cast bullets

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cast bullets

Post by flashman » 27 Nov 2021, 8:09 am

Hi all ,going to cast my own bullets soon ,but i dont understand the make up of the bullet ect: lead only plus tin or other alloys , and gas checks ?? ,will be loadings for 30/30 win and 308 win , have most of the gear after a bullet mold and sizing die are finding hard to get , is there a shop that cater for this type of gear local GSP has no idea .........ok thanks
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Re: cast bullets

Post by allthegearandnoidea » 27 Nov 2021, 9:01 am

Don’t know about shops but best source of info is definitely the cast boolits forum
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Re: cast bullets

Post by LawrenceA » 27 Nov 2021, 9:58 am

allthegearandnoidea wrote:Don’t know about shops but best source of info is definitely the cast boolits forum

What he said hands down.
But for what it is worth.....
You will need to look at what velocity you are trying to obtain and cast accordingly.
30-30 is easy as it tops out at around 2400 to 2500 so a hard cast with a good lube and gas check is all you need.
308 is going to be harder as it has more velocity. If it were me I would powdercoat as well as gas check.
Worst comes to worst paper patch will fix it.
Also important to size correctly if no gas check or patch. Needs to be about 2 thou over throat or you will get leading bad.

Depending on the 308 you may have trouble feeding cast.

Good luck
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Re: cast bullets

Post by flashman » 27 Nov 2021, 10:58 am

Ok thanks for the information , will check that forum out , question time ,for 308 dia will it be 309 or 308 sizing die and will i use a gas check if the bullet is sized ? hardness of lead looking for a recipe ??, its harder then it looks.... :problem:
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Re: cast bullets

Post by bladeracer » 27 Nov 2021, 11:43 am

flashman wrote:Hi all ,going to cast my own bullets soon ,but i dont understand the make up of the bullet ect: lead only plus tin or other alloys , and gas checks ?? ,will be loadings for 30/30 win and 308 win , have most of the gear after a bullet mold and sizing die are finding hard to get , is there a shop that cater for this type of gear local GSP has no idea .........ok thanks


It can be a complex thing to learn :-)
Pure lead works fine at relatively low velocities, say 1200fps max depending on the firearm and caliber.
Then you need to start addressing the bullet being damaged during its passage down the bore. A harder alloy is the easiest way. You harden lead by alloying it with other metals, tin, antimony, arsenic. The easiest way to do this is to add other alloys that already contain those metals, like wheel weights, hard shot, or stick solder, and melt it together with pure lead if it's harder than you need.

Sizing dies are just a hole you push the bullet through to make it the size you need, very easily made from cheap black bolts - 7/8"-14tpi thread straight into a press. I avoid sizing if I can. Lee do a .309" die, but you might find a .310" or .311" works better for your rifle.

If you are pushing your bullets even harder than you can alloy for, then you can look at powder-coating them, also very easy, and quicker than lubing them.

I use gas checks more for a consistent base to the bullet for accuracy than for velocity, and it can reduce bore cleaning. Checks are very cheap so easy to experiment with.

For moulds look at CBE here in Australia, but push a soft lead slug through your bore first to determine what diameter you need. Ideally get a mould that will throw your alloy .002" larger than your bore diameter.

https://www.castbulletengineering.com.a ... lds/30-cal

In .30-30 and .308 I would get a .310" mould, or .312" if it's a Microgroove Marlin bore. With Microgroove you might have trouble finding something that shoots well.
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Re: cast bullets

Post by LawrenceA » 27 Nov 2021, 11:48 am

flashman wrote:Ok thanks for the information , will check that forum out , question time ,for 308 dia will it be 309 or 308 sizing die and will i use a gas check if the bullet is sized ? hardness of lead looking for a recipe ??, its harder then it looks.... :problem:

309 diameter. Ideally measure the throat and go over 2 thou.
It is as hard as you want it to be.
I use straight wheel weights, gas check and powder coat for 30-30 hunting and full patch loads with a 150 grain hollow point from MP Molds.
They wont feed in my 30-06 so cant say what to use.
Not tried in a 308 yet.
If you are not powder coating make sure you use a good lube.
Liquid Alox is my go to.

After a have a few hundred I then weigh and batch them and cull the heaviest and lightest ones. Powder coat and size the rest
After a while you will throw very consistent bullets with less than 5% going to remelt but you may choose not to do that. Depends on how far and how accurate you want.

The process kinda varies on size as I cast from 55gn to 525gn bullets in 22 to 62 cal.
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Re: cast bullets

Post by bladeracer » 27 Nov 2021, 11:49 am

Paper-patching is a great option, but requires under-size moulds to allow for the thickness of your paper. Basic rule for four thicknesses (two full wraps) is .016" smaller, so around .295" for a 308" bore. .285" bullets would work with three wraps or thicker paper. I use PP more for increasing bullet diameter than for bullet protection.

LawrenceA wrote:
allthegearandnoidea wrote:Don’t know about shops but best source of info is definitely the cast boolits forum

What he said hands down.
But for what it is worth.....
You will need to look at what velocity you are trying to obtain and cast accordingly.
30-30 is easy as it tops out at around 2400 to 2500 so a hard cast with a good lube and gas check is all you need.
308 is going to be harder as it has more velocity. If it were me I would powdercoat as well as gas check.
Worst comes to worst paper patch will fix it.
Also important to size correctly if no gas check or patch. Needs to be about 2 thou over throat or you will get leading bad.

Depending on the 308 you may have trouble feeding cast.

Good luck
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Re: cast bullets

Post by bladeracer » 27 Nov 2021, 11:59 am

flashman wrote:Ok thanks for the information , will check that forum out , question time ,for 308 dia will it be 309 or 308 sizing die and will i use a gas check if the bullet is sized ? hardness of lead looking for a recipe ??, its harder then it looks.... :problem:



Push a lump of soft lead through your bore, or do a chamber/throat cast using casting alloy, or do a pound cast of your throat. These will tell you the diameter of your throat. You want your bullet to be .001" to .002" larger than the throat, possibly .003" if it's a Marlin.

You need a mould at least that size. If you want to size your bullets down for a precise consistent fit, then you might prefer a fatter mould so you have more room to work with.

Gas check is personal preference, but you will want a GC mould to have the option, trying to check non-check bullets can be difficult. Personally I would just powder-coat them.

What is the purpose of the bullet - competition, hunting, plinking? For hunting you want fairly soft lead, but probably not pure. Try hard lead shot (about$11/kg currently), or order bullet alloy from Northern Smelters. Last time I ordered from NS the cost was roughly on-par with buying locally, but I ordered about 35kg from memory.
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Re: cast bullets

Post by Blr243 » 27 Nov 2021, 2:43 pm

The hardness of your projectiles due to the velocities sought can be detrimental to effectiveness if hunting
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Re: cast bullets

Post by flashman » 28 Nov 2021, 8:51 am

Great lot of info ,its win 94 30/30 for deer at close range 50m and under ,308 is a Howa ,goats and dogs to 100m , it possible i can use the same mold for both guns or slugging the will determine if i require 2 molds , bullet shape varies ,would i still have to use a flat nose in 30/30 win ,and what practical FPS is acheibable .....
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Re: cast bullets

Post by LawrenceA » 28 Nov 2021, 10:10 am

Of course you need a flat nose for the 30-30 unless you single load.
As stated above the 30-30 maxes out at about 2400 so no worries with cast with gas check etcetera.
You will need to see what feeds through the Howa
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Re: cast bullets

Post by bladeracer » 28 Nov 2021, 10:45 am

flashman wrote:Great lot of info ,its win 94 30/30 for deer at close range 50m and under ,308 is a Howa ,goats and dogs to 100m , it possible i can use the same mold for both guns or slugging the will determine if i require 2 molds , bullet shape varies ,would i still have to use a flat nose in 30/30 win ,and what practical FPS is acheibable .....


For hunting then you probably want fairly soft bullets, hardcast bullets perform like FMJ on flesh.
And preferably with hollow-points, although that's not essential with soft lead, just use a big flat meplat to initiate deformation. The blunt bullet may not cycle well in the .308 though. I do own an M94, I don't own a Howa.

In the tube magazine I would stick with a flat meplat at least as large in diameter as the primer, although if you were loading light bullets at very low velocities the recoil would be very low making little risk of tube detonation under recoil. The M94 does allow single-feed though, so you could single-feed with more pointed bullets if you prefer.

When you slug the bores, if they measure the same, then you're in with a chance of using the same bullet in both, but the feed systems are very different. The Howa may require a more pointed bullet to cycle.

As for velocity, it will likely be about the same in both, you're essentially loading the .308 back to be a .30-30. As cast bullet accuracy is rarely as good as jacketed bullets are capable of, you might find it easier to keep the .308 for jacketed loads and just use cast in the .30-30, rather than have two different ". 30-30's".

Potential velocity probably comes down to your specific barrels, and how much they tear the bullet, and how much you mind cleaning your bores. There's nothing preventing you from shooting soft cast bullets at 2500fps just lubed with Alox (I've done it myself), but cleaning the lead out of the bore is a chore. With Alox lube and a bullet of around 10BHN, and large enough to prevent gas cutting, probably around 1600fps I would think is easy, maybe 1800fps. Above that I powdercoat them. The powdercoat forms a jacket, the same as a copper one. With PC and a hard alloy you can probably push them as hard as your jacketed loads.
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Re: cast bullets

Post by bladeracer » 28 Nov 2021, 10:53 am

Blr243 wrote:The hardness of your projectiles due to the velocities sought can be detrimental to effectiveness if hunting


The bullet doesn't need to be hard to make velocity, it just needs to be protected from friction with the bore, by powdercoat or paper jacket.
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Re: cast bullets

Post by bladeracer » 28 Nov 2021, 11:07 am

A couple of files on my Mediafire account.

Fryxell's From Ingot to Target
https://www.mediafire.com/file/gs2gdoev ... y.pdf/file

Lyman 48th Edition Reloading Handbook
https://www.mediafire.com/file/zfu9ydn9 ... k.pdf/file

Lee's Modern reloading 1st Edition
https://www.mediafire.com/file/x8etv3j7 ... e.pdf/file

Colonel Harrison's Cast Bullets
https://www.mediafire.com/file/7yx6pr7j ... n.pdf/file

Narramore's Handloader's manual 1943
https://www.mediafire.com/file/3p33wmy1 ... 3.pdf/file

Lyman Reloading Handbook 44th Edition 1967
https://www.mediafire.com/file/dunztlfd ... 4.pdf/file

Edited: I see the forum truncated the links to be unreadable...
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Re: cast bullets

Post by LawrenceA » 28 Nov 2021, 1:16 pm

Bladeracer you never cease to amaze!
Well done
:clap:
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Re: cast bullets

Post by flashman » 28 Nov 2021, 2:06 pm

Thank u too Bladeracer and every one for the helping hand ,Mate dropped a book off its not new : HANDBOOK OF CAST BULLETS by Lyman ...dated july 1958 is it worth reading or to old ????
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Re: cast bullets

Post by bladeracer » 28 Nov 2021, 2:50 pm

flashman wrote:Thank u too Bladeracer and every one for the helping hand ,Mate dropped a book off its not new : HANDBOOK OF CAST BULLETS by Lyman ...dated july 1958 is it worth reading or to old ????


I doubt anything is too old when it comes to bullet casting :-)
It won't include modern options like powdercoat or paint, but should cover everything else.
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Re: cast bullets

Post by bladeracer » 28 Nov 2021, 4:54 pm

This is the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd Edition 1980

https://www.mediafire.com/file/xji95tdf ... 1.pdf/file
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Re: cast bullets

Post by flashman » 28 Nov 2021, 5:53 pm

Thanks again for all the info and help going to sort through all aspects of casting , just a quick one powder coating is a spray on arrangement or is there more to it .......
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Re: cast bullets

Post by bladeracer » 28 Nov 2021, 7:34 pm

flashman wrote:Thanks again for all the info and help going to sort through all aspects of casting , just a quick one powder coating is a spray on arrangement or is there more to it .......


PC is baked on, not sprayed, that would be painting.
For PC you tumble the bullets in powder, then bake at around 200C for 20-minutes. Then they're done and you can start loading ammo when they cool down, much quicker than even tumble lubing.

You can cast, PC and test shoot your bullets in an hour if you need to.
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Re: cast bullets

Post by flashman » 28 Nov 2021, 9:00 pm

where wood i look for powder charge weight using ADI powders, with cast bullets.....???
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Re: cast bullets

Post by bladeracer » 28 Nov 2021, 9:57 pm

flashman wrote:where wood i look for powder charge weight using ADI powders, with cast bullets.....???


For .30-30, ADI have Cowboy loads.
http://www.adiworldclass.com.au/data-si ... winchester

It does appear they've removed a lot of their cast load data. I don't have access to my logbooks currently but I have the loads written on the ammo boxes, which I can look at tomorrow.

Otherwise, there should be plenty of load data online for cast bullets in both chamberings.
ADI powders are marketed in the US under different names.
From ADI's FAQ:
"ADI PowderHodgdon / IMR naming
Trail Boss Trail Boss
AR2207 H4198
AR2219 H322
BM2 Benchmark
Bench Mark 8208 8208 XBR
AR2206H H4895
AR2208 Varget
AR2209 H4350
AR2213H/AR2213SC H4831/H4831SC
AR2217 H1000
AR2225 Retumbo
AR2218 H50BMG"

Note also that ADI is not currently producing any powders they would have listed for cast bullets, like Trailboss or any of the AP/AS/APS line, or AR2205. So you will have to find a source from another manufacturer of pistol/shotgun powders, or use AR2206H/H4895, which is my preference.
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Re: cast bullets

Post by flashman » 29 Nov 2021, 8:03 am

Ok Bladeracer thanks again been watching a mas of you tube vids ,seen using a Lee resizing die to crimp the gas checks in to the base of the bullet , by putting the bullet up side down and gas check first seems to work is the another way .......
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Re: cast bullets

Post by flashman » 29 Nov 2021, 8:12 am

Now with equipment ,iv got my LEE furnace ,lead ,next on my list molds ,resizing die ,bullet lube gas checks but most of my local GS don"t cater for casters ,must look further a field ..........
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Re: cast bullets

Post by bladeracer » 29 Nov 2021, 10:17 am

flashman wrote:Now with equipment ,iv got my LEE furnace ,lead ,next on my list molds ,resizing die ,bullet lube gas checks but most of my local GS don"t cater for casters ,must look further a field ..........


Order it all on Ebay.com.au - don't restrict yourself to what you might find locally. Most of it can be sourced directly from the US.

You can usually clip checks on without pushing them through a sizing die. But I buy the Lee sizing dies as they come with Alox lube.

Powders and primers will be your stumbling block very soon, confirm your dealer can get you both, and grab enough to last at least a couple years.
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Re: cast bullets

Post by Oldbloke » 29 Nov 2021, 11:27 am

From the 3rd Ed 2000 ADI manual.

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Re: cast bullets

Post by flashman » 04 Dec 2021, 5:43 pm

Thanks all good on the ADI powders then ,is Trail boss worth getting as well ? Its a cowboy action powder i gather ....
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Re: cast bullets

Post by bladeracer » 04 Dec 2021, 5:53 pm

flashman wrote:Thanks all good on the ADI powders then ,is Trail boss worth getting as well ? Its a cowboy action powder i gather ....


Grab it if you can find it, there's not much you can't load with Trailboss, but it does have a velocity ceiling in the "reduced" realm, particularly in larger cartridges. Light bullets in .204, .223, .243 and such can exceed 2000fps on Trailboss, but it's difficult to get most of the bigger stuff over 2000fps.

Basically, I would grab any Trailboss, AR2205, or any AP/AS/APS powders you can find, it isn't being made currently.
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Re: cast bullets

Post by gunnnie » 06 Dec 2021, 8:30 pm

Good luck on trying to find TrailBoss! It's as rare as rocking horse dung. The last two tubs of it that I've scored this past year, weren't from stores!
It hasn't been made in over a year that I know of.
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Re: cast bullets

Post by Hardcast » 19 Mar 2022, 3:18 pm

Do you want to try casting for the sheer enjoyment, or do you just want to shoot cast bullets. ??
There's a few Cast bullet manufacturers out there who make a good product. Most though are too hard for hunting. Black Hawk from Hawksebury River Cast Bullets is one.
My 30.30 loved the cheap Lee mold. 160 grn. gass check. My 30.06, the heavier Lee, 180 or 200 grn. The Lee, Liquid Alox lube will do fine.
Send a message if you run into trouble. There's a lot to learn. Cast loads are not quite as forgiving as jacketed.
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