My reduced load shoots to the left

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My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by MtnMan » 30 Apr 2023, 6:15 pm

I have been playing with a reduced load in my .222rem which consists of 20gr of AR2206H (H4895 in American speak) behind a 40gr JHP used in .22wmr ammo, for 2550fps. I bought 250 of these bullets loose.

Groups nicely, with a 3 shot group of about 3/4" at about 80m but it's 4" left of where my standard full power load shoots. Full power load is 22.8gr of AR2206H behind the Sierra #1330 50gr soft point for 2950fps.

Any reason these would shoot so far left? Just barrel harmonics? it can be accounted for but it would be nice if it shot the same windage.
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by No1_49er » 30 Apr 2023, 7:01 pm

I'd suggest barrel harmonics.
Try clamping a weight (anything, really) to the barrel in some relatively immovable way. See if that alters anything.
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by bladeracer » 30 Apr 2023, 7:04 pm

MtnMan wrote:I have been playing with a reduced load in my .222rem which consists of 20gr of AR2206H (H4895 in American speak) behind a 40gr JHP used in .22wmr ammo, for 2550fps. I bought 250 of these bullets loose.

Groups nicely, with a 3 shot group of about 3/4" at about 80m but it's 4" left of where my standard full power load shoots. Full power load is 22.8gr of AR2206H behind the Sierra #1330 50gr soft point for 2950fps.

Any reason these would shoot so far left? Just barrel harmonics? it can be accounted for but it would be nice if it shot the same windage.


Harmonics I would guess, it happens. 100mm to the side at 80m is a lot in my experience. I generally use reduced loads at reduced ranges so if there is a difference in point of impact it's pretty small. You may be able to tweak the velocity to get it closer to your normal windage zero. 2550fps is close to a Hornet load. If you're hunting with it I would just hold off for it, or drop it back under 2000fps and see where it shoots then.
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by JohnV » 30 Apr 2023, 7:31 pm

It could be harmonics and it could be less spin drift because it not being driven as hard . Could also be a combination of things . Could also be in-bore yaw because the bullet is short and may be jumping further to the lands and getting out of line as it enters the bore . 40 grain thin jacket rimfire bullet at 2550 fps could also be an issue . It was not designed to be pushed that hard .
If it's grouping ok then the jacket must be holding up ok one would think .
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by animalpest » 30 Apr 2023, 8:02 pm

The 40gr bullet from the .22mag will hold up well at that speed. Many, many shooters used them in .22 Hornets and they worked well (including for me).

It really isn't unusual for different bullets and different loads to shoot to a different point of impact and it can be quite marked. Hence we always resight rifles when any ammo components change.
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by animalpest » 30 Apr 2023, 8:07 pm

Two different loads, same rifle
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by MtnMan » 30 Apr 2023, 8:39 pm

That's like what I have. nice groups, just not in the same place.
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by animalpest » 30 Apr 2023, 9:11 pm

Yep, it's normal. Contrary to what people will tell you, it is common. Some rifles and calibres are less prone to it but don't stress.

The target I posted was with a 375 H&H, which everyone tells you will shoot different bullet weights very close. Yeah..no
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by Oldbloke » 01 May 2023, 1:54 am

animalpest wrote:The 40gr bullet from the .22mag will hold up well at that speed. Many, many shooters used them in .22 Hornets and they worked well (including for me).

It really isn't unusual for different bullets and different loads to shoot to a different point of impact and it can be quite marked. Hence we always resight rifles when any ammo components change.


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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by MtnMan » 01 May 2023, 6:31 am

ADI data suggests 23gr of AR2208 as a starting load. I'm going to try that and see what happens. I'm starting to think that chasing a reduced load is an act in futility. Took my a while to realize that these .22wmr bullets are about the only thing that will expand at the lower velocity. But now find that POI is so different. If it was just elevation it wouldn't bother me.

I'll try a few starting loads and work up and see if the windage error changes. I have some win748 powder to try too.
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by straightshooter » 01 May 2023, 7:26 am

Mtnman
Much of the change in POI will be will be related to changed recoil characteristics not just the velocity of the various loads as well as how you grip the rifle.
Since you will be using this combination for hunting it should be tested in a manner that simulates how it will be used when hunting if you want a reliable POI.
When testing loads try to consistently grip the rifle with your hand under the forearm, supported by the sandbag and your elbow on the bench replicating as close as possible as to how you would hold the rifle when shooting offhand.
I had plenty of success using 22WMR projectiles in my 223 both soft point and FMJ when it had a 1 in 12" twist barrel but when I changed to a 1 in 9" barrel the soft point projectiles disintegrated and disappeared in flight. Probably due to core separation at the highish velocity.
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by Oldbloke » 01 May 2023, 7:28 am

Mntman.
I use AS50N for reduced loads. If you have some similar powder perhaps try that. You can use most shotgun powders. Mine just shoot low.
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by bladeracer » 01 May 2023, 10:46 am

MtnMan wrote:ADI data suggests 23gr of AR2208 as a starting load. I'm going to try that and see what happens. I'm starting to think that chasing a reduced load is an act in futility. Took my a while to realize that these .22wmr bullets are about the only thing that will expand at the lower velocity. But now find that POI is so different. If it was just elevation it wouldn't bother me.

I'll try a few starting loads and work up and see if the windage error changes. I have some win748 powder to try too.


The WMR bullet will expand at much lower velocity than 2500fps, probably down to around the 1600fps region. Similarly varmint bullets like Blitzking, TNT, BT and VMax. For the amount of difference you're seeing in windage zero I would guess you happen to have settled on a 50gn load that shoots about as far right as possible, and a 40gn load that shoots as far left as possible. Ideally you could tweak both velocities until they fall closer together, but it's likely you want to stay with your hotter load for its accuracy, so tweak the reduced load's velocity and see if you can tighten it up. With a WMR bullet I would try loading it around its designed velocity of 1800-1900fps and see how that goes.
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by northdude » 01 May 2023, 2:53 pm

Its not the right load then
22 hornets and most things 6.5
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by northdude » 01 May 2023, 2:54 pm

Ive got some of those projectiles. They are awesome in the 22 hornet
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by JohnV » 01 May 2023, 5:15 pm

We know it's common we are just trying work out why it's so far left .
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by animalpest » 01 May 2023, 5:48 pm

Does any other bullet used in reduced loads in that rifle shoot to the left?
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by MtnMan » 01 May 2023, 6:29 pm

Yeah, I have the speer 46gr flat nose bullet that shoots to the left too.
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by MtnMan » 04 May 2023, 6:15 pm

Ok, I tried 23gr of AR2208 and the group was great and shot 2" left at 100m. 24gr the group opened up.

24.5gr of Win748 had one flyer and also shot about the same to the left.

will try 23.5gr of AR2206H next. That's almost as much as what will fit in the case. Listed max is 25gr but there is no way that will fit in the case.

Might just be that these .22mag bullets shot to the left for whatever reason.

yet to do the same with the speer 46gr flat nose I have. I'm trying to find a velocity high enough to get them to be more expansive. at the moment at 2550fps they are lacking. No 'bang flop' effect.

Think I'm abandoning the idea of reduced loads. The only bullet I've found that will expand at reduced load velocity are the .22mag JHP's but they are hard to get (once this supply I have runs out I expect to never be able to get them again) and shoot to the left.
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by Oldbloke » 04 May 2023, 6:23 pm

So,,,no expert, but I'm guessing its a bedding issue.

Also, my squib load doing about 2100fps 55gr bullets bang flop,, up to about 80 yards. After that I don't know. Shoot abt 2" below the normal load. (223)

Consider useing same bullets as normal, reduce the load and using a sharp knife nip the tip off.
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by bladeracer » 04 May 2023, 7:06 pm

MtnMan wrote:Ok, I tried 23gr of AR2208 and the group was great and shot 2" left at 100m. 24gr the group opened up.

24.5gr of Win748 had one flyer and also shot about the same to the left.

will try 23.5gr of AR2206H next. That's almost as much as what will fit in the case. Listed max is 25gr but there is no way that will fit in the case.

Might just be that these .22mag bullets shot to the left for whatever reason.

yet to do the same with the speer 46gr flat nose I have. I'm trying to find a velocity high enough to get them to be more expansive. at the moment at 2550fps they are lacking. No 'bang flop' effect.

Think I'm abandoning the idea of reduced loads. The only bullet I've found that will expand at reduced load velocity are the .22mag JHP's but they are hard to get (once this supply I have runs out I expect to never be able to get them again) and shoot to the left.


The 46gn FN _must_ be expanding fine at that sort of velocity, perhaps you're pushing them too hard and they're blowing up in the surface without penetrating deep enough? If you have a tight twist rate, like 8", that can cause the bullet to come apart faster as well. That would be unusual for a .222Rem though.
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by MtnMan » 04 May 2023, 7:21 pm

Getting pass thrus on foxes with exit no bigger than my little finger with the 46gr FN.
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by Oldbloke » 04 May 2023, 7:51 pm

MtnMan wrote:Getting pass thrus on foxes with exit no bigger than my little finger with the 46gr FN.


Is that front to rear?
Bang flops?

Barrel length in inches pls ?
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by bladeracer » 04 May 2023, 8:32 pm

MtnMan wrote:Getting pass thrus on foxes with exit no bigger than my little finger with the 46gr FN.


That's not really unexpected for reduced loads, but I wouldn't consider a 46gn bullet at 2550fps to be "reduced" at all. I have these bullets but have never tried them on live targets. It sounds like they're acting much like subsonic .22LR, in which case brain shots only would be the goal. Are these results at close-range? They have atrocious BC so even launched at 2550fps they're only doing 1650fps at 100m, which is probably about their limit for deformation. I would be surprised if they'll deform much further than maybe 100m or so max.

The website does say controlled expansion rather than explosive to minimise pelt damage so perhaps they do have a very hard jacket?
https://www.speer.com/bullets/rifle_bullets/varmint_soft_point_bullet/19-1024.html
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by MtnMan » 04 May 2023, 8:43 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
MtnMan wrote:Getting pass thrus on foxes with exit no bigger than my little finger with the 46gr FN.


Is that front to rear?
Bang flops?

Barrel length in inches pls ?


Side on shot.
bang flop means dead on the spot. not running away to die and maybe lost in the bush.
22" barrel to the bolt face
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by MtnMan » 04 May 2023, 8:47 pm

bladeracer wrote:
MtnMan wrote:Getting pass thrus on foxes with exit no bigger than my little finger with the 46gr FN.


That's not really unexpected for reduced loads, but I wouldn't consider a 46gn bullet at 2550fps to be "reduced" at all. I have these bullets but have never tried them on live targets. It sounds like they're acting much like subsonic .22LR, in which case brain shots only would be the goal. Are these results at close-range? They have atrocious BC so even launched at 2550fps they're only doing 1650fps at 100m, which is probably about their limit for deformation. I would be surprised if they'll deform much further than maybe 100m or so max.

The website does say controlled expansion rather than explosive to minimise pelt damage so perhaps they do have a very hard jacket?
https://www.speer.com/bullets/rifle_bullets/varmint_soft_point_bullet/19-1024.html


That velocity is actually bang on a 218 Bee factory load for which this bullet is actually made. Flat nose for tubular magazine lever actions popular in 218 bee chamberings. It's the ADI data starting load, so yes, not exactly reduced.
getting pass thru inside 50m. minimal expansion unless major bone is hit.
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by Oldbloke » 04 May 2023, 9:14 pm

So,, I just ran the data through GRT. GRT agrees with you 2636fps for a 45gr bullet. GMF. Should all work fine. That's if I got it right

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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by MtnMan » 05 May 2023, 7:50 am

23.5gr of AR2206H- group size opened up but windage is good. I might come back from this and see what happens. Be great if windage was good and the group closed up.
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by bladeracer » 05 May 2023, 1:45 pm

MtnMan wrote:That velocity is actually bang on a 218 Bee factory load for which this bullet is actually made. Flat nose for tubular magazine lever actions popular in 218 bee chamberings. It's the ADI data starting load, so yes, not exactly reduced.
getting pass thru inside 50m. minimal expansion unless major bone is hit.


I can only think that must be the design of the bullet then. FMJ were often used to minimise "pelt damage" so perhaps this is designed along similar lines.
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Re: My reduced load shoots to the left

Post by Oldbloke » 05 May 2023, 3:09 pm

When it comes to the performance of bullets on game it's hard to predict.
There are too many variables, speed, game size, bone or no bone.
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