300 PRC mini review

Calibres, cartridges, ballistics tables and ammunition information.

300 PRC mini review

Post by Biscuits » 14 Nov 2022, 6:25 am

Mini review of a new to me round in a new rifle.

300 PRC in a Bergara Wilderness HMR.

Factory Hornady 225 ELDM.

Summary:
Epic. My first 300 Magnum.
Shakes rails and scope ring screws loose if you don't locktite them - I wasted two boxs of ammo when my scope rings came loose leading to random 1 millrad changes in point of impact for the same aiming point. This is despite me tightening the screws to spec with a torque wrench, but initially without locktite.

The bullets are very slippery. Ballistic app predicts the bullet is still supersonic at a mile and I used it at a mile for a first round hit on a 1 metre plate, with follow 3 further hits out of about 10 fired on a 10-inch round plate. Leading up to the 1-mile, I did a range of plates starting at 450 yards, with the plate before the mile at 1200 yards. The standard deviation on muzzle velocity was around 15fps, which explains getting only 3 out of 10 on the 10-inch mile plate. The variation in muzzle velocity gave vertical stringing. Impacts were visible through the scope, but I had a spotter who was able to call out more precise corrections on the 10-inch and the other shorter distances than I was able to see.

Muzzle velocity with 26 inch barrel was 2853fps. Hoping it will increase a bit and the standard deviation will go down a bit once the rifle settles in.

Aside from the usual distance to target, density altitude and wind, the ballistic solution with Strelok used spin drift, coriolis effect, aerodynamic jump and powder temperature.
Biscuits
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 130
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by SCJ429 » 14 Nov 2022, 7:44 pm

An SD of 15 is excellent from factory ammo. What makes you think it will improve after you fire a few more shots? You are burning a lot of powder, low ES and SD numbers are hard to make from big cases. What was your sample size for your SD.?
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3232
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by Biscuits » 14 Nov 2022, 8:48 pm

^ I am thinking that as the barrel wears in, the amount of internal fouling will reach a steady state value (cleaning excepted) and SD should go down and MV should plateau. I also use factory 6.5 Creedmoor 147 ELDMs which have a single digit SD.

It has now had about 150 rounds through it. MV is up about 40fps between the first through rounds through it and rounds (approx) 90 to 110. I did not chrono the last 40-ish rounds, for the reason below.

SD based on around 20 rounds and I have disregarded the initial SD/MV figures on the first rounds 18 rounds fired at a earlier, separate session on a 100 yard range.

My chrono (Labradar) was not useable at the firing point when the wind picked up to ca. 25mph due to the risk of it being blown over and it frequently getting false triggers off long grass in front of the firing point. I was also short on daylight when I moved to the 1-mile firing point, so did not have the time to even attempt to use the chrono there.
Biscuits
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 130
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by in2anity » 15 Nov 2022, 8:56 am

Aim for sub 1moa, continous 10shot strings out to 1000. That's entry level, for F-open (what 300 PRC falls under). Ideally, many should be going into 1/2moa, for the extra decimals. Keep your eye on the mirage, between shots, and wait when you need to. If the mirage is absent, you'll need to watch the flags for change in erectness and angle, instead.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3083
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by SCJ429 » 15 Nov 2022, 7:13 pm

I am guessing you are using a hand lapped custom barrel on your action and at 150, it will be shooting the best it will ever shoot. What are the group's like with your SD at 15 fps? Is your Creedmoor shooting in the 2s with its low SD? I like low ES and SD numbers but they have to go with groups in the low 2s or preferably the 1s. I have a 300/378 that could shoot in the 2s but the SD was over 30, who cares when it shoots just over an inch at 500. Only did that once but that is probably more down to me.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3232
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by Biscuits » 15 Nov 2022, 7:33 pm

I don’t really shoot groups other than to zero - so not at 100 and not at 1000 and not F-class. Just not my thing. I prefer steel plates at varying ranges; in this case up to a mile. Sometimes I’ll do groups at 1000 as this is easier logistically than random steel plates, but when I do that I use my 308 due to lower match ammunition cost compared to the 6.5 and .300.

The 300 PRC grouped about 0.5 MoA when I zeroed it. It’s not custom - regular factory rifle. I did take it out of the stock after purchase, check for any unwanted contact points with the barrel and check the torque on all the screws though.
Biscuits
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 130
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by SCJ429 » 15 Nov 2022, 7:58 pm

When my 338/378 was not allowed at the range I would shoot at rocks at long range on a farm. Was heaps of fun competing with a mate with his 300 Win Mag. Rebarrelled in 300/378 to be more friendly. You still need a load that shoots well. My advice is to use a bullet not made by Hornady. Try a Sierra or Berger.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3232
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by in2anity » 16 Nov 2022, 12:18 pm

Those poor rocks... what did they ever do to you? But yeah, good tip regarding Sierra And Berger. Berger's the most popular under NRAA, followed closely by Sierra. Nobody serious uses Hornady. Although in saying that, I've cleaned the target before using Hornady match pills - probs a largely unfounded bias away for the red boxes...
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3083
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by Biscuits » 16 Nov 2022, 1:08 pm

Hornady’s heavy ELDMs have higher ballistic coefficients than their Sierra and particularly Berger equivalents. They stay supersonic for longer. As it was, I was still supersonic at a mile. Had it been Bergers, I would have been subsonic or transonic. Berger may well have better QA than Hornady and have lower bullet to bullet BC variation, but this comes at the expense of a shorter supersonic range.

Maybe Hornady is not used for King of 2 Miles, but people using that are shooting 37XCs or .416, not 300 PRC.

As it was, with the Hornady’s it was 3 impacts out of 10 on a 0.6MoA (10-inch) target at a mile, in a 25mph wind, with the remaining 7 missing by a target width. So 10 impacts within a 1.8MoA cone, with a factory rifle and factory ammo, at a mile in a 25mph wind. With the misses being windage. What would different bullets bring me which the ELDMs don’t?
Biscuits
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 130
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by in2anity » 16 Nov 2022, 2:06 pm

Biscuits wrote: What would different bullets bring me which the ELDMs don’t?

Quite simply, bullet consistency. Don't matter how high that value is, if the bullets aren't uniform, the group will suffer. Like i said, if you pay attention to the wind, you can shoot a better group, regardless of that "holy grail" BC value that every cool new shooter focuses so intently on. The best TR shooters, who are constantly watching the mirage and flags, are grouping into 1moa from the sling, with a humble 155.5gr 308 bullet. Those TR bullet's BC is only around 0.5... justsayin.

Are Hornady really that much worse in their uniformity? I don't know I've never measured them - but they are notably cheaper than the Bergers and Sierras. Where there's smoke there's generally fire :unknown:
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3083
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by bladeracer » 16 Nov 2022, 4:21 pm

in2anity wrote:
Biscuits wrote: What would different bullets bring me which the ELDMs don’t?


Quite simply, bullet consistency. Don't matter how high that value is, if the bullets aren't uniform, the group will suffer. Like i said, if you pay attention to the wind, you can shoot a better group, regardless of that "holy grail" BC value that every cool new shooter focuses so intently on. The best TR shooters, who are constantly watching the mirage and flags, are grouping into 1moa from the sling, with a humble 155.5gr 308 bullet. Those TR bullet's BC is only around 0.5... justsayin.

Are Hornady really that much worse in their uniformity? I don't know I've never measured them - but they are notably cheaper than the Bergers and Sierras. Where there's smoke there's generally fire :unknown:


I'd rather use a bullet that's good enough that I know I can get more of when I need them than build an awesome load only to discover it's a two-year wait until I can get more of them. I'm still waiting on .303 174gn SMK's with no expected supply date known, glad I didn't bother doing load development with them.

Yep, wind read is far more important than knocking another quarter-minute off the group size.

If price dictated quality why aren't you using brass and copper bullets instead of jacketed lead? I've got a few TSX and TTSX bullets now in different calibres, but they're too expensive to sling them at the hillside outside of load development :-)
I agree with Biscuits, the ELDM's work just fine, they're cheap, and they're generally readily available. If you're chasing trophies maybe spend some hours weight and ogive batching them.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12853
Victoria

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by Wyliecoyote » 16 Nov 2022, 5:32 pm

With Hornady bullets it has always been about the batch. Somewhat similar with Bergers if you ever shot Fly or any long range competition. Sierras were always more consistent from batch to batch.
If you're shooting plate at some random range then the Hornady works fine. But if you're after small groups and scores, Sierra and Berger are what virtually everybody uses. Not seen a Hornady that worked since the early poly tipped 162 grain 7mm Amax from the late 90s.
To clarify why is simple. A quarter inch group at a 100 yards quickly becomes a 15 or 20 inch group at a thousand yards just simply from BC extreme spread. Velocity ES always plays its part, but a BC spread of 5 to 7%, or in some instances, 10%, destroys groups at longer ranges. Sierra, Berger and all custom bullet makers use the one point up die for their batch lots. Nosler and Hornady don't. No two point up dies are ever the same no matter who made them. You can batch Hornady bullets using ogive form gauges. Tedious but it can sort them into some sense. The problems i saw with Hornady Amax and ELDM in the 30 cal 208 was you might get some uniform ogive form batches but they still shot like crap. I then discovered that the boatails were at the same random mercy of multiple core seating dies from where the bullets went randomly to a battery of point up dies. Getting two bullets from the line that had the same jacket drawn from one set of dies, then to the same core seater and finally the point up die is down to blind luck. There is a reason why Sierra and Berger cost more and why that beyond plate and the odd Fclass match, Hornady is not seen on winners lists.
Wyliecoyote
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 151
Queensland

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by SCJ429 » 16 Nov 2022, 8:34 pm

A better bullet will gives you more hits on target. I have stuffed around with ELDM trying to get them to shoot. You may have more luck than me...
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3232
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by SCJ429 » 16 Nov 2022, 8:54 pm

bladeracer wrote:
I'd rather use a bullet that's good enough that I know I can get more of when I need them than build an awesome load only to discover it's a two-year wait until I can get more of them. I'm still waiting on .303 174gn SMK's with no expected supply date known, glad I didn't bother doing load development with them.

Yep, wind read is far more important than knocking another quarter-minute off the group size.

If price dictated quality why aren't you using brass and copper bullets instead of jacketed lead? I've got a few TSX and TTSX bullets now in different calibres, but they're too expensive to sling them at the hillside outside of load development :-)
I agree with Biscuits, the ELDM's work just fine, they're cheap, and they're generally readily available. If you're chasing trophies maybe spend some hours weight and ogive batching them.

A popular Queensland fun shop is advertising 174 gr SMK, I am surprised you cannot get them.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3232
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by bladeracer » 16 Nov 2022, 9:20 pm

SCJ429 wrote:A popular Queensland fun shop is advertising 174 gr SMK, I am surprised you cannot get them.


If you mean Cleaver they don't have stock. If you find anybody that has actual stock let me know.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12853
Victoria

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by in2anity » 17 Nov 2022, 7:54 am

bladeracer wrote:
I'd rather use a bullet that's good enough that I know I can get more of when I need them than build an awesome load only to discover it's a two-year wait until I can get more of them. I'm still waiting on .303 174gn SMK's with no expected supply date known, glad I didn't bother doing load development with them.

Yep, wind read is far more important than knocking another quarter-minute off the group size.

If price dictated quality why aren't you using brass and copper bullets instead of jacketed lead? I've got a few TSX and TTSX bullets now in different calibres, but they're too expensive to sling them at the hillside outside of load development :-)
I agree with Biscuits, the ELDM's work just fine, they're cheap, and they're generally readily available. If you're chasing trophies maybe spend some hours weight and ogive batching them.


If he's happy with Hornady, then he should stay on Hornady. No arguments there. But he was dissatisfied with the verticality of the 1000yd group. We were just informing him that the consensus around Hornady from those competing at the highest level, is that they aren't as consistent as Berger or Sierra. Take it or leave it.

My advice about consistently hitting a 1000yd target a-la front-rest cross-arm style; a) observe the wind carefully and exercise due patience b) reload berger projectiles c) use quality brass d) anneal e) address runout problems with aging brass
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3083
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by Wyliecoyote » 17 Nov 2022, 5:10 pm

A bit of a caviat to my last post. This weekend is the Canberra Queens. A certain well known shooter who won everything there was to win at the Melbourne Fly (180 SMKs and Berger 105s) a couple of weeks ago is competing in F Open with his 284 and 166 grain A tips. Health holding i suspect he should do well if not win it again. The A Tips are a completely different ball game as is their price. I am assured that testing on the ICC has shown incredible consistency to the point not seen on many bullets from any manufacturer or custom bullet maker with variance in the low single units. Something i haven't seen since the #2012 103 6mm Copperheads. Going off the cost at around double the ELDM price, my money is on these bullets being run off the one set of dies.
Wyliecoyote
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 151
Queensland

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by Biscuits » 17 Nov 2022, 8:34 pm

I bought that rifle to shoot a mile to 2 kilometres on variable terrain with uneven ground, uneven wind and no wind flags, so that is not the same as shooting groups in F-class at typically 1000 yards on a range with wind flags. A 308 is still supersonic at 1000 yards. The 300 PRC is supersonic at a mile with Hornady ELDMs. It would not be supersonic with Bergers.

Bryan Litz of Applied Ballistics has measured bullet to bullet BCs and Bergers are more consistent than Hornady, but not by much. A typical ELDM varies by a bit over 1% in measured, doppler radar verified BCs.

If the bullet has a high BC, which ELDMs do, it will have a shorter time of flight and be less affected by wind. I’m quite happy with a 1.8MoA group at a mile. Your group MoA (not just linear size) goes up with distance for any uncorrected wind variation so my 1.8 MoA at a mile is equivalent to 1 MoA at 1000 yards.

Plus at Bladeracer pointed out, you can actually go out and buy ELDMs rather than wait until next year for something theoretically better.
Biscuits
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 130
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by Wyliecoyote » 21 Nov 2022, 10:27 am

https://bergerbullets.com/nobsbc/bc-var ... ong-range/


Some years ago a random batch of 155 SMKS were shot through multiple doppler radars at different ranges. By random i mean the tester didn't get a batch sent to him, he went and bought them from a store. The average BC variation was 7%.over 99 bullets. One bullet was omitted that had a BC of over 0.500. When the next box was meplat cut the variation was brought down to 2% but the overall BC was lower. Sometime later unsurprisingly Sierra released their 155s meplat cut and pointed.
Berger made claims, and still do, that no long range shooter could match in real world testing of store bought projectiles. I have no doubt batches of bullets of very low variation do exist, i have had them, but they are rare and why people go an endless search for certain batch lots. Be careful of the hype and of the former employee of any bullet manufacturer.
BTW, linear in shooting terms does not exist. It can only exist in mathematical terms but never in real world.
Wyliecoyote
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 151
Queensland

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by SCJ429 » 21 Nov 2022, 6:32 pm

Biscuits wrote:I bought that rifle to shoot a mile to 2 kilometres on variable terrain with uneven ground, uneven wind and no wind flags, so that is not the same as shooting groups in F-class at typically 1000 yards on a range with wind flags. A 308 is still supersonic at 1000 yards. The 300 PRC is supersonic at a mile with Hornady ELDMs. It would not be supersonic with Bergers.

Bryan Litz of Applied Ballistics has measured bullet to bullet BCs and Bergers are more consistent than Hornady, but not by much. A typical ELDM varies by a bit over 1% in measured, doppler radar verified BCs.

If the bullet has a high BC, which ELDMs do, it will have a shorter time of flight and be less affected by wind. I’m quite happy with a 1.8MoA group at a mile. Your group MoA (not just linear size) goes up with distance for any uncorrected wind variation so my 1.8 MoA at a mile is equivalent to 1 MoA at 1000 yards.

Plus at Bladeracer pointed out, you can actually go out and buy ELDMs rather than wait until next year for something theoretically better.

I know you are not loading and rely on factory offerings but for a person who appears to love the paper figures of the ELDM I am sure that you know that both Sierra and Berger both offer bullets that offer a better BC than what you are using. The 230 grain SMK and the Berger 245 Hybrid offer a better BC which give you a shorter flight time and buck the wind. The big plus is the consistency of their bullets. The great bit is you are having a go and enjoying some long range shooting. Good on you, cheers.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3232
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by bladeracer » 21 Nov 2022, 6:45 pm

SCJ429 wrote:I know you are not loading and rely on factory offerings but for a person who appears to love the paper figures of the ELDM I am sure that you know that both Sierra and Berger both offer bullets that offer a better BC than what you are using. The 230 grain SMK and the Berger 245 Hybrid offer a better BC which give you a shorter flight time and buck the wind. The big plus is the consistency of their bullets. The great bit is you are having a go and enjoying some long range shooting. Good on you, cheers.


Does this rifle come with a twist-rate that will run either of those bullets?
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12853
Victoria

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by Wyliecoyote » 21 Nov 2022, 7:19 pm

https://bergerbullets.com/product/30-ca ... le-bullet/

Bergara 300 PRC rifle has a twist of 1 in 9 which will stabilise the pills mentioned.

https://www.rifleshootermag.com/editori ... iew/386329
Wyliecoyote
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 151
Queensland

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by SCJ429 » 22 Nov 2022, 7:24 am

If he is shooting 225s I am sure it will shoot the 230 SMK, as for the Berger, only one way to find out. Neither of these bullets have plastic tips and could be shorter than the ELDM.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3232
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by in2anity » 22 Nov 2022, 7:31 am

Pretty sure he wants to stick to hornady
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3083
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by Biscuits » 22 Nov 2022, 12:11 pm

Only Hornady makes 300 PRC factory ammo. Once I’ve burned through my 400 rounds of factory which I bought with the rifle, I’ll consider another bullet for reloading. But given the factory ammo is performing, I may end up just buying more factory.

If < MoA and low MV SD is coming out of factory ammo, I’d need another reason like more muzzle velocity to reload.
Biscuits
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 130
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by bladeracer » 22 Nov 2022, 12:50 pm

Biscuits wrote:Only Hornady makes 300 PRC factory ammo. Once I’ve burned through my 400 rounds of factory which I bought with the rifle, I’ll consider another bullet for reloading. But given the factory ammo is performing, I may end up just buying more factory.

If < MoA and low MV SD is coming out of factory ammo, I’d need another reason like more muzzle velocity to reload.


I'd be reloading for cost and so I would never be reliant on ammo supply.
What are you paying for this ammo nowadays?
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12853
Victoria

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by SCJ429 » 22 Nov 2022, 6:49 pm

I would hate to think what factory reloads cost. A good reason to reload is you can choose your brass. I bet you can guess how many guys use Hornady brass in any sort of competition.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3232
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by SCJ429 » 22 Nov 2022, 6:56 pm

If it was $120 for a box of 20 then 400 rounds would cost $2,400. Makes my 300/378 seem positively economical.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3232
New South Wales

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by bladeracer » 22 Nov 2022, 7:26 pm

SCJ429 wrote:If it was $120 for a box of 20 then 400 rounds would cost $2,400. Makes my 300/378 seem positively economical.


I did have a look around but didn't find .300PRC anywhere, it doesn't strike me as something you're likely to find in most shops.
I'd buy 1000 bullets and a couple hundred cases and make my own ammo. If I wanted to get serious I'd have enough bullets on hand to spend a few hours batching them by weight, lengths, concentricity and such.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12853
Victoria

Re: 300 PRC mini review

Post by Biscuits » 22 Nov 2022, 11:41 pm

SCJ429 wrote:If it was $120 for a box of 20 then 400 rounds would cost $2,400. Makes my 300/378 seem positively economical.


Is that the .30-378 Weatherby? What bullets are coming out the end and how fast are they going?
Biscuits
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 130
New South Wales

Next

Back to top
 
Return to Calibres, cartridges and ballistics