So why do we have full metal jacket bullets at all?

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So why do we have full metal jacket bullets at all?

Post by jeener » 05 Nov 2014, 7:46 am

Match hollow points are best for targets, yes?

Something that expands for hunting to dump all its energy but FMJ bullets pencil through.

So... What are they for? Do they just make full metal jacket because they're easy? Cheap?
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Re: So why do we have full metal jacket bullets at all?

Post by mausermate » 05 Nov 2014, 8:02 am

FMJ for military use mainly I think.
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Re: So why do we have full metal jacket bullets at all?

Post by Jack V » 05 Nov 2014, 8:11 am

Geneva convention outlawed the use of other types of projectiles but most Military in the past recognised anyway that it is better to wound an enemy rather than to kill them. That means that more man power and money is taken up by caring for the wounded. Fairly callous approach but there it is. Also a FMJ has a smaller meplat area compared to some other types this assists longer range BC and penetration of helmets , webbing , packs , walls etc. In this day and age say fighting terrorism the situation has changed and the wounding tactic is no longer of any advantage .
Some large game bullets are still FMJ design to assist in penetrating thick bone , hide and muscle .
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Re: So why do we have full metal jacket bullets at all?

Post by 1290 » 05 Nov 2014, 8:42 am

FMJs to keep you alive during a 'war'.... if found with soft point/expanding bullets you'd be punished, it was death years ago...

Technically the spitzer pointed (FMJ) bullets are most streamlined as such are very good for target, some hollow points though have such a fine hollow they are just as if not more streamlined...

FMJs came aboutaround the turn of the last century when it was determined that soft point were not sufficiently 'gentleman-like' in war.. In such wars as the Zulu and Boer war, particularly the Zulu and other native wars were the big fat soft 45cal projectiles were removing limbs, causing huge wounds, exploding skulls etc, it was decided that a jacketed/pointed (non-expanding) bullet was the way to go as a new set of cricket rules.... If caught with dum-dum'ed (term used from Dum Dum Arsenal India) ie, a modified to expand fmj you'd be in the ****** big time.

This was decided at the Hague Convention (not Geneva) 1899?? on the Laws and customs of War on Land.....good read....

Rules apply between signatories, I've heard it said that although Afghanistan is a party to the agreement, the Talliwackers are not hence the return (just quietly) to hollow point sniping bullets... whether this is true or not...
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Re: So why do we have full metal jacket bullets at all?

Post by Silver87 » 05 Nov 2014, 9:01 am

I read an interesting article some time ago about the the use of BTHP Sierra matchking projectiles for military sniping use. It was found that the small hallow point isn't an aid to expansion but an artifact from the manufacturing proccess which makes them legal for armed combat as per the Hague Convention. Further more FMJ is a more robust projectile, making them less susceptible to rounded off or broken tips making them serviceible for decades and even centuries (click... bang ;) )
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Re: So why do we have full metal jacket bullets at all?

Post by Chronos » 05 Nov 2014, 9:20 am

Silver87 wrote:I read an interesting article some time ago about the the use of BTHP Sierra matchking projectiles for military sniping use. It was found that the small hallow point isn't an aid to expansion but an artifact from the manufacturing proccess which makes them legal for armed combat as per the Hague Convention. Further more FMJ is a more robust projectile, making them less susceptible to rounded off or broken tips making them serviceible for decades and even centuries (click... bang ;) )



In some situations hollow point bullets like SMK ( not to be confused with hollow point hunting bullets) have another advantage. Because if the way they're made (cup is formed, lead core added then the ogive and meplat formed) the tip tends to be hollow. When an object is hit, think personal/home defence the tip is deformed and the bullet will tumble, shedding its jacket and energy in the target. This Is sometimes called a "j hook" because of the internal ballistic trajectory. This is desirable in these situations because it reduces the chance of complete penetration and secondary injury.

This also makes light jacketed hollow points less suitable for hunting as weight retention and penetration is poor.

As for FMJ I believe the posts about military use if SP bullets BUT I'd dare say they are also the cheapest jacketed bullet to manufacture.

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Re: So why do we have full metal jacket bullets at all?

Post by MeccaOz » 05 Nov 2014, 10:13 am

Open Tip Mouth OTM hollow pionts arent for hunting either, they are designed not to expand either, but I think there what your talking about, Chronos. FMJ = Penetration, also on our rifle range they only allow them, not sure why though.
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Re: So why do we have full metal jacket bullets at all?

Post by Hucka » 05 Nov 2014, 10:14 am

Jack V wrote:Geneva convention outlawed the use of other types of projectiles but most Military in the past recognised anyway that it is better to wound an enemy rather than to kill them. That means that more man power and money is taken up by caring for the wounded. Fairly callous approach but there it is.


This is just what I've read, but I believe it was also done for the benefit of the soliders as strange as it sounds.

In WW1, WW2 etc. most of guys there were there because they were forced to be, not because they wanted to be. Not everyone was a fanatical, genocidal nazi ready to die for their cause.

A FMJ is still enough to take them out of the picture as a combatant, but didn't blow of a limb or do massive tissue/spinal damage. Once the war is over the wounded can recover and have a normal life instead of being a cripple or amputee.

It let average joe come home in one piece more often once it was done.
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Re: So why do we have full metal jacket bullets at all?

Post by Chronos » 05 Nov 2014, 11:54 am

MeccaOz wrote:Open Tip Mouth OTM hollow pionts arent for hunting either, they are designed not to expand either, but I think there what your talking about, Chronos. FMJ = Penetration, also on our rifle range they only allow them, not sure why though.


Not sure what you think I mean :lol:

I'm talking about varmint hollow points designed for rapid explanation like those produced by Berger versus hollow point target bullets like sierra match king HPBT's

As for FMJ use on ranges I think you'll find that mainly applies to ranges with stop butts where people stand to pull targets. I believe the logic here is that SP and HP bullets are much more likely to fragment upon hitting a target frame and injure the personnel in the stop butts

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Re: So why do we have full metal jacket bullets at all?

Post by Warrigul » 05 Nov 2014, 12:13 pm

MeccaOz wrote:Open Tip Mouth OTM hollow pionts arent for hunting either, they are designed not to expand either, but I think there what your talking about, Chronos. FMJ = Penetration, also on our rifle range they only allow them, not sure why though.


FMJ do a lot less damage to a target frame, much less splintering but it isn'y a huge safety issue as the debris gets carried back into the stop butt- usually. I have spent a lot of time marking in the butts and repairing frames, I used to dread the week or two before deer season when zeros were being checked but soft points aren't much worse than hollow nosed target projectiles.

Mind you the only thing that really protects a target frame is accurate shooting.
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Re: So why do we have full metal jacket bullets at all?

Post by Timb0 » 05 Nov 2014, 12:16 pm

FMJ are quite good if your shooting for furs as they don't blow things apart.
W.D.M Bell ( a famous elephant hunter) often used FMJ's for their deep penetration. He was obsessed with shot placement however.
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Re: So why do we have full metal jacket bullets at all?

Post by Jack V » 05 Nov 2014, 12:19 pm

1290 wrote:FMJs to keep you alive during a 'war'.... if found with soft point/expanding bullets you'd be punished, it was death years ago...

Technically the spitzer pointed (FMJ) bullets are most streamlined as such are very good for target, some hollow points though have such a fine hollow they are just as if not more streamlined...

FMJs came aboutaround the turn of the last century when it was determined that soft point were not sufficiently 'gentleman-like' in war.. In such wars as the Zulu and Boer war, particularly the Zulu and other native wars were the big fat soft 45cal projectiles were removing limbs, causing huge wounds, exploding skulls etc, it was decided that a jacketed/pointed (non-expanding) bullet was the way to go as a new set of cricket rules.... If caught with dum-dum'ed (term used from Dum Dum Arsenal India) ie, a modified to expand fmj you'd be in the ****** big time.


This was decided at the Hague Convention (not Geneva) 1899?? on the Laws and customs of War on Land.....good read....

Rules apply between signatories, I've heard it said that although Afghanistan is a party to the agreement, the Talliwackers are not hence the return (just quietly) to hollow point sniping bullets... whether this is true or not...

I thought it was Geneva Convention 1864 but you could be right.
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Re: So why do we have full metal jacket bullets at all?

Post by mausermate » 05 Nov 2014, 12:31 pm

FYI. F
Hague Convention of 1899.
Declaration concerning the Prohibition of the Use of Bullets which can Easily Expand or Change their Form inside the Human Body such as Bullets with a Hard Covering which does not Completely Cover the Core, or containing Indentations

This declaration states that, in any war between signatory powers, the parties will abstain from using "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body." Ratified by all major powers, except the United States
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Re: So why do we have full metal jacket bullets at all?

Post by Brute » 05 Nov 2014, 9:00 pm

Warrigul wrote:Mind you the only thing that really protects a target frame is accurate shooting.


I can vouch for that.

In my early shooting days no frame was safe! :lol:
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Re: So why do we have full metal jacket bullets at all?

Post by Jack V » 06 Nov 2014, 6:56 am

No it don't because the other shooters can hit your frame even if you don't , especially 22 rimfire ricochets from the 50 meter line .
If you play around with scopes a lot then it's almost inevitable that you will hit your frame some time sighting in .
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Re: So why do we have full metal jacket bullets at all?

Post by Warrigul » 06 Nov 2014, 10:05 am

Jack V wrote:No it don't because the other shooters can hit your frame even if you don't , especially 22 rimfire ricochets from the 50 meter line .
If you play around with scopes a lot then it's almost inevitable that you will hit your frame some time sighting in .


I was referring more to the Fullbore range, even a properly bore sighted rifle is USUALLLY somewhere on target at 1 or 200, the problem with the upcoming deer season every year is all the blokes who only ever shoot a handful of times each year(and there is nothing wrong with this) come out to play and the results can be somewhat less accurate than an F standard shoot.

We don't mind but I used to prefer to have a s**ty old frame ready to start using.
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Re: So why do we have full metal jacket bullets at all?

Post by maxi » 06 Nov 2014, 10:45 am

1290 wrote:FMJs came aboutaround the turn of the last century when it was determined that soft point were not sufficiently 'gentleman-like' in war..


Back in the good old days when killing each other was no excuse for being rude :lol:
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