Why such powerful calibres ever got developed?

[roob]

I was looking through YouTube vids and some article and stuff on "big" calibres and just got me wondering on how some of them ever actually came to be?

The .700 NE is always one that gets put in videos and you see the recoil knocking people out of chairs and stuff...

Looking at some other big game cartridges like the .458 win mag which was designed in 1956. Shoots 500gr bullets and hits like a truck obviously...

30 years later someone at Holland & Holland comes along and goes..."Nah, that's too small. I really need a .70 cal rifle with 1,000gr bullets" and develops the .700 Nitro express.

I've never shot a .700 NE but it must be a nightmare for recoil obviously, no one could actually enjoy shooting it. And does it do anything that existing cartridges didn't already do and the time?

It's sorta hard to see how some of them ever came about. Know what I mean?

[sneaker]

I supposed they worked they way up, just wanting a bit more and a bit more power...

Because there's a bunch of NE cartridges, right... 470, 500, 600, 700 etc.

[Monty]

Sneaker,

You'll find they actually developed all the Nitro Express cartridges in more of a descending order.

The cartridges and design dates are...
.700 designed in 1988
.577 designed in 1898
.450 designed in 1898
.600 designed in 1899
.500 designed in 1890
.470 designed in 1900

Not a straight line, but the trend was downward as you can see.

I have no doubt reducing recoil was part of the these developments.

[Old Fart]

The whole Nitro Express family was designed as 'elephant gun' equipment, back when such things were kosher...

If you were hunting a 7,000kg elephant, is there such a thing as too much gun?

[tom604]

You are not taking into account that people like big guns and lets face it, if you had the money (and the place to shoot it) you would get one, even if it was just to piss off your mates or the 'know all' at the range

Every company want bragging rights

[roob]

I get the 'big gun' factor to an extent, I'm sure one would be a blast to fire a couple of times for fun.

Looking at the recoil though, I think I can safely say I'd never want to buy or regularly use one.

[Elek]

The whole Nitro Express family was designed as 'elephant gun' equipment, back when such things were kosher...

If you were hunting a 7,000kg elephant, is there such a thing as too much gun?

I suppose too it was designed during a time when technology and manufacturing abilities where less as well. It's a 100+ year old cartridge done forget.

No computer ballistics simulations etc. to squeeze more efficiency out of the same space.

Want more power, you just made a bigger cartridge

[Gregg]

Every company want bragging rights

"Coming soon! The .701 Remington express!"

[Broom]

Like when Remington brought out the .244 Rem the same year after Winchester brought on the .243 Win

[lapp]

Did they really?

[Aster]

They did. It was a neck down .257 Roberts.

The .244 Rem (6mm Remington) is basically the same as the .243 Win except for slightly larger case capacity.

It's still available, but never took off in the way the .243 Win did.

[Lyam]

"Coming soon! The .701 Remington express!"

But then you've got to worry about someone coming out with the .702 Nitro... It's a vicious circle....

[Carter]

Until someone gets sick of getting on-up'd and says

"Right, bugger it, THE 2.0 NITRO MAGNUM!!!!! PHWOAR!!!"

[Redwood]

They have that already... It's called artillery

[Grrzrr]

"Right, bugger it, THE 2.0 NITRO MAGNUM!!!!! PHWOAR!!!"

I feel sorry for the poor bastard who has to test fire that

[Monty]

I think that's the kind of test you do with the gun in a vice and you on the end of a long piece of string...

[bunnybuster]

Most of the big bore cartridges were developed by gunmakers [hence H & H,Rigby etc nametags] to sell thier firearms into the lucrative markets of India and Africa, when it was the thing for the well heeled to Safari and there was the market. Weatherby did the same marketing thing after WW II.

It was the arms race of a different kind, keeping ahead of the "Joneses".

Be Safe BB.

[Seconds]

I think that's the kind of test you do with the gun in a vice and you on the end of a long piece of string...

While you do that I'll be waiting in the car park

[Baz460]

I'm 63 and in the last 30 years have had a fascination with the Big Bores, to the point that last year on a trip to the States wanted to fire a 50 Cal Barrett, and a couple of Nitro Expresses, fired the Barrett, a 470 Nitro a 500 Nitro, along with a 500 Smith and Wesson Handgun.

The Nitro's compared to my 460 Weatherby, loaded with 124 grns of 4350,and a 500 grn projectile, well I reckon, they were like firing a 410 Shotgun, a very gentle push rather than a vicious kick, wanted to fire a 577 and a 600, but none were available, as for the 700..... well I just bought a cartridge for a Holland and Holland 700,( paid $200 for it) to add to my African collection, but would go back over ASAP there if the opportunity arose of getting a shot out of one.

In saying all that in defence of large cal's, seeing a scrub bull knocked clean off his feet from a big Bore Rifle is really something else.

Cheers, Baz

[banoob]

Nothing beats the US for shooters toys

[Lorgar]

Nothing beats the US for shooters toys

I certainly had fun in Vegas

[Walt68]

I used to have access to a 120mm, shooting out to 4000 metres is a lot of fun, but these days stick to a .338 WM for the big stuff.

[1290]

They did. It was a neck down .257 Roberts.

The .244 Rem (6mm Remington) is basically the same as the .243 Win except for slightly larger case capacity.

It's still available, but never took off in the way the .243 Win did.

Probably similar to the Betamax vs VHS argument, Beta meant to be technically superior, but the marketing won....
the 6mm Rem is larger in all case dimension, bit more case slope (better feeding?) same barrel spec but slightly larger-than-groove bullet so it will swage down rather than the groove sized 243 that simply engraves rifling; greater inherent accuracy as well as velocity in the 244 ?? who knows, doesnt matter, 244 is dead.

But why the 'powerful' chamberings? like asking why the industry keeps developing more and more and more powerful cars.... because the consumer want them.... ideally the increased efficiency in engine design mean that smaller and smaller engines could be marketed to deliver similar power and torque at vastly reduced fuel consumption, but WHO want a smaller engine?? Commodores at one stage had a 4cyl engine!!! developing probably all of what 25 horsepower yeah that went well, we know have 6L v8 developing ridiculous HP that, just like the ultramagnum rifle chambering; we dont NEED, but we WANT....

Back to the Nitro Express chamberings, Nitro represented the 'new' nitrocellulose propellant as opposed to the black powder, and the 'Express' was said to have been applied to such big boomers as they hit like an 'Express' Train..... sounds good to me!

[Combat_Wombat]

I've got a different theory

If creationists are to be believed humans and dinosaurs co existed thus creating a need for the big nitro cartridges... Think the .577 Tyranasoar is just a cool name? Think again

Solved haha

[Norton]

If creationists are to be believed humans and dinosaurs co existed thus creating a need for the big nitro cartridges... Think the .577 Tyranasoar is just a cool name? Think again

Solved haha

I am now totally convinced on creationism.

[ChicagoTed]

heres the .950 jdj
was made for a fun at the range
only 2 guns built so far i think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xohy9gWz7kk

[Hilux2003]

The reason the .700NE H&H exists is - H&H did a "final build" of the .600NE H&H rifles & all were numbered. They said we are not building any more, then up comes "someone with a lot of money" & wants a big gun. 1988 sees the .700 happen & from some sources those that paid big money for the "last of" the .600's actualy got a refund due to a 'bigger gun' being built.

The key is to look for NE meaning Nitro Express any earlier cartridge (see 1800's to early 1900's) was black powder, which is why all the cases are very straight sided (or nearly so), black does not work to it's best in bottle neck cases, where as nitro based will work in all case "designs" & a lot of the NE cases are a carry over from black powder days. Another givaway for NE cases is the "magnum" belt at the head end of the case, introduced to supposedly support the case with nitro powder but was & is 'just an advertising' item, brass cases work quite well without it in the big NE (late model) bottle neck stuff.

[MeccaOz]

heres the .950 jdj
was made for a fun at the range
only 2 guns built so far i think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xohy9gWz7kk

LOL I saw this, thought "No bunny will escape me now"

And Thanks for the history Lesson Hilux, I love hearing about old cartridges

[eeckle]

black does not work to it's best in bottle neck cases

Why's that? It bottled necks the explosion before it can get going or something does it?

Slows it down or holds it back?

[Hilux2003]

The only way to "regulate the burn" of black powder is to vary the granule size, because it all (pretty much) goes bang at the same time. Just think explosion - which is what black powder does - explode. Nitro stuff actually burns & does not explode. a controlled burn rate (by either physical design or chemicals used) varies the rate to suit pretty much all case sizes & designs.

eeckle - put it down to development & testing as to what works, over time.

As blackpowder explodes, you do not want too much restriction on the gas flow - so straight (or close) sided cases work best.

You can load BP into the latest bottle neck cases but you will not get the best performance "for that case/chambering" as it was designed & developed for & with nitro powders.

Also you will find the barrel a real prick to clean.