I agree with most of your post.
Although taking multiple rifles on a hunting trip isn't unheard of, at least where I come from, physically carrying around two rifles while stalking on foot, especially if one is interested in bagging a specific species of game, indeed sounds like a dumb idea.
I am nonplussed as to how anyone could have come to that interpretation.
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by straightshooter » 26 May 2021, 8:29 am

in2anity wrote:
straightshooter wrote:This recoil phenomenon is what 303 lovers refer to as 'compensation' and what they believe is a 'secret ingredient' cooked into the Lee Enfield action.

Didn't realize you knew all 303 lovers. Amazing.

What you imply is quite correct.
I don't know ALL 303 lovers just a few and among them a sprinkling of uncompromising zealots but I am unsure that I may have suggested that I did.
So in any event in this instance I have unfortunately succumbed to the "fallacy of composition".
I will try to do better in future and I hope others will learn from my humiliating experience.
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by bladeracer » 26 May 2021, 8:54 am

straightshooter wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
straightshooter wrote:disco stu
Once upon a time I grappled with the exact same dilemma you ask about.
My solution for my 308w walking around rifle at that time was this:
First I established my larger game load with a 150 grain softpoint projectile and sighted it in for a reliable 200 yard zero.
I then tried various loadings of 110 grain FMJ carbine projectiles until I found a combination that shot to the exact same zero at 200 yards. It didn't take too much effort and the difference in midrange elevations was sufficiently small to ignore.
With the benefit of better educated hindsight I can see that trying to work things out from trajectory tables would have been useless due the effect of the markedly different recoil characteristics of the two loads.
This recoil phenomenon is what 303 lovers refer to as 'compensation' and what they believe is a 'secret ingredient' cooked into the Lee Enfield action.
Not withstanding all of the above, you will eventually find that the most satisfactory solution is to have a small game rifle of suitable caliber and a larger game rifle also of suitable caliber.


Yes, I can't stress enough that you "must" learn the actual trajectory of your loads through shooting them at different distances, regardless of whether you use just one or several. Never rely on calculations when you are shooting at live targets without confirming the calculations beforehand on the range. And you must study how a second load falls, at those distances, when the rifle is zeroed for the first load. The trajectory calculations may be spot on, but the muzzle may not throw both trajectories from the same starting point due to the differences in how each load affects the muzzle, the rifle, and the shooter.

Carting an extra rifle around in difficult deer country is not something I recommend, unless it's perhaps a sub-2kg breakdown. But then it becomes useless, by the time you unpack it, the rabbit/fox/cat/dog has strolled away in tears of laughter. You're better off leaving it at home and ignore the pest targets when you're hunting bigger game. If you want the option to knock off some pests while you're on the way out or back, it's way more practical to carry a second mag or some different ammo in your pocket.


I agree with most of your post.
Although taking multiple rifles on a hunting trip isn't unheard of, at least where I come from, physically carrying around two rifles while stalking on foot, especially if one is interested in bagging a specific species of game, indeed sounds like a dumb idea.
I am nonplussed as to how anyone could have come to that interpretation.


Indeed, when I was a young bloke I invariably went out with two firearms, and sometimes three. But that was generally relatively easy farmland, not deer country, and not inhabiting a high-mileage, hard-ridden, poorly-maintained vintage body :-).

This thread is about being able to use one rifle to do different jobs on a single hunting trip. You suggested it'd be better to have two different rifles, one for small game and one for large game. When you are walking several kilometers in to and out of the area you want to hunt, there is a very good chance you'll see other animals, animals you would like to take out, sometimes without alerting the game for 1000m ahead of you. Personally, even if I were focused on taking a magnificent buck on a trip, I would really struggle to simply ignore any feral cats, dogs, goats, pigs or foxes I find inhabiting the bush. I can always enjoy another trip to take my buck, but the ferals have to go.
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by in2anity » 26 May 2021, 12:33 pm

straightshooter wrote:I don't know ALL 303 lovers just a few and among them a sprinkling of uncompromising zealots but I am unsure that I may have suggested that I did.
So in any event in this instance I have unfortunately succumbed to the "fallacy of composition".
I will try to do better in future and I hope others will learn from my humiliating experience.


You do realize this particular forum is generally fairly respectful? I mean, you really don't always need to stand up on your pedestal and patronize everyone with your big words and apparent elitism; perhaps it's out of a feeling of insecurity due to previously being mistreated :?: .... because nobody is mistreating you here.

You can just speak layman like the rest of us, and still be quite respected. In fact it may actually be really beneficial for you. We all know you are very knowledgeable about shooting, how about just keep it light?

I get other forums are very much a pissing contest in this regard, and I can see how that sort of toxic elitism culture is brewed. But dude, here it's all good, it's really not a contest. Just a bunch of knockabout ozzies chatting about guns. #justsayin :unknown:
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by bladeracer » 26 May 2021, 12:47 pm

Okay, now you got me curious :-)
I didn't see anything snarky or confrontational in the statement about Lee Enfields, but I also didn't see any relevance to it, so I just ignored it. It came across as a lighthearted throw-away line to me.
Could either of you explain it to me please?
PM if you prefer not to start a slanging match on here.


in2anity wrote:
straightshooter wrote:I don't know ALL 303 lovers just a few and among them a sprinkling of uncompromising zealots but I am unsure that I may have suggested that I did.
So in any event in this instance I have unfortunately succumbed to the "fallacy of composition".
I will try to do better in future and I hope others will learn from my humiliating experience.


You do realize this particular forum is generally fairly respectful? I mean, you really don't always need to stand up on your pedestal and patronize everyone with your big words and apparent elitism; perhaps it's out of a feeling of insecurity due to previously being mistreated :?: .... because nobody is mistreating you here.

You can just speak layman like the rest of us, and still be quite respected. In fact it may actually be really beneficial for you. We all know you are very knowledgeable about shooting, how about just keep it light?

I get other forums are very much a pissing contest in this regard, and I can see how that sort of toxic elitism culture is brewed. But dude, here it's all good, it's really not a contest. Just a bunch of knockabout ozzies chatting about guns. #justsayin :unknown:
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by in2anity » 26 May 2021, 1:00 pm

straightshooter wrote:This recoil phenomenon is what 303 lovers refer to as 'compensation' and what they believe is a 'secret ingredient' cooked into the Lee Enfield action.


Well Blade, I took it as a slander against 303 shooters, as if they are (all) some sort of blinkered Lee-Enfield action fanboys, which is garbage. But perhaps I misinterpreted, if so I stand corrected... perhaps I was being overly precious. Perhaps not. :thumbsup:
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by bladeracer » 26 May 2021, 1:24 pm

in2anity wrote:
straightshooter wrote:This recoil phenomenon is what 303 lovers refer to as 'compensation' and what they believe is a 'secret ingredient' cooked into the Lee Enfield action.


Well Blade, I took it as a slander against 303 shooters, as if they are (all) some sort of blinkered Lee-Enfield action fanboys, which is garbage. But perhaps I misinterpreted, if so I stand corrected... perhaps I was being overly precious. Perhaps not. :thumbsup:


I'm actually more curious about the content of the statement, "recoil phenomenon", "compensation", and "secret ingredient", seem to indicate some perceived "benefit" in the design?

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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by bladeracer » 26 May 2021, 3:26 pm

disco stu wrote:I've just been pondering the viability of loading my own factory style hunting ammo. I've avoided it before now because of cost of equipment and what you read about load development etc etc. I'm not shooting target comps, just trying to put meat on the table and I figure I could just do a factory type load and be in the exact same position I am right now, and seeing I'm not shooting heaps of rounds then the lee classic hand loader would probably suit me just fine for investment and space it will take up.


Yes, the Lee Loader makes fine ammo, it just takes longer. Last time I looked at a Lee Loader they were about $75 though, which is a bargain still, as it is all you require. My brother also bought a portable vice rather than use a hammer (like I did as a kid). He hasn't bought a scale, but he did buy the Lee Dipper set, and we weighed loads of AR2206H on my scale to determine exactly what each dipper throws. Eventually you will also need a FLS die to bump the shoulders back, but you can still buy vice-dies for common cartridges. And you'll eventually need to trim the brass, which can be done with a file. And a caliper to measure things.

On the other hand, the Lee Breechlock Challenger kit is about $310, plus a set of dies for another $50 to $120 depending on your needs, and the case trimmer set for $15. I like the Lee Loaders, but I find a press a whole lot more user friendly. A press certainly requires more space than the Lee Loader, but it doesn't need to be set up permanently, bolt the press to a board and clamp that down to whatever bench surface you're using at the time.

A few years ago I built a wooden self-contained reloading cabinet to be totally portable. The press was mounted in it and the front doors opened to each side to provide the leverage for the press so the whole thing didn't topple forward. Shelves and compartments held the scale, dies, tools and such. But it quickly became evident that I would need to build a complete setup for virtually every cartridge I load for. If you're only loading for one or two cartridges though, this is certainly an option you could look at. It was lockable so brass, ammo, bullets, powders and primers could be stored within it. I also assembled a similar setup with the Lee Hand Press in a Bunnings aluminium briefcase for in the field load development, but encountered the same problem of lacking versatility without become too unwieldy to be useful.

As for load development, I really only bother going in depth with my hunting rifles. My milsurps and pistol-calibers I generally just pick a load out of the air, load some and try them, if they shoot okay I run off a couple hundred. When I get through those I decide whether they're sufficient or need some adjustments. Some of these rifles I do enjoy trying to develop a more accurate load, or a hunting load for, but it's not a requirement. But I also love experimenting with different bullets and velocities, and I would guess I spend more time playing around than actually developing precision loads.
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by Oldbloke » 26 May 2021, 3:59 pm

Blade has covered that pretty well. Reloading can be as basic (cheap) or complicated as you want.

This DIY thread has a few tips for doing it on the cheap.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13453
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Re: Trajectory of different projectile weights

Post by disco stu » 29 May 2021, 2:51 pm

Thanks for all the replies. Sorry I've been slow to reply. I keep learning something new here and going off to learn more about it and then running out of time to reply.

That's a really helpful run down on the reloading also blade racer, thank you. It's hard reading other threads as it makes it seem very involved, so it's nice knowing it can be simple.

I'm starting to think it's proudly not a great idea going off the info given here, though it also sounds like it could work but will take some figuring out with no guarantees. I was hoping it might be a simple solution for close shots while walking to and from deer spots.

I'm now thinking best bet will be working out a different sling arrangement for the 22 so I can hopefully just hang it off the other shoulder and it stays put without me needing to hand onto it. Maybe a second strap around other side of neck or clip onto bag strap

In the long term I'll have a play with this idea here and see how it compares, but I won't view it a "silver bullet" :) solution
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