Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

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Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by saucy » 07 Oct 2014, 1:59 pm

Everyone's read the last lead smelter in the US closed a while ago I'm sure.

I forget when it is but the US Military has said it won't be using lead ammo in a certain number of years time.

So lead is on the way out... The question is, what will happen to existing bullets and hand loads once they're made to change?

Will everyone have to find a new bullet and work it up from scratch or do you reckon they'll just swap over to solid copper and continue.

What I mean is (to pick a random bullet as an example) Hornady make their SST which has a lead core. Will they just make the exact same bullet dimensions and design but in solid copper? And would you just drop that into your existing loads?

(I know I'm getting really far ahead of myself now :))
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by Chronos » 07 Oct 2014, 2:04 pm

No, a solid copper bullet will weigh much less and cost much more than a jacketed lead bullet.

What was a 100gr bullet will now weigh just 85gr (not real numbers, just an example)

To get 100gr an all copper bullet would be much longer, too long for your rifles magazine.

What will happen ? Who knows. There's a lot if lead to be dug up and recycled yet. Don't worry, you can bet china, India and Brazil will take up the Americans slack.

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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by 1290 » 07 Oct 2014, 3:26 pm

another case of the environmentalists (EPA) saving the planet by imposing conditions on the industry that could not practically be complied with. The reasoning that transferring an industry offshore to a nation with limit or no enviro controls..... just doesnt fly with most but anyway, its seen as a huge with by the tards the world over...

But dont fear, as a great deal of lead used in industry is from recycled lead, batteries etc and not virgin lead. As long as we use lead acid batteries, there will be plenty of lead for bullets.

The army moving to green bullets is just another facet of our existence that the greens are 'fixing'

There are lead replacements for bullet, but they are generally more expensive, thats a problem.

Copper is 79% the relative density of lead, so yes, a Lead (symbol Pb short for the latin name Plumbum, thats where 'plumber' comes from.... ;) ) bullet made of Copper of the same shape would have a mass 79% of the lead example so would need to be 26% larger in volume for the equivalent mass....
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by yoshie » 07 Oct 2014, 7:35 pm

They're already on the market, I'd say it would be a gradual shift from lead to the copper/copper alloy alternative. I can see ranges banning lead due to pressure from green groups, that will ultimately be the driving force. I could also see the government banning lead bullets for hunting just like they have started banning lead shot in Vic. Some public servant will decide the police and defence shouldn't use environmentally nasty lead and they will change too.
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by on_one_wheel » 07 Oct 2014, 9:39 pm

Why not a copper jacketed bismuth projectile ? Is it bismuth too hard perhaps ? ?.. personally I've got enough lead projectiles to last me two lifetime's.
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by 1290 » 08 Oct 2014, 8:03 am

Bismuth is also toxic, and 4x more expensive then copper and 12x more than lead.... so the $$ are obviously a big factor.

When the rules of war changed to require non-expanding projectiles, ie. fmj as opposed to the favoured soft points.... getting caught with a dum dum was considered a war crime, hanging probably followed ..... The day might come when being caught with lead bullet will be considered as such...
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by Gregg » 08 Oct 2014, 2:08 pm

saucy wrote:(I know I'm getting really far ahead of myself now :))


Just a decade or two before we probably need to look into it :lol:
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by yoshie » 08 Oct 2014, 2:14 pm

Gregg wrote:
saucy wrote:(I know I'm getting really far ahead of myself now :))


Just a decade or two before we probably need to look into it :lol:


Some of the ranges in capital cities have had to put in place management programs to deal with lead toxicity 'problems'( Majura, Belmont). Particularly were water courses run through their range. It's not too far off.
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by Swarm » 09 Oct 2014, 3:27 pm

Find a copy of the current SSAA magazine and there is an article on "next generation bullets" that will give you some info.
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by bunnybuster » 18 Oct 2014, 12:47 pm

Barnes TSX is a copper alloy projectile,about 80c buys 70gr in .224,3 times the cost of a conventional bullet,but I'm told they have devestating

performance way beyond thier size.As for lead,I have about 2 lifetimes useage in store,

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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by nonvalid » 27 Oct 2014, 4:01 am

I think it all depends on whether or not there is a nation v nation war within the next 20 years. Its all well and good to want environmentally friendly ways of killing others, but when push comes to shove and the env. friendly source material is in short supply, lead FMJs will be back on the menu faster than you can blink.
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by halberg » 27 Oct 2014, 4:03 pm

Factory closure aside, any idea how much lead is already mined and stockpiled? Enough to last years to come surely.
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by Khan » 27 Oct 2014, 4:07 pm

I don't really see it going to tell you the truth.

Little bit of mining info here...

Lead's typically gotten from copper, zinc and silver ore which they'll continue to mine and process with lead left over. It's not mined for specifically like gold, iron etc.

They'll have the lead anyway from other processing, it's not a matter of going out and getting it specifically like gold.

As long as someone can turn it into a saleable product i.e. bullets, they'll continue to buy it.
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by cavok » 27 Oct 2014, 5:07 pm

Maybe not in America, as many find it cheaper to buy ammunition but here in Australia, possibly mostly pistol shooting, western action and some rifle shooting many shooters pride themselves on making their own projectiles. Not so much the expense for them it's a 2nd hobby, or third reloading. Lead is here in abundance, most, not all wheel weights are still lead, and for some strange reason lyno type is still available, ingots are in abundance of lead. A friend of mine makes enough for himself and a few close friends, and there are many more who do the same.
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by North East » 27 Oct 2014, 5:52 pm

Depleted uranium, why not? It is used in munitions throughout the world, mainly armour piercing.

Probably wouldn't be recommended for civilian use though.
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by bigfellascott » 27 Oct 2014, 6:13 pm

I've got a couple of packets of the BT Energetics Projectiles to test out - they are made from recycled 22 brass from my understanding and are quite explosive too, should be an interesting little test out of the 250! :lol: Thanks again G if your reading, still haven't got around to giving em a run but will do soon.
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by Bennybigbores » 27 Oct 2014, 6:29 pm

Can always do what we did as kids when we ran out of air rifle pellets, next best option on the farm hrs from the gunshop chook pellets, quite a few very unlucky starlings fell to might of the deadly chook pellet, don't know how the 6mm pellets would go in front of 44grs or ar2209 ????
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by Westy » 27 Oct 2014, 7:50 pm

saucy wrote:Everyone's read the last lead smelter in the US closed a while ago I'm sure.

I forget when it is but the US Military has said it won't be using lead ammo in a certain number of years time.

So lead is on the way out... The question is, what will happen to existing bullets and hand loads once they're made to change?

Will everyone have to find a new bullet and work it up from scratch or do you reckon they'll just swap over to solid copper and continue.

What I mean is (to pick a random bullet as an example) Hornady make their SST which has a lead core. Will they just make the exact same bullet dimensions and design but in solid copper? And would you just drop that into your existing loads?

(I know I'm getting really far ahead of myself now :))

And when I turn 17 they will have flying cars and we wont have any world poverty and I guess we won't need lead as we will all have ray guns!!!! :lol: :D :lol: No lead smelter's in the U.s as they want to keep their backyard clean and bugger up India and the likes yard!!!! Bet they have afew new ones South of the boarder in Mexico right next door to the Remington and the new Savage Factory's :lol: :lol: :lol:

Here read this and tell me about the lead shortage again????

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/ ... SW20140623

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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by Tiiger » 28 Oct 2014, 1:10 pm

North East wrote:Depleted uranium, why not? It is used in munitions throughout the world, mainly armour piercing.

Probably wouldn't be recommended for civilian use though.


Stating the obvious that we won't be allowed it of course...

"Scary factor" aside... Do you know is there any special handling, storage shielding etc. required for it?

How "depleted" is depleted exactly?

One of the issues (as I understand it, not an expert by any means) with nuclear power is that the output required to generate power is much higher than the amount needed to kill you with exposure. Once they're finishes with the rods in power plants they don't become paperweights of course.

So where is the uranium for the rounds come from? How is it depleted?

Could we safely handle and shoot it the same way we do regular ammo?
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by Westy » 28 Oct 2014, 1:54 pm

Maybe we need something like this???

http://youtu.be/9YT7OLr9orw
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by North East » 28 Oct 2014, 2:45 pm

Tiiger wrote:Stating the obvious that we won't be allowed it of course...

"Scary factor" aside... Do you know is there any special handling, storage shielding etc. required for it?

How "depleted" is depleted exactly?

One of the issues (as I understand it, not an expert by any means) with nuclear power is that the output required to generate power is much higher than the amount needed to kill you with exposure. Once they're finishes with the rods in power plants they don't become paperweights of course.

So where is the uranium for the rounds come from? How is it depleted?

Could we safely handle and shoot it the same way we do regular ammo?


I'm no expert on the use depleted uranium but it is a pretty controversial subject. Widely used around the world for armour piercing projectiles. USA have used it a lot in weapons systems as have other countries.

Some time ago a French racing yacht had a depleted uranium keel. It is very dense and heavy.

The effects of its use is widely debated with reports of soldiers and civilians being contaminated and poisoned by the after effects of it's use.

Better look for something else to replace the lead and not depleted uranium.
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by keen » 28 Oct 2014, 3:24 pm

I've got all my marbles (the glass ones, not the ones in my head) from when I was a kid.

Load those up? :D
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by 1290 » 28 Oct 2014, 8:43 pm

North East wrote:
Tiiger wrote:Stating the obvious that we won't be allowed it of course...

"Scary factor" aside... Do you know is there any special handling, storage shielding etc. required for it?

How "depleted" is depleted exactly?

One of the issues (as I understand it, not an expert by any means) with nuclear power is that the output required to generate power is much higher than the amount needed to kill you with exposure. Once they're finishes with the rods in power plants they don't become paperweights of course.

So where is the uranium for the rounds come from? How is it depleted?

Could we safely handle and shoot it the same way we do regular ammo?


I'm no expert on the use depleted uranium but it is a pretty controversial subject. Widely used around the world for armour piercing projectiles. USA have used it a lot in weapons systems as have other countries.

Some time ago a French racing yacht had a depleted uranium keel. It is very dense and heavy.

The effects of its use is widely debated with reports of soldiers and civilians being contaminated and poisoned by the after effects of it's use.

Better look for something else to replace the lead and not depleted uranium.


Depleted Uranium or DU is simply not as radioactive as your run of the mill Uranium 235....IT IS still radioactive, just less of the worse kind of radiationis (Gamma). Why it so effective as a penetrator - its almost twice the density of lead. Imagine your 150grain 308 projectile , same size shape volume in DU would be a 300gr bullet....
Uranium is inherently toxic just as lead is but with the radiation bonus.....

Heard of Gulf War Syndrome?? GI are getting very ill... cant work it out!!?

US Military - irradiating the middle east for almost 25 years!!

Once the fuel rods are finished with in the power plants they are certainly not inert....the radioactivity in the material, whether Uranium, Plutonium or other element or isotope is considered to have a half-life, which is the time taken for the radiation to reduce/dissipate to half the original level, measured in years, from seconds to ..... THE AGE OF THE EARTH...
U235 half life is 700,000,000years!.... with the rate of reduction reducing over time, so the radiation level asymptotically approaches towards zero....but never reaches it, yay to radiation!

Chernobyl will never be radiation free.

DU is not actually spent fuel, by the by-product of the fuel production (enrichment process) when the differing densities are used the separate the different isotopes....

No DU projjies for me thanks!
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by Oldbloke » 28 Oct 2014, 9:03 pm

DU projectiles? I would need a bloody long safe operating procedure before I considered them. Almost as deadly to the giver as it is to the receiver! :(
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by SendIt » 29 Oct 2014, 2:53 pm

Tungsten projectiles.

Just as good but only dangerous on the recipients end.
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by Westy » 29 Oct 2014, 4:28 pm

SendIt wrote:Tungsten projectiles.

Just as good but only dangerous on the recipients end.


Tungsten's pretty hard, no mushroom effect might be alright on paper but how about the effect on your barrel life?

Imagine what it would be like in a 6.5-284 those were the best 10 shots of my life???? :lol: :D :lol:
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by SendIt » 30 Oct 2014, 1:56 pm

Actually you're correct, I've oversimplified things saying tungsten bullets are the same as depleted uranium. This isn't quite the case.

(Forewarning: I haven't done side by side tests with armour piercing ammo, uranium etc. of course. This is just my understanding of such things. At the risk of sounding like a know-it-all forum jockey I'll continue...)

Tungsten is a denser material than uranium, but still mushrooms much like traditional bullet with enough resistance, which reduces penetration to some extent.

Uranium fractures in a way which makes the round self sharpening, so better for penetration. There is a fancy word for it which I've forgotten but once the round penetrates and is exposed to the air again the heat causes it to ignite causing more mayhem for the target. e.g. being inside an armoured vehicle when a flaming uranium rounds comes ripping through.

Saying all that, it's rarely actually been used as far as I know. The US had a run with them but have long since swapped to tungsten or titanium rounds or alloys for their armour piercing stuff. As far as penetration and overall damage goes, uranium is the winner, but I guess the associated hazards outweigh the benefits. Other countries have used them too no doubt but I don't know of anywhere using in as their regular loadout.

These days DU rounds are only really for tacticool kids to drool over AFAIK. Not really used anywhere?
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by Lyam » 30 Oct 2014, 1:57 pm

SendIt wrote:There is a fancy word for it which I've forgotten but once the round penetrates and is exposed to the air again the heat causes it to ignite causing more mayhem for the target


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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by Vati » 30 Oct 2014, 1:57 pm

SendIt wrote:These days DU rounds are only really for tacticool kids to drool over AFAIK. Not really used anywhere?


Maybe some milsurp floating around in durka durka stan.
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Re: Hand loads when there are no more lead bullets

Post by Pennsylvania Yank » 05 Mar 2015, 10:12 pm

It's has been a triple pronged attack by the Left in America on the supply of 5.56mm ammunition. Petition the EPA to ban lead bullets out of environmental concerns, then attempt to ban much of the the inexpensive, heavy hardened steel core, steel tipped, and alloy bullets that replace lead, in some cases because they have twisted the legal definition of "armor piercing". Refuse to grant a "sporting use" exemption that the law allows for, while claiming that it threatens the safety of law enforcement(without a shred of evidence to back that assertion). On top of that, use Defense Department resources to periodically destroy large surplus stocks of once-fired brass casings instead of selling them to commercial reloaders.
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