Shooting Math.....

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Shooting Math.....

Post by 1290 » 26 Sep 2014, 9:55 am

Maths and numbers generally are what shooting is about, from measuring stuff to predicting converting etc. most things shooting can be calculated and or demonstrating and almost always confused....

One shooting related term that is almost always misinterpreted by newbies, and non-newbies alike is the minute of angle measurement. As a rule of thumb a minute of angle is accepted as close enough to an inch at 100yds. Which is close enough, generally.

MoA is not a lineal but an angle measurement, and I consider it a dispersion angle. The measurement of this dispersion on a target at range is what we consider the 'MoA' thing. Note that angle is measured either in decimal x.xx or in fractions being degree, minutes and seconds, so degree of angle, minute of angle and second of angle. Use of the 'of angle' is to prevent confusion, as degree is used for other things, temperature, angle others too. Without getting into radians... a degree is 1/360th of a circle or a full rotation from an origin. A minute is one 60th of a degree and a second is one 60th of a minute.

Image

As far as math goes.... Minute of angle is basic trig, a minute is one sixtieth of a degree(1MoA) measured from the point is discharge, the muzzle, calculated as follows;

{tan rule, opposite on adjacent}
tan(1/60) = dispersion measurement (distance between bullet impacts) [ divide by ] distance.

Resolve for dispersion height(dh) :

tan(1/60) [ multiply by ] distance = dispersion measurement (distance between bullet impacts)

Once you have a unit 'MoA' measurement you can factor it to any distance, so if you insert a range of 1m (as opposed to 100m) you multiply the result for any range in metres. You can also start with yards if you're that way inclined;

Therefore

(Metric)
tan(1/60) [ multiply by ] 1000mm (1.0m distance) = 0.291mm

100m = 29.1mm
1000m = 291mm

(Imperial)
tan(1/60) [ multiply by ] 36 inches (1.0 yd distance) = 0.01047 inch

100yd = 1.05 inch
1000yd = 10.47 inch
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by Wes » 26 Sep 2014, 2:51 pm

1290 wrote:Maths and numbers generally are what shooting is about


I've never heard a more boring description of shooting :lol:
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by VICHunter » 26 Sep 2014, 2:56 pm

1290 wrote:One shooting related term that is almost always misinterpreted by newbies, and non-newbies alike is the minute of angle measurement. As a rule of thumb a minute of angle is accepted as close enough to an inch at 100yds. Which is close enough, generally.


The whole 1moa / 1" overlap at 100 has made it a bit of an interchangeable term (though incorrect obviously).

Reading a few forums it comes up reasonably often when someone is talking groups and thinks they are shooting 1moa/1 inch at 100m, but then is also saying 2moa/2 inch at 200. 3moa/3 inch at 300 and so on for their accuracy.

3moa at 300 isn't anything to phone home about :lol:
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by 1290 » 26 Sep 2014, 3:22 pm

VICHunter wrote:
Reading a few forums it comes up reasonably often when someone is talking groups and thinks they are shooting 1moa/1 inch at 100m, but then is also saying 2moa/2 inch at 200. 3moa/3 inch at 300 and so on for their accuracy.

3moa at 300 isn't anything to phone home about :lol:


You mean 2MoA/4 inch at 200, 3MoA/9 inch at 300...

To be more precise, at 300yds, 1 MoA measures exactly 'Pi' inches....3MoA = 3Pi inches :D
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by rigatoni » 26 Sep 2014, 3:46 pm

Send them along to this VIC, 1290.

MOA calculator

Does range in feet, yards and metres and converts inchs to MOA and vice versa.

Handy :)
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by VICHunter » 26 Sep 2014, 3:50 pm

1290 wrote:
VICHunter wrote:Reading a few forums it comes up reasonably often when someone is talking groups and thinks they are shooting 1moa/1 inch at 100m, but then is also saying 2moa/2 inch at 200. 3moa/3 inch at 300 and so on for their accuracy.


You mean 2MoA/4 inch at 200, 3MoA/9 inch at 300...


Hey, don't shoot the messenger.

I know what they meant, I'm just telling you what they said.
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by mahna » 26 Sep 2014, 3:51 pm

1290 wrote:! MoA measures exactly 'Pi' inches....3MoA = 3Pi inches :D


Ok shutup.

Now you're just trying to confuse us newbs :P
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by dustin » 26 Sep 2014, 3:53 pm

1290, you and Aster will get along fine.

He likes writing topics on how to work out how many billion, zillion, kajillion combinations your password has :lol:
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by Aster » 26 Sep 2014, 3:54 pm

Just don't come crying to me when your stash of nudie pictures get leaked onto the net because your password was "secret" :P
See you on the firing line.
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by Noisydad » 26 Sep 2014, 6:47 pm

Seems a bit like a coffee machine - a really efficient way to may an easy job hard! I just shoulder the rifle, aim and fire! :-)
There's still a few of Wile. E Coyote's ideas that I haven't tried yet.
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by 1290 » 26 Sep 2014, 7:37 pm

rigatoni wrote:Send them along to this VIC, 1290.

MOA calculator

Does range in feet, yards and metres and converts inchs to MOA and vice versa.

Handy :)


Converters are handy..... but they don't tell you the how.... :)
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by 1290 » 26 Sep 2014, 7:38 pm

dustin wrote:1290, you and Aster will get along fine.

He likes writing topics on how to work out how many billion, zillion, kajillion combinations your password has :lol:


Hey, at least I didn't quote pi to 27 decimal places.... you know, for accuracy and that.. :D
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by tom604 » 26 Sep 2014, 8:04 pm

sorry, whats the topic about?,,i started to read it and got to,,,,maths,,,, and then i fell asleep :lol:
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by Westy » 26 Sep 2014, 9:21 pm

rigatoni wrote:Send them along to this VIC, 1290.

MOA calculator

Does range in feet, yards and metres and converts inchs to MOA and vice versa.

Handy :)


Hey I like that app

I shot 3 rounds with my 6.5 today at 0.232 MOA

s**t I'm good!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by Joom » 27 Sep 2014, 7:49 am

So... How was the other 3 round group?

C'mon, fess up :P
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by Westy » 27 Sep 2014, 12:21 pm

Joom wrote:So... How was the other 3 round group?

C'mon, fess up :P


1 hit a car in the carpark, another hit the target of the guy next to me in the bullseye and the last was MIA! :o 8-) :shock:
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by Joom » 28 Sep 2014, 8:17 am

Hook shot for the carpark needed though.

That's a tough shot! :lol:
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by 1290 » 28 Sep 2014, 10:25 am

Energy

#if you don't like numbers units and calculations, turn away now#

Energy or kinetic energy of the projectile, represent the amount of work required to accelerate the mass to a velocity, and therefore that equivalent energy is available due to the motion of the object to therefore be imparted on the target....this is important for comparing downrange energy for different loadings or chamberings, say a lighter-faster bullet to a heavier-slower one.

Generally the muzzle energy is used as a comparison, but the energy at range can also be calculated if you know the anticipated velocity at that point.

Calculated by using the metric equation -
KE = ½ x mass(kg) x Velocity (metres per second or m/s or ms-1[-1 superscript]) squared

The resultant unit kg(m/s)squared aka Joule or J. (Joule is also used on electrical and heat energy, you might see it used on your power bill)

Problem with using neat metric equation (many readers on another thread have suggested we should use metric only, stuff the imperial) is that the common units of mass and velocity are not SI units, or international system of metres, kilograms so you need to convert these....

Example
300gr (grain) projectile at 3000fps (feet per second)
What to do?

Grain to kilogram conversion;
First convert to pounds for simplicity, as there are 7000 grains in a pound-
300gr/7000gr = 0.0429lb
(lb is the abbreviation for pound, being from the ancient Roman unit of 'libra' which is as far as I'm aware translated to 'book'...)

from pound to kilogram ([lb] x [kg per lb]);
0.0429lb x 0.45359237 kg per lb = 0.0194kg (19.4g)

Combining in one swift calculation; gr → kg

gr x 0.45359237 / 7000 …... simplified to
gr / 15432....... 300 / 15432 = 0.0194kg

fps (feet per second) to m/s (metres per second) conversion

how many metres in a foot? (1000)/(12*25.4) = 3.2808
therefore 3000fps / 3.2808 = 914.4m/s

So therefore, back to the energy calculation
300gr = 0.0194kg and 3000fps = 914.4m/s
into the KE equation goes
KE = ½ x 0.0194 x 914.4squared = 8110 Joule (J)

What about imperial? Yes, you can go straight there with the following equation;
Energy (foot pound force)
= mass(lb) x velocity(fps)squared / 64.326
or
= mass(gr) x velocity(fps)squared / 450282

=300 x 3000squared / 450282 = 5996 ftlb.f

Converting between metric and imperial energy units;
J > ftlbf = J x 0.7378
ftlbf > J = ftlbf x 1.3554

Yes, we have online converters..... some want to know how.

Coming up, recoil forces, free recoil, recoil velocity...if you're interested of course.
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by Baronvonrort » 28 Sep 2014, 12:28 pm

Yes please do recoil in various calibers and projectiles for those calibers.
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by 1290 » 29 Sep 2014, 10:39 am

Baronvonrort wrote:Yes please do recoil in various calibers and projectiles for those calibers.


Like this?

Image

These are ADI loads, except the rimfire which is Winchester....rifle mass are all the same to allow direct comparison of recoil, even the Browning (most likely would be 3 or 4 times that mass in reality) In a 30 pound rifle the Browning free recoil would be about 160J(120Ftlbf)...

I will later post a description of the workings for recoil and recoil velocity....
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by loopal » 29 Sep 2014, 11:25 am

1290 wrote:#if you don't like numbers units and calculations, turn away now#


Backing away slowly... :lol:
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by cavok » 29 Sep 2014, 1:17 pm

Great topic, and we also when shooting calculate and factor in the Coriolis Effect, So much to remember, no longer able to just load and shoot. Back to the drawing board. Lol. Need to me inserted a smiley face.
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by Baronvonrort » 29 Sep 2014, 1:53 pm

Nah not like that 1290, we want to see you do the maths....lol
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by 1290 » 29 Sep 2014, 2:10 pm

Baronvonrort wrote:Nah not like that 1290, we want to see you do the maths....lol


What, like a youtube video or just text of the workings :D
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by Baronvonrort » 29 Sep 2014, 3:15 pm

1290 wrote:
Baronvonrort wrote:Nah not like that 1290, we want to see you do the maths....lol


What, like a youtube video or just text of the workings :D


We have to see the texts showing how you worked it out...lol.

It's all cool, that pic gave all the info, someone else has done all the hard work.

The ballistics calculators have taken the work out of projectile motion, life is much easier these days.
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by RealNick » 30 Sep 2014, 10:57 am

JBM ballistics is a life saver :D
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by 1290 » 01 Oct 2014, 11:08 am

OK, here's the behind the numbers part,

Recoil energy

The recoil energy is referred to as the 'free' recoil and is the opposite reaction to the discharge of the firearm, it is not dependent on the shape of the stock, the way you hold it... its the absolute energy you will 'feel' when you discharge the firearm neglecting all other countering actions such as friction... so if the rifle is on roller bearings you would feel the whole of this effect.

The energy is derived from the projectile as well as the burning propellant, which is assigned a fixed velocity of 1585m/s representing the deflagration velocity, which is the velocity of the flame front or shockwave of the burning powder.

E(J) = [ (mp.vp + mc.vc) / 1000 ]2 / 2mr

Mass projectile (g) x Velocity (m/s) + Mass powder (g) x Velocity powder (m/s)

divide answer by 1000 (to convert to kg, SI units!)

Square answer (multiply by itself)

Divide answer by 2

Divide answer by rifle mass (kg)

There you will have it, free recoil energy in Joule (J)!

Example;

Projectile mass: 19.44g (300gr)
Projectile velocity: 914.4m/s (3000fps)
Propellant mass: 6.48g (100gr)
Propellant velocity: 1585m/s (5200fps)
Rifle Mass 4.08kg (9lb)

Do the math;

( 19.44 g x 914.4 m/s ) + ( 6.48 g x 1585 m/s ) = 28047

28047 / 1000 = 28.047

28.047 squared = 786.62

786.62 / 2 = 393.31

393.31/4.08 = 96.4

Free recoil energy = 96.4 J for the above example.


Now, many aficionados will be having conniptions about now due to the lack of feet and pounds, so;

IMPERIAL UNITS (foot-pound-force)

Imperially speaking, the calculation is similar to the above, the only differences are the 5200fps charge velocity and the use of the gravitational constant not required with the metric method; 32.174. The unit is a force.

We (Americanized shooters) prefer to input grain units, so pound conversion has to be considered along with the grav constant as well as the 2 divisor so we can clump those constants together to get the following simplest form;

F(ftlb.f) = ( mp.vp + mc.vc )2 / ( mr x 7000 x 2 x G )

[ Mass projectile (gr) x Velocity (fps) + Mass powder (gr) x Velocity powder (fps) ] squared

All divided by

[Rifle mass (lb) x 7000(grains per pound)squared x 2 x 32.174 (grav const.)]

divisor simplified to;
[Rifle mass (lb) x 7000(squared) x 64.348]

inserting the values from the previous example;

(300x3000 + 100x5200 ) / (9 x 7000x7000x64.348)
= 71.1ftlbf

There you will have it, free recoil force in the old units....!

((I'm sure someone will let me know if there are any errors up there^^))
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Re: Shooting Math.....

Post by riggee » 01 Oct 2014, 1:45 pm

I'm sure everyone appreciates the effort... Who's gunna double check all that though :lol:

Maybe it's just me and my little brain. Best firearm I could come up with is probably a slingshot :D
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