Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

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Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by Border_Bloke » 18 Jun 2022, 6:40 pm

I'm sure most would be aware that the US has just adopted the SIG Sauer MCX Spear in the 6.8x51mm "Sig Fury" cartridge (the one with a stainless steel base and brass case that runs at 80,000 psi pressure).

Looks like Australia will be looking for a new "close combat assault rifle" in 2024/25 and apparently Aquaterro is offering them the MCX spear (https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/06/11/sig-ngsw-for-australia/).

Nioa was announced as the prime contractor for first part of the system "tranche-1 sniper system and close combat system" last year https://www.nioaland159.com.au/. There is a bit more on the ADF web site https://www.defence.gov.au/project/lethality-system-tranche-1-sniper-system-and-close-combat-system.

The US adopted the 6.8x51 / SIG Fury to overcome body armor in "peer level adversaries" (ie Russia and China). The hunting load sits somewhere between the 270 Winchester and 270 WSM in velocity (but from a 16" barrel). It would be interesting if ADI start making the ammo here, although the only civilian rifle so far is the SIG Cross (and we can't have that in NSW because of the folding stock).
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by bigpete » 18 Jun 2022, 7:54 pm

Wouldn't that pretty much be a 260 Remington?
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by Border_Bloke » 18 Jun 2022, 8:45 pm

260 rem is 6.5mm (.264").
The new "6.8" is .277" (same as the 270 Win) - so I guess it's closest to the 270-08 (although it's running at 80,000 psi chamber pressure).

It supposedly produces 3000 ft/s with a 135gn bullet, and 2,950 ft/s with a 140gn bullet (and that's out of a 16" barrel).That's what a 270 Winchester will do from a 24" barrel, and about 200 ft/s faster than the 260 rem does from a 24" barrel.

There are some comparison photos with it and the 308 & 6.5 CM here https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/277-sig-fury-demystified/.
Ian McCollum did a video on the MCX rifle a couple of weeks ago https://youtu.be/MTZRCEh1Czg.

He mentions that all of the reviewers so far have used the brass-cased low power training ammunition (135gn bullet at 2,750 ft/s).
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by Larry » 19 Jun 2022, 10:35 am

My 308 runs a 155grn at 3020fps so that should do the same job given it is speed that defeats amour.
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by bigrich » 19 Jun 2022, 3:01 pm

so america's forgotten why nato was formed :P during WW2 supplies of ammo to the allies was a logistical nightmare . korean war was the same thing . different nations using different ammo . hence the adoption of the 7.62x51, used in civillian sporting rifles as the 308 win. millitary preasures are higher , but it's the same round essentially . same deal for 223 . all allies in battle could source ammo of each other during a conflict . supply problem solved

now america's gone and adopted a new round ,nato allies will have to follow suit . but i agree with why they did it . being able to peirce a opposing forces body armour is a advantage .

i actually considered a 270-308 wildcat for a rifle build a while ago . maybe the US millitary posts on enough gun too :lol:

as a oddball fact , WW2 british tanks machine guns were chambered in 7.92 BESA . which enabled them to use captured german 8x57 ammo :wtf:
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by mickb » 19 Jun 2022, 11:12 pm

If we are told to we will :)
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by wanneroo » 20 Jun 2022, 10:07 am

I wouldn't worry too much for now, the US military is going to continue to use 5.56 for decades to come. The 6.8x51 is going to be issued to the combat arms and anyone else that needs a rifle will get an M4 in 5.56. No reason for Australia to suddenly change.
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by Border_Bloke » 23 Jun 2022, 8:41 am

Larry wrote:My 308 runs a 155grn at 3020fps so that should do the same job given it is speed that defeats amour.


Out of a 308 Winchester? Or are you talking about some other 308 caliber cartridge? If it's a 308 Win, what is the barrel length?

I'm curious because 3020fps is what you would expect from a 24" barrel 30-06 using 150gn bullets, I would have though you'd need a 30" barrel to get that sort of velocity from a 308 Winchester.

The interesting thing with the 277 Fury / 6.8x51 cartridge is that the velocities are from a 16" barrel. You would expect to get around 3150fps to 3200fps from a 22" barrel. That's about 270 WSM 24" barrel velocities (although granted, it's probably loaded with fast ball powder to make it more efficient in a 16" barrel, which is what Winchester did with the early 308 loads).
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by geoff » 23 Jun 2022, 11:21 am

Can't wait to see the umpteen forum posts about "why won't anyone rebarrel my 308 to this new calibre? 80k psi is fine on an old SAAMI action"
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by Larry » 23 Jun 2022, 4:23 pm

First comment would have to be why would you make such a caliber? with 6.5 and 7mm already available a 6.8 *51 is just 0.2mm different from a 7-08 I dont see there being much difference. Yes I see they are going to push it to higher pressures but that could be done with the current 7-08.

As for my 308 I can get those velocities from a 28 inch barrel and my 30 inch quite easily the 28 inch is on a rem 700 action and no blow ups yet the other rifle has a custom action that is very robust.
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by Border_Bloke » 23 Jun 2022, 7:06 pm

Ahh, 28” barrel that explains it!

It’s not a new caliber- it uses .277” diameter bullets the same as the 270 Winchester, 270 WSM and 270 Weatherby magnum.

Edit: I just found out that the US government called for the same specs as the 270 WSM but from a 16” barrel.
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by JohnV » 23 Jun 2022, 7:42 pm

They might adopt the higher pressure version as a sniper round .
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by mickb » 26 Jun 2022, 6:08 pm

Larry wrote:First comment would have to be why would you make such a caliber? with 6.5 and 7mm already available a 6.8 *51 is just 0.2mm different from a 7-08 I dont see there being much difference. Yes I see they are going to push it to higher pressures but that could be done with the current 7-08.

As for my 308 I can get those velocities from a 28 inch barrel and my 30 inch quite easily the 28 inch is on a rem 700 action and no blow ups yet the other rifle has a custom action that is very robust.


Because army leaders, retired generals sitting on advisory boards in the private sector and CEO's for prime vendors all went to school together, and if defence doesnt keep overhauling its stuff a lot of them are out of a job. :
:D
Last edited by mickb on 26 Jun 2022, 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by northdude » 26 Jun 2022, 6:13 pm

If its all about defeating body armor Why not just keep existing cal and teach your men to head shoot...
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by SCJ429 » 26 Jun 2022, 7:52 pm

Larry wrote:First comment would have to be why would you make such a caliber? with 6.5 and 7mm already available a 6.8 *51 is just 0.2mm different from a 7-08 I dont see there being much difference. Yes I see they are going to push it to higher pressures but that could be done with the current 7-08.

As for my 308 I can get those velocities from a 28 inch barrel and my 30 inch quite easily the 28 inch is on a rem 700 action and no blow ups yet the other rifle has a custom action that is very robust.

My 308 can shoot a 220 grain bullet faster than 3,200 feet per second using a 30 inch barrel but it burns nearly 120 grains of powder to do it. Roy Weatherby finest case.
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by Billo » 26 Jun 2022, 9:21 pm

I would say no
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by delinquent pleb » 28 Jun 2022, 10:27 am

I'm doubtful that Australia will adopt it as a general purpose caliber. A possible exception being in a Designated Marksmen Rifle; that round would be a considerable step up from the 308W and would likely not be a substantial change in weight, form and function for those currently using .308 platforms

the interesting thing to note is that they have apparently adopted a training round that will run at normal pressures and launch a 135gn projectile at ~2700pfs./ The 80k PSI walloper will be allocated to deployed units. Additionally they are looking to polymer cases to manage the weight of this new cartridge on the poor grunt having to carry these things around.
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by JohnV » 01 Jul 2022, 4:46 pm

It's not so much about defeating body armor . A higher pressure round means more velocity and flatter trajectory and keeping the projectile super sonic at longer ranges .
Which all adds up to a better sniper round if the gun and ammo quality is up to it that is . You have to hit them first to penetrate any armor .
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by mickb » 01 Jul 2022, 7:28 pm

arms races are arms races but when I see defence advisors justify all these advances( and I am talking everything from small arms to fighting vehicles to major sea platforms) by bringing in the full parity enemy opponent scenario again( a russia or china type opponent) I wonder if they forgot the reason the major powers were stalemated from conventional war with each other by those things, what are they again...ummm big long things, can wipe out a city or the whole planet if they fire enough of them off....oh year NUCLEAR Weapons.
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by wanneroo » 02 Jul 2022, 12:37 am

Seems pretty soft shooting for what it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEf3ZlUkOCg
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by Biscuits » 16 Jul 2022, 6:06 am

Larry wrote:First comment would have to be why would you make such a caliber? with 6.5 and 7mm already available a 6.8 *51 is just 0.2mm different from a 7-08 I dont see there being much difference. Yes I see they are going to push it to higher pressures but that could be done with the current 7-08.

As for my 308 I can get those velocities from a 28 inch barrel and my 30 inch quite easily the 28 inch is on a rem 700 action and no blow ups yet the other rifle has a custom action that is very robust.


You cannot get the velocity of this new round out of a 16 inch barrel with a 308, 7mm-08 or any other current cartridge. You will never get it with a current cartridge and a short barrel, or your rifle will do a spontaneous unplanned disassembly.

If you want high muzzle velocity, downrange energy and a short barrel, it ain’t happening with established cartridges loaded within spec.
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by Oldbloke » 21 Sep 2022, 3:57 pm

wanneroo wrote:Seems pretty soft shooting for what it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEf3ZlUkOCg


About 5 minutes into the video he says he is not using military ammo. Normal brass ammo. Sooo, pressures would be far less.

I would expect it to kick like a mule at 80,000 psi. Wear out barrels pretty quick too.
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by Barbarian » 22 Sep 2022, 3:57 am

I'm calling it now - its going to be relegated to the same position as the SCAR-H and similar platforms.
IF the ADF Adopt it I think it'll be a mission specific piece of kit. With that chamber pressure its going to eat barrels, there is a reason they use non-hybrid cased ammo for training.
With the US also adopting the another lightened variant in the form of the SPEAR LT platform with some titanium parts in 5.56
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rnh9OCHI_ME

I do think issuing silencers as standard is a good practice now that sintered metal printing used in silencer construction is keeping gas out of the shooter's face.

At most I think Lithgow might start making a conventional rifle or carbine.
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by Oldbloke » 22 Sep 2022, 6:24 am

Yes, and then there is the NATO issue.
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by Border_Bloke » 24 Nov 2022, 2:12 pm

Well, It was announced in October that we are adopting the SIG MCX in 300BLK as the personal defense weapon.

Hopefully this is news to some - I've been busy lining my shed lately and haven't been on much lately.

Also part of the first "tranche", we are adopting:
    Australian manufactured ZU Bladeworx’s Double-Edged Fighting Knife,
    SIG Sauer P320 XCarry Pro pistol with reflex sights (becoming the first major conventional army to field red dot sights on their fleet of sidearms).
    The Benelli M3A1 semi-auto shotgun.
    The Accuracy International AX-SR - Long Range Sniper rifle as a multi-calibre system (.338 Lapua Magnum, .300 Norma Magnum and 7.62mm NATO).
    The Safran JIM Compact multispectral surveillance device and Steiner laser range-finding binoculars.
    The M107A1 rifle, manufactured by Barrett Firearms Manufacturing Incorporated

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/10/03/australian-army-selects-sig-sauer-p320-xcarry-pro-replace-browning-hipower/

https://www.australiandefence.com.au/defence/land/nioa-awarded-land-159-tranche-1
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by bladeracer » 24 Nov 2022, 2:36 pm

Mint! So we'll be seeing straight-pull converted F88's and F90's hitting the market soon then ;-)

Border_Bloke wrote:Well, It was announced in October that we are adopting the SIG MCX in 300BLK as the personal defense weapon.

Hopefully this is news to some - I've been busy lining my shed lately and haven't been on much lately.

Also part of the first "tranche", we are adopting:
    Australian manufactured ZU Bladeworx’s Double-Edged Fighting Knife,
    SIG Sauer P320 XCarry Pro pistol with reflex sights (becoming the first major conventional army to field red dot sights on their fleet of sidearms).
    The Benelli M3A1 semi-auto shotgun.
    The Accuracy International AX-SR - Long Range Sniper rifle as a multi-calibre system (.338 Lapua Magnum, .300 Norma Magnum and 7.62mm NATO).
    The Safran JIM Compact multispectral surveillance device and Steiner laser range-finding binoculars.
    The M107A1 rifle, manufactured by Barrett Firearms Manufacturing Incorporated

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/10/03/australian-army-selects-sig-sauer-p320-xcarry-pro-replace-browning-hipower/

https://www.australiandefence.com.au/defence/land/nioa-awarded-land-159-tranche-1
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by wanneroo » 25 Nov 2022, 2:18 am

Sounds like the regular troops will still be using the Steyr AUG clones for a while yet, a replacement to be announced in a few years. The 300 Blackout rifle to those in more specialized roles.
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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by Lazarus » 26 Nov 2022, 11:57 am

bladeracer wrote:Mint! So we'll be seeing straight-pull converted F88's and F90's hitting the market soon then ;-)


:lol: :lol: :clap: :drinks:

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Re: Will Australia adopt the 6.8x51mm ?

Post by bigrich » 26 Nov 2022, 12:36 pm

i just re read the firearms blog link , the us millitary is trialling a 338 norma mag lightweight medium machine gun ?!? :o :shock: jesus :?

i wonder if aqauaterra will sell me one :P
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