Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

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Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by MeccaOz » 29 Jun 2014, 4:49 pm

Hey folks, anyone tried the 60gn Aguila .22LR ammo ? Or even seen it in Australia ? I wouldnt mind giving it a go, I'm assuming it would have to be subsonic, so it might work a little better around livestock.

EDIT: Come to think of it, what is the chance it would stabilise in a 1:16 twist anyways ???
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Re: Aguila

Post by Chronos » 29 Jun 2014, 4:53 pm

Haven't heard of it nor seen it in any of the Sydney shops

You'd want to make sure your .22 had a fast twist rate, not slow like an anschutz.

Good luck, be sure to report back if you get some to try

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Re: Aguila

Post by MeccaOz » 29 Jun 2014, 4:53 pm

Chronos wrote:Haven't heard of it nor seen it in any of the Sydney shops

You'd want to make sure your .22 had a fast twist rate, not slow like an anschutz.

Good luck, be sure to report back if you get some to try

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LOl ya beat me to it mate :lol:
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Re: Aguila

Post by Chronos » 29 Jun 2014, 5:03 pm

Ha ha. I'm just glad in not the only one who's aware of it. :lol:

I'll look up some numbers later but rimfire twist rates is something that's often overlooked. I think my old anschutz 54 match had somethink like a 1:18" twist. Great for small bore legal subsonic match ammo, not so great with something like a 60gr pill

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Re: Aguila

Post by MeccaOz » 29 Jun 2014, 5:16 pm

Your on the ball mate, i'll give ya that :)
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Re: Aguila

Post by shazz » 02 Jul 2014, 3:31 pm

I'm missing something obviously... What's the problem with the Anschutz barrel twist?

I thought Anschutz was supposed to be the bee's knee's.
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Re: Aguila

Post by Bills Shed » 02 Jul 2014, 10:11 pm

shazz wrote:I'm missing something obviously... What's the problem with the Anschutz barrel twist?

I thought Anschutz was supposed to be the bee's knee's.


Nothing wrong with the Anschutz, the conversation was in reference to projectile weight and rate of twist to stabilise it.

A 60 grain pill out of a LR, why would you do it. Something new for the sake of change?

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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by Chronos » 03 Jul 2014, 11:03 am

Yeah like bill said above nothing wrong with Anschutz, just be wary of changing things like chasing ammo that's loaded with 50% more lead than most .22's were designed to shoot.

Without doing any research I'd guess the ammo you're talking about would be designed to deliver more energy from a sub sonic round, probably through a semi auto suppressed rifle. No doubt with a suitable twist rate.

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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by bigfellascott » 04 Jul 2014, 9:14 am

I reckon it would have a trajectory like a bloody rainbow - I can't see any point in using it other than to see what its like.
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Re: Aguila

Post by shazz » 07 Jul 2014, 11:17 am

Bills Shed wrote:Nothing wrong with the Anschutz, the conversation was in reference to projectile weight and rate of twist to stabilise it.

A 60 grain pill out of a LR...


Ah of course, I'm with you know.
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by Kater » 07 Jul 2014, 11:22 am

Chronos wrote:Without doing any research I'd guess the ammo you're talking about would be designed to deliver more energy from a sub sonic round


bigfellascott wrote:I reckon it would have a trajectory like a bloody rainbow - I can't see any point in using it other than to see what its like.


Sounds to me like a lot of effort to get the 22LR to do something it's not intended to do. We all know how well things work when you do that...

I can't help but think you'd just be better off buying a small centrefire calibre.
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by Westy » 09 Jul 2014, 7:36 am

I have a couple of boxes in the shed that I bought home with me from the U.S on the last visit, no one stocks it here and it's as rare as the rocking horse @#%$ !

I tell you what guys, don't knock it until you've tried it. It works well on larger type varmints and if your any type of a shot it you can get it to work in any .22, well maybe not a Stirling :lol: :) :lol:
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by Techc » 09 Jul 2014, 3:27 pm

I dunno.

I just say if I wanna shoot heavy .22 pills at larger varmints I'll just use my .223

Works even better :D
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by MeccaOz » 09 Jul 2014, 5:34 pm

Westy wrote:I have a couple of boxes in the shed that I bought home with me from the U.S on the last visit, no one stocks it here and it's as rare as the rocking horse @#%$ !

I tell you what guys, don't knock it until you've tried it. It works well on larger type varmints and if your any type of a shot it you can get it to work in any .22, well maybe not a Stirling :lol: :) :lol:


Thanks Westy,

That's what I hear... They will perform if you do your part. And like you said, I cant find them anywhere.
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by Westy » 09 Jul 2014, 11:05 pm

Techc wrote:I dunno.

I just say if I wanna shoot heavy .22 pills at larger varmints I'll just use my .223

Works even better :D

But it does it so loud???????? :lol: :D :lol:
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by Techc » 11 Jul 2014, 11:36 am

Cant have everything I suppose.

At least it's not too loud. Just gotta make sure you remember to put the earmuffs on when you switch to the magnum after firing the little .223 all day :lol:
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by Westy » 12 Jul 2014, 7:13 am

Techc wrote:Cant have everything I suppose.

At least it's not too loud. Just gotta make sure you remember to put the earmuffs on when you switch to the magnum after firing the little .223 all day :lol:

oh ouch :lol: :D :lol:
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by Techc » 13 Jul 2014, 7:28 pm

I've done it a few times.

I switch to the .308 and fire 2-3 shots before I realise my ears are ringing :lol:
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by Lorgar » 14 Jul 2014, 6:36 pm

I'm pretty good with mine. but when we started hunting my partner always managed to let one off before I could get my earmuffs on.

Standing next to a .243 is loud :lol:
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by Lazarus » 28 Jun 2022, 5:40 pm

I know this is an old thread but I recently tried these out of curiosity and thought I would test them out.

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I have no idea where they went at 50m but I heard one moan away into the next paddock so I moved the target right in to 15m and fired 5 CCI Quite for comparison.

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As with others above I suspected twist as the culprit so I did some googling and apparently they were developed for a 7 twist.

Then I found the video below of someone testing them in a norinco which I think is 14 3/4 twist and he didn't have the tumble I got from the La101 so I have no idea.

https://youtu.be/ybIU-2Pidr8
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by bladeracer » 28 Jun 2022, 6:31 pm

Lazarus wrote:I know this is an old thread but I recently tried these out of curiosity and thought I would test them out.
I have no idea where they went at 50m but I heard one moan away into the next paddock so I moved the target right in to 15m and fired 5 CCI Quite for comparison.
As with others above I suspected twist as the culprit so I did some googling and apparently they were developed for a 7 twist.

Then I found the video below of someone testing them in a norinco which I think is 14 3/4 twist and he didn't have the tumble I got from the La101 so I have no idea.

https://youtu.be/ybIU-2Pidr8


Try cutting the nose off the bullet just ahead of the driving band, might shorten them enough to stabilise.
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by solarpak » 05 Jul 2022, 9:44 pm

Yup - need a faster twist in your .22LR - of the 60 grain slug will "key-hole" through the target.
I tested these through my Weihrauch HW66 - and it couldn't stabilise them.
Tried then through a friends Norinco JW-15 with a 14 twist and shot them a doddle - 5-shot groups at 50 m of around 30mm.

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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by No1_49er » 05 Jul 2022, 10:24 pm

It may well be that a Norinco with its slightly faster twist will stabilise out at 50 mtr. 5 shots around 30mm? What about at 100 mtr, after the velocity has dropped off a bit. Then what?
As for 30mm at 50 mtr, well, my Anschutz chugs along with 1/2 inch groups at 100 mtr.
60gn would certainly be a consideration for silhouettes if stability could be assured.
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by bladeracer » 06 Jul 2022, 9:45 pm

No1_49er wrote:It may well be that a Norinco with its slightly faster twist will stabilise out at 50 mtr. 5 shots around 30mm? What about at 100 mtr, after the velocity has dropped off a bit. Then what?
As for 30mm at 50 mtr, well, my Anschutz chugs along with 1/2 inch groups at 100 mtr.
60gn would certainly be a consideration for silhouettes if stability could be assured.


BC is .140.
In a 16" twist at 950fps it's making 42,750rpm, and is not stable.
In a 14.3" twist Norinco (from what I've read they use 360mm twist) it's making 47,172rpm and is stable.
At 100m it's down to 840fps and making 41,710rpm.
I would guess it's still okay out to 100m, but it might become unstable past there, or it might not. If I could get some I would definitely be testing it myself.

I'll try to remember to make a phone call tomorrow and see if I can get some of these for testing. CCI Standard makes about 70ft-lb at 100m, the SSS makes around 95ft-lb, about 10ft-lb more than a 1235fps 40gn Min-Mag, and about 10ft-lb less than the 1435fps Velocitor.

I don't recall what the energy rule of thumb is to knock the 100m rimfire ram over is but I think accuracy is going to outweigh energy by a good margin, hitting it is the first hurdle.
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by bigpete » 07 Jul 2022, 7:19 am

Wonder how they'd shoot in a squeeze bore barrel ?
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by bladeracer » 07 Jul 2022, 9:13 am

bigpete wrote:Wonder how they'd shoot in a squeeze bore barrel ?


They'd get even longer so it'd need an even tighter twist.
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by bigpete » 07 Jul 2022, 10:47 am

But they'd gain more velocity too....
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by bladeracer » 07 Jul 2022, 7:28 pm

bigpete wrote:But they'd gain more velocity too....


Possibly, but the bullet would also get even longer, requiring an even tighter twist rate.
If you tapered the bore from .223" down to .204", you decrease the base area of the bullet by 17.5%.
If you're making say 24,000psi (SAAMI rating for .22LR - and I would guess a 60gn bullet doing 950fps is going to be up there), the pressure will increase by 17.5% (I think - probably not as linear as that due to the taper) to 28,200psi as the bullet reaches the muzzle, which would exceed the design strength of the action (and the brass case), so you would have to reduce your launch pressure so the final pressure doesn't exceed 24,000psi before the bullet leaves the muzzle.

If the bullet is 16.5mm long at .223" (I scaled it from a sectioned cartridge at .650"), exiting the muzzle at .204" it will be about 20% longer, .780" or 19.8mm, requiring about a 12.5"-twist rate. The Norinco 14.3" twist should stabilise a bullet up to around .720" long. A standard 40gn .22LR bullet is about .465" or 11.8mm - it varies a little by manufacturer.
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by bigpete » 07 Jul 2022, 8:43 pm

bladeracer wrote:
bigpete wrote:But they'd gain more velocity too....


Possibly, but the bullet would also get even longer, requiring an even tighter twist rate.
If you tapered the bore from .223" down to .204", you decrease the base area of the bullet by 17.5%.
If you're making say 24,000psi (SAAMI rating for .22LR - and I would guess a 60gn bullet doing 950fps is going to be up there), the pressure will increase by 17.5% (I think - probably not as linear as that due to the taper) to 28,200psi as the bullet reaches the muzzle, which would exceed the design strength of the action (and the brass case), so you would have to reduce your launch pressure so the final pressure doesn't exceed 24,000psi before the bullet leaves the muzzle.

If the bullet is 16.5mm long at .223" (I scaled it from a sectioned cartridge at .650"), exiting the muzzle at .204" it will be about 20% longer, .780" or 19.8mm, requiring about a 12.5"-twist rate. The Norinco 14.3" twist should stabilise a bullet up to around .720" long. A standard 40gn .22LR bullet is about .465" or 11.8mm - it varies a little by manufacturer.


If all that worked as you say,then wouldn't there be rifles fitted with squeeze bore barrels with stuffed actions or blown cases ? Arthur Langford squeezed them down to .17 with apparently no ill effects even with high velocity 22 ammo. As for if it would stabilise....probably not but you never know unless you try.
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Re: Aguila 60gr .22LR ammunition

Post by bladeracer » 07 Jul 2022, 9:13 pm

bigpete wrote:If all that worked as you say,then wouldn't there be rifles fitted with squeeze bore barrels with stuffed actions or blown cases ? Arthur Langford squeezed them down to .17 with apparently no ill effects even with high velocity 22 ammo. As for if it would stabilise....probably not but you never know unless you try.


I've never seen one of Langford's rifles. Were they standard .22LR actions? Could you use the highest velocity .22LR ammo in them? What barrel lengths did he use? Any idea what twist rate he used? I'd love to see a recovered bullet. The 40gn bullet would come out the muzzle about .690" long - almost 50% longer than it started.

Easy enough to make your own, especially with the CZ455, just put a .22LR reamer into the .172" barrel, and taper the throat to suit.

Actually, I found an article. 1248fp ammo made 1337fps in .204" and 1445fps in .172". That might have been worth messing with back then, but now we have standard .22LR ammo making 1435fps, and it shoots very well in most rifles I've tried it in.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Langsford%27s+squeeze-bore+rimfires%3A+is+this+near-forgotten+idea+too...-a0268869254

"Taper-bores are the stuff dreams are made of. Imagine firing a bullet that begins life as one caliber down a bore that progressively gets smaller and smaller in diameter. What emerges is a bullet of smaller caliber with an improved ballistic coefficient at a relatively high velocity. The late Australian gunsmith and cartridge designer, Arthur Langsford, had a better idea. Why not just dispense with the taper-bore design and simply fire a conventional .22 Long Rifle cartridge down a 17- or 20-caliber barrel and see what you get? What he got is one of the most intriguing stories in rimfire history.

Langsford's earliest rimfire experiments centered around the development of sub-caliber wildcats using unloaded ICI .22 LR shot cases, no less, necking them down to. 17 as his "Minor-Mite" and "Vixen" cartridges as well as his "Tini-Mite" series in .08, .11, .14 and. 17 calibers. The. 17 TiniMite was actually produced and sold in some quantity through his Myra's Sports Store in Broken Hill, Australia. None was quite the commercial success he had hoped for, but Langsford was 20 years or so ahead of the commercial appearance of the 5mm Remington Rimfire Magnum, .17 HMR and .17 on to pursue a better idea.

He reckoned if using a soft lead bullet he might be able to squeeze it down in caliber and still achieve reasonable accuracy as well as higher velocity and an improved bullet form. Jacketed bullets had always proved a problem in taper-bore guns. Some of the better known experiments included the German Gerlich gun using a flanged bullet that gradually collapsed as it progressed down a tapered-bore barrel.

While taper-bore barrels proved expensive and a pain to make and were subsequently abandoned, during bore, anti-tank cannons like the 42mm PAK 41 that fired a 42mm Gerlichtype projectile that left the muzzle as a 30mm shell after having been squeezed down in a smaller diameter, smoothbore portion of the barrel.

In the US, there was also some early work in 1942-43 at the Frankfort Arsenal Laboratory, which focused on the .50 BMG cartridge loaded with sub-caliber 30- and 35-caliber bullets encased in either ventilated, collapsing jackets or disintegrating sabots. While the experiments were terminated in 1943 for more pressing war time priorities, the sabot design did reemerge later as the current .50 BMG Saboted Light Armor Penetrator "SLAP" round.

Extruders

But back to Mr. Langsford and his "Extruders." That's what he called his new cartridge series--the Extruders--actually the "Myra Extruders--"Myra being his wife. Langsford's solution to the squeeze-bore challenge called for the use of a standard diameter 17- caliber or 20-caliber barrel with 1:6.5" to 1:8" twist. While the barrel was chambered for the conventional .22 Long Rifle cartridge, the secret lay in the form of the throat or lead. Langsford designed a forcing cone in the throat that eased the bullet into the smaller bore without damaging it. The picture (sorry, but these were Langsford's original photographs) illustrating the gradual transformation of a .22 bullet into. 17 projectile clearly shows the angle and structure of the forcing cone. He called his squeeze-bore design the "Myra Extruder" and indeed that's just what the process did, it extruded a bullet into a completely new form. Because the extruding process elongated the bullet, the faster twist barrels he used were essential.

In fact, he got a bit carried away with the idea that a faster twist imbued the bullet with greater hydraulic shock, penetration and lethality. It was good marketing, although he seemed to be right about penetration if the photo he sent me showing the comparative impacts of a conventional .22 LR Mini-Mag, .20 and .17 "extruded" Mini-Mags on a 6" steel post is accurate. The .22 LR just splashes against the post while the "Extruders" penetrate fully. Unbiased, third-party tests later did confirm Langsford's claim for improved penetration with the Extruders.

The chronograph and ballistic data Lansford furnished me is interesting. The test gun was a Model 2 Brno fitted with a standard factory barrel and subsequently with .20 and .17 Extruder barrels. The test cartridge was Winchester's Super-X PowerPoint with its 40-grain HP clocking 1,248 fps at the muzzle from the Brno barrel. When "extruded" from the 20-caliber barrel, the muzzle velocity was 1,337 fps and from the 17-caliber barrel, 1,445 fps. Retained energy at 100 yards for the three bullets was 84, 99 and 124 ft-lbs respectfully. Drop at 100 yards, 13.6", 11.6" and 9.6" and with a 10 mph crosswind; deflections at 100 yards for the three bullets were 6.3", 5.4" and 4". Langsford claimed, when compared to the standard Power-Point, the .17 Extruder from the muzzle to 150 yards averaged 20 percent more velocity, 47 percent more energy and 47 percent less wind deflection.

The first question many raised to his Extruders was what about pressure? Squeezing a .22 caliber bullet down to .20 or .17 had to raise pressures. Langsford addressed concerns about excessive pressures in two different ways.

First, he took standard .22 LRHV cartridges and, through a small hole in the case walls, drained out all the powder. He then began trickling powder back into the case and firing the rounds until the bullets were completely extruded through the chamber throat and seated fully in the breech of the 20-caliber barrel. He found it took only 2.5 percent of the original charge to complete the short extrusion. The second was an ad he ran in the April, 1994 issue of the Australian Shooters Journal illustrating a simple, but rather unconventional, pressure gun fixture he invented and presumably was using as a control instrument. The ad copy he sent me had his handwritten note on it, reading "Our latest pressure deflating ad! Regards, Arthur."

Third party testers, experienced no pressure signs when working with the .20 Extruder, but Langsford admitted the .17 Extruder was not consistent when it came to pressures and that possibly an 18-caliber barrel might be optimum; however, he never indicated he had actually built an .18 Extruder. Langsford sent me a very professional and balanced article on the Myra Extruders, written by Warwick Mitchell, and published in Australia's Guns & Game magazine. Mitchell had an opportunity to really wring out the .20 Extruder. He found that depending on the type of .22 LR round being fired, velocities did increase in the Extruder from 25 to 60 fps; penetration in wet newspaper increased from 3-4 cm; trajectories were flatter by about 1" at 100 yards; accuracy ranged from excellent to fair depending upon the parent brand of .22 LR being fired, and the .20 Extruder did deliver more impact energy on the distant rams at the silhouette range.

Mitchell's conclusions were the real potential of Langsford's squeeze bore Extruders lay in developing the smaller, more effective, . 17 or. 18 bore sizes, but that the $475 cost of a new Myra barrel hardly justified the slight improvement offered by the .20 Extruder over a conventional .22 Long Rifle.

While the appearance of the .17 HMR and the .17 Mach 2 made the further development of the Extruder concept unnecessary, the late Arthur Langsford with his remarkable "Extruders" deserves a prominent place in the archives of rimfire history.
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